On ISDs vs Fighters as the Imperial Doctrine.

Maybe a wing of fighters could take down a Star Destroyer, if it wasn't protected by its fighter complement, but that doesn't really mean you won. You cannot take over a space station with fighters. You cannot liberate a planet with fighters. You cannot save civilians with fighters. You cannot pose a threat to a city with fighters. Fighters do one thing. The hint is in the name.

Maybe you can do a hyperspace hit and run, to destroy a lone star destroyer on patrol, but what is the point of that? There are tens of thousands of them. The Empire isn't going to miss one of them. But every fighter lost is very costly to the rebellion.

This is why rebels do hit and run missions, this is why they are reluctant to go into actual battles... because they know they can't win. This is why they can't really go and liberate planets. They might be able to take out a few factories, space stations, free a few prisoners etc, but they have no chance in a proper war.

The rebels can only win because the plot demands it. Because imperials have to start killing each other, and be ignorant about their past mistakes, and some key figures have to turn traitor, etc. There is no way they could have achieved a military victory against the empire.

2 hours ago, RufusDaMan said:

On ISDs vs Fighters as the Imperial Doctrine.

Maybe a wing of fighters could take down a Star Destroyer, if it wasn't protected by its fighter complement, but that doesn't really mean you won. You cannot take over a space station with fighters. You cannot liberate a planet with fighters. You cannot save civilians with fighters. You cannot pose a threat to a city with fighters. Fighters do one thing. The hint is in the name.

Maybe you can do a hyperspace hit and run, to destroy a lone star destroyer on patrol, but what is the point of that? There are tens of thousands of them. The Empire isn't going to miss one of them. But every fighter lost is very costly to the rebellion.

This is why rebels do hit and run missions, this is why they are reluctant to go into actual battles... because they know they can't win. This is why they can't really go and liberate planets. They might be able to take out a few factories, space stations, free a few prisoners etc, but they have no chance in a proper war.

The rebels can only win because the plot demands it. Because imperials have to start killing each other, and be ignorant about their past mistakes, and some key figures have to turn traitor, etc. There is no way they could have achieved a military victory against the empire.

Psh, tell that to Rogue Squadron. They did all those things in T-65s AND give toys to all the good kids in the galaxy once a year.

3 hours ago, RufusDaMan said:

Maybe you can do a hyperspace hit and run, to destroy a lone star destroyer on patrol, but what is the point of that? There are tens of thousands of them. The Empire isn't going to miss one of them

The empire has tens of thousands star destroyers. A million or so capital ships. And there are 20,000,0000 species in the galaxy, nearly 20,000,000 developed homeworlds and countless colonies. The empire, with all its military might, is spread thin. They do not even have a single capital ship per system they control. A sector fleet covers over a thousand systems with just a dozen or so star destroyers.

The rebels at the other hand can gain support from countless worlds. They are still short on everything, but they are able to fight the enemy on countless fronts.

At any rate, the ISD just simply isn't meant to be a pushover. The very first scene of Star Wars shown on film shoved it right in your face that the Star Destroyer was meant to be an overwhelming force compared to what the Rebellion was equipped with. The introductory scene of the Executor similarly was meant to show the threat of the ISD by having it serve as a point of comparison to the largest ship we've seen on screen. It's not a jack-of-all-trades, it's an ace of all of them. This is why Legends had the production line of the ISD taking up a sizable portion of the Imperial budget. Each one was supposed to cost more than the annual GDP of entire star systems!

I can take the bit of guile that we saw in Rogue One, I can take the bit of luck and plot armor that we've seen in Rebels, but I don't want the ISD to join the Arquitens and stormtroopers in inescapable mediocrity. At least the latter really didn't deserve to be brought so low. Don't make the symbol of Imperial fear and domination a running gag.

I honestly have to ask whether Rebels will truly leave a mark on the effectiveness of the Imperial military? Will putting stormtroopers on par with B-1 battledroids become the norm? I realize there were a lot of exceedingly stupid troopers in Legends sources, but at least you had groups like the 501st that had sterling reputations (at least until the were eaten by murderous teddy bears).

On 11/19/2017 at 10:34 AM, Forresto said:

My only problem with star fighters is how crunchy capital ships are to them. Bombers make sense but anti fighters shouldn't be able to do any damage to capital ships short of crashing into an unshielded bridge

I would be completely okay with it if they just made instances like this use missiles or torps instead of the guns. Like, almost every ship in the series has access to one of those. How hard it is to make a ship use it's missiles instead of it's guns when it's strafing a capital ship?

28 minutes ago, flyboymb said:

At any rate, the ISD just simply isn't meant to be a pushover. The very first scene of Star Wars shown on film shoved it right in your face that the Star Destroyer was meant to be an overwhelming force compared to what the Rebellion was equipped with. The introductory scene of the Executor similarly was meant to show the threat of the ISD by having it serve as a point of comparison to the largest ship we've seen on screen. It's not a jack-of-all-trades, it's an ace of all of them. This is why Legends had the production line of the ISD taking up a sizable portion of the Imperial budget. Each one was supposed to cost more than the annual GDP of entire star systems!

Fair point. With just one small issue.
Luxembourg has a bigger annual GDP than most star wars star systems
And the cost for an Imperial Class Star Destroyer are just 150 Million credits. That is more than the GDP of your normal dirt poor 50,000 population colony system and still a little cheaper than a full wing of X-Wing + gear to maintain them. ;-)

31 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Fair point. With just one small issue.
Luxembourg has a bigger annual GDP than most star wars star systems
And the cost for an Imperial Class Star Destroyer are just 150 Million credits. That is more than the GDP of your normal dirt poor 50,000 population colony system and still a little cheaper than a full wing of X-Wing + gear to maintain them. ;-)

Prices in Star Wars lore never made any sense.
An average blaster rifle was worth 1,000 credits in Legends. So I guess a delivery of 150,000 of those was worth the same as an ISD?

A TIE Defender, one of the most advanced fighters in the galaxy, was worth 300,000 credits (new) or 80,000 (used). That is, the same as 300 rifles (80 rifles if used)?
That is totally ridiculous. Who wouldn't want to cut off on buying 80 rifles in exchange of being able to own a second hand TIE Defender?

5 hours ago, Azrapse said:

Prices in Star Wars lore never made any sense.
An average blaster rifle was worth 1,000 credits in Legends. So I guess a delivery of 150,000 of those was worth the same as an ISD?

A TIE Defender, one of the most advanced fighters in the galaxy, was worth 300,000 credits (new) or 80,000 (used). That is, the same as 300 rifles (80 rifles if used)?
That is totally ridiculous. Who wouldn't want to cut off on buying 80 rifles in exchange of being able to own a second hand TIE Defender?

Where would you buy one tho?

1 hour ago, RufusDaMan said:

Where would you buy one tho?

Just give Sabine a little more time.

Have to agree on the pricing system in Star Wars. Either there's a huge amount of graft going on with certain projects (likely) or somebody is twisting the arm of SFS in order to get battleships produced on the cheap (also likely). They're still the main symbol of Imperial power in space. Given how much the Empire relies on the fear of violence as much as violence itself, having a paper tiger for your main capital ship is the last thing you want.

As we've seen in real life, you tend to lose a good chunk of prestige for your military organization if your brand new tank breaks down in the middle of a military parade or a senior naval officer breaks down in tears after merely being detained. You instead shoot for benchmarks such as having a tank or fighter that has never been taken out in combat.

They literally build not one, but two death stars. Considering that there are millions of MAJOR worlds and potentially hundreds of millions, maybe even a whole billion of smaller colonies out there, one death star or even 10 are paper tigers already, because they would need more than a thousand years to effectively destroy uprising planets. The death star itself was about the fear it induces, an expensive paper tiger, even during the battle of endor it was easily avoided.

Considering the resources spend to build it, you could have ordered tens of thousands of capital ships instead.

1 hour ago, SEApocalypse said:

They literally build not one, but two death stars. Considering that there are millions of MAJOR worlds and potentially hundreds of millions, maybe even a whole billion of smaller colonies out there, one death star or even 10 are paper tigers already, because they would need more than a thousand years to effectively destroy uprising planets. The death star itself was about the fear it induces, an expensive paper tiger, even during the battle of endor it was easily avoided.

Considering the resources spend to build it, you could have ordered tens of thousands of capital ships instead.

Old Legends had the scale of the Empire right, but like most sci-fi scale gives no sense of perspective.

Take Coruscant for example. 2 Trillion is tame.

For a franchise never bothered with science Star Wars has a really weird way of low balling numbers.

If you really think about it the Empire could have four times as many ISDs then what they have and nothing would change. Even if the Empire had 500,000 ISD's they would be stretched thin across a galaxy. So why not go for the larger number? Or show us why they don't focus on the production of ISDs other then the Deat Star? Because the Death Star alone doesn't cut it, if the Empire is strip mining the galaxy and not prociding substantial payments for such operations then they're not strapped for rescources.

Still that's why the numbers bother me for the Imperial Fleet at the Battle of Jakku with a single SSD and thirty ISDs. This is meant to be the last ditch effort of the Imperial remnant. At this point you're only trying to hold one planet...so where is the fleet?

If for anything else as a writer why would you ever miss the chance to be like screw it let's throw two hundred ISDs against two hundred-three hundred rebel ships. Honestly Star Wars writers have found really easy ways to undercut the awesomeness of this universe.

I think the number of species and planets is greatly overestimated by you guys. They also count planets like Felucia. I mean, a largely tribal planet doesn't need an ISD to protect it. Heck even the well known planet tatooine is a dirt ball with nothing of interest there. Most worlds in SW aren't like Coruscant. Random backwater jungles with a single city or sth. I believe there is significant fleet presence on every important planet,if not an ISD.

Keyword: important

And the Lothals and Tatooines are the majority of the galaxy. Even Alderaan and Corellia weren't on par with planets like Corscant, Nal Hutta, and Taris. Then you have planets like Ord Mantel that are owned but practically uninhabited. Policing these low density planets wasn't horribly difficult unless you had a major insurrection like Lothal or especially Jedha.

As for the Death Star, hyperspace ensured that it could be at any hotbed of Rebel activity rapidly. When they start off the show by turning a high profile planet like Alderaan into asteroids, the galaxy as a whole didn't really want to get pissed until the threat of it happening again was mitigated. After 2-3 planets, you'd have whole planetary populations scouring their backwoods and cities alike to root out Rebels for the Empire just so they don't get caught up in the destruction the Rebellion would bring to them. The Rebels themselves would be pariahs form any place of civilization as the people wouldn't want them there and honestly the more ethical of the Rebels wouldn't want innocents being killed just for a network or two trying to liberate the planet. In this way, the Empire has reach without really needing reach.

Just what would you do to stay alive if your government started to nuke any town with heavy crime?

This didn't work for Germans in WW2, they were doing something very similar but obviously on smaller scale (partisans killed some soilders in an ambush? Let's raze every village in 30km radius) and the resistance movements only grew as the war progressed.

Allegedly The Empire has ~10,000 worlds to protect and govern. It's kind of no wonder the Senate was a mess but that doesn't mean every world really honestly gets representation.

But after playing a particular game, I can tell you- anything that wasn't at Jakku wasn't really Imperial anymore. Even so, The First Order had to start somewhere, right?

Thrawn Alliances cover

You're a boon to our community, Advisor.

7 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Allegedly The Empire has ~10,000 worlds to protect and govern. It's kind of no wonder the Senate was a mess but that doesn't mean every world really honestly gets representation.

But after playing a particular game, I can tell you- anything that wasn't at Jakku wasn't really Imperial anymore. Even so, The First Order had to start somewhere, right?

Well...

Even if the Imperials at Jakku are just the fanatic supporters, the type that would carry out Operation: Cinder without question, it still begs the question then what about the rest of the Empire? Because that actually makes marking Jakku as the end of the Empire much more problematic.

The vast majority of the Empire probably isn't fanatical to Palpatine so if anything the loss of the fanatical Imperials at Jakku is a boon to the rest of the Empire. It was ultimately Palpatine himself that led to the Empire's demise not the system he created so the loss of those loyal to Palpatine (and not really the Empire) would be a victory for those loyal to the Imperial state. Those would still exist despite everything else.

This is the problem with the Aftermath trilogy. They set Jakku and the demise of the Empire in such a truncated timeline its hard to rectify these small issues. If Jakku had been set five or even just three years out from Endor then sure it would be easier to swallow that the Imperials left are the fanatics.

A single year? That will take explanation on a Timothy Zahn or Karen Traviss level to work.

And its part of the problem of most Star Wars writers low balling numbers. The galaxy is massive, and we're clearly in a fictional universe where coolness is the most important factor. So why is there only 25,000 ISDs? Why is the Imperial fleet only three dozen ISDs and a SSD at Jakku?

We can argue canon statistics and reasons for why things are the way they are. But my question is why are they rushing the story and restraining themselves? I get we're in sequel trilogy waters now but still...

5 minutes ago, Forresto said:

And this is the problem with the Aftermath trilogy. They set Jakku and the demise of the Empire in such a truncated timeline its hard to rectify these small issues. If Jakku had been set five or even just three years out from Endor then sure it would be easier to swallow that the Imperials left are the fanatics. A single year? That will take explanation on a Timothy Zahn or Karen Traviss level to work.

And its part of the problem of most Star Wars writers low balling numbers. The galaxy is massive, and we're clearly in a fictional universe where coolness is the most important factor. So why is there only 25,000 ISDs? Why is the Imperial fleet only three dozen ISDs and a SSD at Jakku?

It's probably easier to explain than you'd think.

You're thinking of the Empire as a 21st-century-Earth sort of government. But nothing in Star Wars (other than the fancy space ships and pewpews) really points to that level of social sophistication. Heck, the old Republic at its HEIGHT was borderline-feudal in most cases. How many books have you even see in the Star Wars setting? There is a good argument to be made that most people in the Star Wars universe are functionally illiterate (aside from the few soldiers/leaders/or 'heroes' we spend most our time with - but go into anyone's house in the universe, and...no books)!

Really, it's more fair to think of this galaxy far, far away like the 14th or 15th century Earth. In such a case, the 'Empire' is Britain - the people you write your tax check to once a year, and who you try to send a request to help for if a neighbor tries to invade your land. (And who will send their own army and kill you and everyone you know...and then leave again...if you decide you don't like this arrangement) The galaxy was 'loyal' to the Empire to the extent that they'd send in their taxes, throw receptions and parties if a visiting Imperial dignitary came through, report on pirate/rebel activity they come across (because you never know if it's a test or not), and otherwise follow whatever 'rules' the Empire decides on for trade and such, but otherwise...if nobody picks up on the other end of the line anymore, are just as happy to go on their own way.

Also, there are moffs such as Adelhard that upon hearing of the Emperor’s death blockaded his sector, using any ships to enforce said blockade.

Mas Amedda I believe had a small fleet above Coruscant that kept fighting. Other Imperials maintained their last post, such as those at Kashyyk - though that may have been a target of Cinder. We do find out that the Emperor was a petulant playground boy, who had the Empire set up in such a way that if/when he dies, will crumbe apart in the ultimate “take my ball and go home” move.

1 hour ago, xanderf said:

It's probably easier to explain than you'd think.

You're thinking of the Empire as a 21st-century-Earth sort of government. But nothing in Star Wars (other than the fancy space ships and pewpews) really points to that level of social sophistication. Heck, the old Republic at its HEIGHT was borderline-feudal in most cases. How many books have you even see in the Star Wars setting? There is a good argument to be made that most people in the Star Wars universe are functionally illiterate (aside from the few soldiers/leaders/or 'heroes' we spend most our time with - but go into anyone's house in the universe, and...no books)!

Really, it's more fair to think of this galaxy far, far away like the 14th or 15th century Earth. In such a case, the 'Empire' is Britain - the people you write your tax check to once a year, and who you try to send a request to help for if a neighbor tries to invade your land. (And who will send their own army and kill you and everyone you know...and then leave again...if you decide you don't like this arrangement) The galaxy was 'loyal' to the Empire to the extent that they'd send in their taxes, throw receptions and parties if a visiting Imperial dignitary came through, report on pirate/rebel activity they come across (because you never know if it's a test or not), and otherwise follow whatever 'rules' the Empire decides on for trade and such, but otherwise...if nobody picks up on the other end of the line anymore, are just as happy to go on their own way.

*Excuse the forthcoming rant *

Despite being a very sound theory, (and probably close to the truth) I feel like that its somewhat counter intuitive of the SW story which is very much a 20th century story both in actual release and sense of reality. Pure feudalism would alter that considerably.

Lets forget trying to explain canon for a moment, which can be obtrusive, and we need to think about the story Star Wars is trying to tell. One of the most important themes has always been about the struggle against Fascism in favor of an equal opportunity, democratic society where people of all types can make what they want of themselves.

The Empire are the nazis and the First Order are a combination of the nostalgic later generations that brought about the Neo Nazis movement throughout the world and the descendants of actual nazis and nazis supporters.

The greatest problem in Germany before and during WWII was not just Hitler (though he was the awful spark) but the tens to hundreds of millions who supported him. Not just the fanatics but the people who may not have loved everything about the Nazis or even privately disliked Hitler but benefitted from their new order and actively supported it. Its the banality of evil and compliance. For instance Thrawn hates much of what the Empire does but he goes along with it despite his reticence because he perceives it to benefit him.

So where are all the people who support the Empire, who are willing to fight and die for this system that has elevated their lives, but still hate big papa Palpatine?

I guess I don't buy the reality in most of the stories of the post Return of the Jedi to Jakku era while at the same time I think the sequel trilogy has been handled brilliantly. For all my qualms with Rebels, I buy the reality they're showing me and I think despite the up and down writing Rebels actually does a brilliant job portraying Lucas's original vision.

I want a writer to give me numbers, statistics, lists of worlds burnt in operation Cinder. With 10,000 worlds under their thrall a few hundred of those will be as loyal as Vardos, where did they go? The galaxy post Jakku doesnt make sense as explained and its frustrating. Where did the 25,000 ISD's go? There would be other people other then Gallius Rax gathering forces in other parts of the galaxy.

Simply put Jakku can't be the only large scale battle post Return of the Jedi.

2 hours ago, Forresto said:

Well...

Even if the Imperials at Jakku are just the fanatic supporters, the type that would carry out Operation: Cinder without question, it still begs the question then what about the rest of the Empire? Because that actually makes marking Jakku as the end of the Empire much more problematic.

The vast majority of the Empire probably isn't fanatical to Palpatine so if anything the loss of the fanatical Imperials at Jakku is a boon to the rest of the Empire. It was ultimately Palpatine himself that led to the Empire's demise not the system he created so the loss of those loyal to Palpatine (and not really the Empire) would be a victory for those loyal to the Imperial state. Those would still exist despite everything else.

This is the problem with the Aftermath trilogy. They set Jakku and the demise of the Empire in such a truncated timeline its hard to rectify these small issues. If Jakku had been set five or even just three years out from Endor then sure it would be easier to swallow that the Imperials left are the fanatics.

A single year? That will take explanation on a Timothy Zahn or Karen Traviss level to work.

And its part of the problem of most Star Wars writers low balling numbers. The galaxy is massive, and we're clearly in a fictional universe where coolness is the most important factor. So why is there only 25,000 ISDs? Why is the Imperial fleet only three dozen ISDs and a SSD at Jakku?

We can argue canon statistics and reasons for why things are the way they are. But my question is why are they rushing the story and restraining themselves? I get we're in sequel trilogy waters now but still...

Operation Cinder targeted Imperial Stronghold Worlds such as Vardos and Fondor.

Cinder targeted the production facilities and most loyal worlds of The Empire. Cinder was never made for any other reason than to destroy The Empire from the inside-out. Supply lines suffered, ships as small as Arquitens Cruisers could not be properly supplied, fanatically loyal or not. The Empire ensured its own death willingly.

10 000 worlds is a ridiculously small number considering the Mandalore-led Concuil of Neutral Systems during the Clone Wars counted 1 500... systems.

Well nobody said it was a ton of worlds.