41 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Why aren't there anti-fighter vessels such as an Imperial Raider

Models. Rebels has a more strict budget than TCW did, because George is no longer pouring his own money into the production. This is why some planets only appear from orbit before showing the ground in later seasons, presumably there are so many gas-giant planets or planets with otherwise limited surfaces, and why we always only see like the same 5 ship classes. Additional models takes time and production funding. Now obviously if the show was actually all fighters all the time, the writing would probably call for more of that sort of thing, and they could squeak the models in, but this may be the only big space battle of this type of the entire season - which already shows improvements on previous seasons with more models in number AND a new model for the X-Wing, with alternate colorations and having a variety of astromechs and other greebles. Introducing an obscure ship like the raider for 5 minutes to take a few potshots at X-Wings would really be little reward for the resources used. Again, obviously they could write the show to require more ships like the Raider, but Rebels was not necessarily ever focused on large-scale dramatic fights. It started much smaller and so the plot-lines are a lot more focused on the characters and this is obviously the direction they want to go in, while still showing how the story of the Rebellion as a whole is getting larger and larger scale to make a dramatic dove-tail into Rogue One.

41 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

I'd ask if these things are just flat out made of paper

It's 22 minutes of TV, everything is paper. Plus, the TIE Defender hit the magazine. That's pretty bad. Probably.

(Also a single A-wing brought down the Executor, we split too many hairs about this and we're gonna start calling out everything)

7 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

Models. Rebels has a more strict budget than TCW did, because George is no longer pouring his own money into the production. This is why some planets only appear from orbit before showing the ground in later seasons, presumably there are so many gas-giant planets or planets with otherwise limited surfaces, and why we always only see like the same 5 ship classes. Additional models takes time and production funding. Now obviously if the show was actually all fighters all the time, the writing would probably call for more of that sort of thing, and they could squeak the models in, but this may be the only big space battle of this type of the entire season - which already shows improvements on previous seasons with more models in number AND a new model for the X-Wing, with alternate colorations and having a variety of astromechs and other greebles. Introducing an obscure ship like the raider for 5 minutes to take a few potshots at X-Wings would really be little reward for the resources used. Again, obviously they could write the show to require more ships like the Raider, but Rebels was not necessarily ever focused on large-scale dramatic fights. It started much smaller and so the plot-lines are a lot more focused on the characters and this is obviously the direction they want to go in, while still showing how the story of the Rebellion as a whole is getting larger and larger scale to make a dramatic dove-tail into Rogue One.

It's 22 minutes of TV, everything is paper. Plus, the TIE Defender hit the magazine. That's pretty bad. Probably.

(Also a single A-wing brought down the Executor, we split too many hairs about this and we're gonna start calling out everything)

Like I said. Altered turret model with blue/purple bolts is way less time consuming than a brand new model- which isn't even necessary. It'd be great but not necessary.

8 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

It wouldn't cost them much. It'd cost them, but it would cost them no more than porting over Rogue One's model for the tank did, especially given that the Raider CGI model exists for Battlefront II 2 (and could pretty easily have simpler textures and some detail removed.)

But you don't even need a raider. You could just throw different guns onto an Arquitens, change the color to blue and say "Yes sir, that is an ion cannon" and it's believable.

That studio has no access to the Raider CGI models from Battlefront at all. I imagine they could buy them, remodel them afterwards into their complete different style and having paid even more that way. ;-)
Furthermore are bigger models "always" more work, at least if you want to have a few close up scenes with them as well and need all the details than too, which you never know 100% for sure when you start working with them, so you need to at least consider upgrades in the budget. Lastly, true that tank was expensive, all the more reason not to build a raider on top. They went with the tank, and considering how filoni has worked in the past, we can assume that we will see those tanks even more often.
Meanwhile that Raider would have been build for that single episode. If Filoni had planned to do even more space battles, he would have gone with even more cool space stuff, but he obvisiously plans to do something big with the whole force wolfs and living lothal story arc that he has been building up since a while now.

Lastly, they did not port over the tank, they build it from scratch with Rogue 1 as reference material. You can not port over this kind of stuff when your animation style is completely different. Its simply more efficient to build from scratch, and relevant as well for the render times as Rebels is using intentional a cartoony look to keep the costs and render times down.

Just now, SEApocalypse said:

That studio has no access to the Raider CGI models from Battlefront at all. I imagine they could buy them, remodel them afterwards into their complete different style and having paid even more that way. ;-)
Furthermore are bigger models "always" more work, at least if you want to have a few close up scenes with them as well and need all the details than too, which you never know 100% for sure when you start working with them, so you need to at least consider upgrades in the budget. Lastly, true that tank was expensive, all the more reason not to build a raider on top. They went with the tank, and considering how filoni has worked in the past, we can assume that we will see those tanks even more often.
Meanwhile that Raider would have been build for that single episode. If Filoni had planned to do even more space battles, he would have gone with even more cool space stuff, but he obvisiously plans to do something big with the whole force wolfs and living lothal story arc that he has been building up since a while now.

Lastly, they did not port over the tank, they build it from scratch with Rogue 1 as reference material. You can not port over this kind of stuff when your animation style is completely different. Its simply more efficient to build from scratch, and relevant as well for the render times as Rebels is using intentional a cartoony look to keep the costs and render times down.

You're really going to tell me that they'd need to buy those models? That nobody up top, who owns all of these things under one umbrella couldn't say, "Hey, maybe let this other section of what we own have a hand with these assets, that we own- need I remind you, we own this stuff."?

7 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

You're really going to tell me that they'd need to buy those models? That nobody up top, who owns all of these things under one umbrella couldn't say, "Hey, maybe let this other section of what we own have a hand with these assets, that we own- need I remind you, we own this stuff."?

LOL.
EA giving something away for free? They literally trying to sell blasters models and ammo to their players already

Now the tanks from R1 they most likely can have indeed for free if they wanted, but as I stated there is the other problem that they would needed to completely scaled down and thus remodelling them from scratch with the originals as reference base is easier, at least when aiming for the special art style of rebels.

(otherwise it can be reasonable to decrease polycount from models for something like games for example, still an non-trivial art to make low quality models look good, but as long as the art style is the same you can actually do it and have a reasonable saving in time, still not free)

1 minute ago, SEApocalypse said:

LOL.
EA giving something away for free? They literally trying to sell blasters models and ammo to their players already

Now the tanks from R1 they most likely can have indeed for free if they wanted, but as I stated there is the other problem that they would needed to completely scaled down and thus remodelling them from scratch with the originals as reference base is easier, at least when aiming for the special art style of rebels.

(otherwise it can be reasonable to decrease polycount from models for something like games for example, it an non-trivial art to make low quality models still look good, but as long as the art style is the same you can actually do it and have a reasonable saving in time, still not free)

Well, we aren't executives that own them, nor are we able to tell them to pork it over. Just saying. I'm also going to say that I have a difficult time believing the Venators from TCW aren't heavily altered RoTS models. Mind you I'm aware nothing is free, but when it comes down to it, it's just bizarre to me that no damned ship in the fleet can track fighters or has ion cannons.

9 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

You're really going to tell me that they'd need to buy those models? That nobody up top, who owns all of these things under one umbrella couldn't say, "Hey, maybe let this other section of what we own have a hand with these assets, that we own- need I remind you, we own this stuff."?

FFG doesn’t get told half of what ships they have to produce for their game do (tie striker bombs and tie silencer missiles). And I’m sure it’s written in EAs contract that while Disney owns the license, EA retain intellectual property rights (meaning they own the models computer files).

So yeah, if they don’t want to steal from EAs artist, they would have to pay for that model. Which is standard practice when you contract something out. (RIP lucasarts)

Just now, Captain Lackwit said:

Well, we aren't executives that own them, nor are we able to tell them to pork it over. Just saying. I'm also going to say that I have a difficult time believing the Venators from TCW aren't heavily altered RoTS models. Mind you I'm aware nothing is free, but when it comes down to it, it's just bizarre to me that no damned ship in the fleet can track fighters or has ion cannons.

Wasn't Thrawn using Ions against Hera and the Defender following her? Against advise of his own officers who rightfully feared hitting Skerries. I might be wrong. maybe it was a regular hit, but it looked like an Ion hit, taking down the shields in one shot and having sparkles running off in both cockpits …

5 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Well, we aren't executives that own them, nor are we able to tell them to pork it over. Just saying. I'm also going to say that I have a difficult time believing the Venators from TCW aren't heavily altered RoTS models. Mind you I'm aware nothing is free, but when it comes down to it, it's just bizarre to me that no damned ship in the fleet can track fighters or has ion cannons.

That’s not how the force works!!!

Also TCW could get away with a lot of stuff because they had to answer to George Lucas and as long as they met his creative vision he was willing to spend money on his show, and since he was exec to all his sub companies, it wasn’t a hassle to grab stuff from other departments because they all answered to the same man. KK doesn’t run EA.

Depending on how the model is made, and what software you're using, cosmetic changes can themselves be a whole new model. So altering what the turrets on the Arquitens could mean they have to make an entirely new render just for that variance. Not that you necessarily need it, you could just use different visuals, but nobody fired because "Capital Ships don't hit fighters" most of the time and once the fighters got into the blockade's formation you'd just be getting a lot of friendly fire. Always know what's behind your target.

34 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Wasn't Thrawn using Ions against Hera and the Defender following her?

No, those are definitely the turbolaser barbettes the show firing, and the appropriate SFX color for them. The gunnery crew on the Chimera(?) just got very lucky to catch two snub fighters with their blanket barrage, taking down the shields. Too bad Hera didn't have any upgrades to discard for Chopper to use.

Note that for dramatic purposes, how powerful lasers are in Rebels is very flexible.

6 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

No, those are definitely the turbolaser barbettes the show firing, and the appropriate SFX color for them. The gunnery crew on the Chimera(?) just got very lucky to catch two snub fighters with their blanket barrage, taking down the shields. Too bad Hera didn't have any upgrades to discard for Chopper to use.

Thanks for clearing this up. And who knows, the elite defender is supposed to have stronger shields, maybe she did drop her proton torpedos or dropped her guidance chips and that was the reason she was still operational and ahead in the game. ˓˓ก₍⸍⸌̣ʷ̣̫⸍̣⸌₎ค˒˒

5 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

Always know what's behind your target.

That works btw both ways, always know whom you can use as cover against the guns from behind is a solid space combat advise. Always fun to kill hostiles with their own allies fire.

nah.. she just didn't assign Chopper an action, instead using hers to do whatever her special maneuver was..

and that wasn't an Elite Defender.. it was one of the regular defenders they'd been fighting, with a special color scheme. the Elite defender has the extended after section between the engines, while the one Skerris was flying didn't.

11 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Always fun to kill hostiles with their own allies fire.

Oh, Hera knew exactly what she was doing. She did a straight line at the enemy flag ship with nothing but clear space behind her, and Skerris fell for it. Thrawn was actually smart to just open up rather than let her get either an unimpeded stab at his command ship or just sail right by him with no resistance.

2 minutes ago, mithril2098 said:

to do whatever her special maneuver was

It looked like what IRL is called a Kulbit (lit "somersault") or "Frolov's Chakra". You basically make the craft do a backflip, ideally over a pursuer.

49 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Wasn't Thrawn using Ions against Hera and the Defender following her? Against advise of his own officers who rightfully feared hitting Skerries. I might be wrong. maybe it was a regular hit, but it looked like an Ion hit, taking down the shields in one shot and having sparkles running off in both cockpits …

Nah. Turbolasers hit Skerris and Hera.

53 minutes ago, FlyingAnchors said:

FFG doesn’t get told half of what ships they have to produce for their game do (tie striker bombs and tie silencer missiles). And I’m sure it’s written in EAs contract that while Disney owns the license, EA retain intellectual property rights (meaning they own the models computer files).

So yeah, if they don’t want to steal from EAs artist, they would have to pay for that model. Which is standard practice when you contract something out. (RIP lucasarts)

So what you're telling me is that they should contact FFG instead, who has a CG/Computer model fine enough for printing for models, and simple enough for it as well? Because EA had to get it from somewhere, and they do not own the Raider.

17 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

Depending on how the model is made, and what software you're using, cosmetic changes can themselves be a whole new model. So altering what the turrets on the Arquitens could mean they have to make an entirely new render just for that variance.

It doesn't mean that, actually. Not in this case. The software they use for TCW and Rebels (and it is at least similar enough to almost DIRECTLY port assets, as shown in LOTS of the art for the show on their site in the renders) is versatile enough that they can extremely easily render changes to existing models without much hassle. I should also point out that they have at least three different Y-Wing models, one of which only made maybe two appearances in Season 3 as a whole, already less than these models for the Y-Wings in Season 4. We should also highlight that They had to get the U-Wing model from somewhere. Sure, they could have made it, but they had at least two different departments at their disposal who'd previously made U-Wing models- DICE and the guys who do Star Wars' CGI these days (Still ILM right?)

Thus, it is 100% feasible that they could have easily altered Battlefront's model, as it already had a decent amount of rigging done- not all the necessary stuff, but a lot of it. It could just as easily be a brand new model- maybe it is.

Which was then altered into an entirely different variant for the Yavin and Lothal scenes/cells. Only Saw has a "Partisan" U-Wing design as of yet.

I'm not trying to be a jerk about this, but I'm saying that these guys do pretty complicated model alterations all the time. Shoot, sometimes episode-to-episode. We could go on about the TIE Defender Elite, too. Which I will point out had Vult Skerris' signature paintjob this episode as well. I should also point out the Mining Guild TIE.

Which has been in ONE episode.

So... Exactly what excuse to they have for no ion turrets on an Arquitens, now?

1 minute ago, UnitOmega said:

Oh, Hera knew exactly what she was doing. She did a straight line at the enemy flag ship with nothing but clear space behind her, and Skerris fell for it. Thrawn was actually smart to just open up rather than let her get either an unimpeded stab at his command ship or just sail right by him with no resistance.

It looked like what IRL is called a Kulbit (lit "somersault") or "Frolov's Chakra". You basically make the craft do a backflip, ideally over a pursuer.

Looked to me like she cut her thrust, narrowed her profile and spun in space ala BSG's 180- something we've seen in Rebels before from Vader. Guess she learned that some types of spinning can indeed be good tricks.

Interesting that X-Wings can fire their guns with their S-Foils closed. I sort of have to wonder why they don't do that all the time. Don't tell me about the purpose of S-Foils and thermal venting- I'm hard pressed to believe that's actually really genuinely the case anymore.

i kno what it is IRL.. but in game terms "who knows" is the accurate term.

12 minutes ago, mithril2098 said:

nah.. she just didn't assign Chopper an action, instead using hers to do whatever her special maneuver was..

and that wasn't an Elite Defender .. it was one of the regular defenders they'd been fighting, with a special color scheme. the Elite defender has the extended after section between the engines, while the one Skerris was flying didn't.

I hate having to do this. I really, really do.

21 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

It looked like what IRL is called a Kulbit (lit "somersault") or "Frolov's Chakra". You basically make the craft do a backflip, ideally over a pursuer.

Not really.
It is something similar, but was using "proper" zero-g physics actually, we could see her "gliding" into her target from her forward momentum, while Frolov's Chakra is an 100% atmospheric maneuver. Which makes it just cooler that Filoni's team actually did pull a cool space maneuver off which still looked very similar to a legit air combat maneuver and thus fits perfect into star wars.
Still a good call with the Frolov's Chakra.

I would describe it best as a fish hook with a barrel roll (real one, not the allerion roll) to lose speed, with sliding out the end of the turn from the left forward momentum. Or maybe even a rolling scissor, now that I think about it: Iiirc Hera did go right past the bridge tower, but went left of it for the shot … would have to rewatch it again to be sure about the details …

I probably could stand to see it again, but to me it looked like she pulled up and closed foils to cut thrust (kind of like a Cobra, but, y'know, "space drag") and then loops up to shoot at the TIE/D from above (as she severs the dorsal and port wings) before coming back around to the same heading and accelerating forward again, but it's possible I missed some angling in there.

Vader actually does a literal Koiogran Turn when he appears in Rebels in the TIE/x1, that's when you throttle up and twist the stick to the side so you loop over facing the other direction and bleed forward momentum, so you basically end up heading in the opposite direction without having to do a big loop or turn. And also was invented by SW, like Tallon Rolls and Segnor's Loops.

46 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

And also was invented by SW, like Tallon Rolls and Segnor's Loops.

Not sure if the turns were really invented by star wars. J-Turns with vector thrust jets are not that new AND Wing Commander manual from 1993 had already something similar.

Taggart's Tactics from Claw Marks (1993 Wing Commander Manual, in In-universe paper of the Tiger's Claw)

etc …

edit:
BTW, the only reason I remember this stuff from Wing Commander that it actually worked even in Wing Commander 1 and is still useful in star citizen

2 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Not sure if the turns were really invented by star wars. J-Turns with vector thrust jets are not that new AND Wing Commander manual from 1993 had already something similar.

Taggart's Tactics from Claw Marks (1993 Wing Commander Manual, in In-universe paper of the Tiger's Claw)

Kickstop : Make a hard 90º turn in any direction and hold your new course for a moment. If your pursuer overshoots and doesn't turn in your wake, do a 180º spin back and open fire.

Turn-'n'-Spin : This is like the Kickstop, except that you also kill engine power.

Sit-'n'-Spin :Kill your engines and perform a 360º spin, firing on any targets that enter your cone of fire. Once you've spun to your original course, re-engage engines and continue.

Sit-'n'-Kick : An evasive maneuver especially useful against large ships. Make a 90º thrn(sic) in any direction. Shut off engines and spin to face your target; open fire. Then, make another random 90º turn and hit your afterburners.

etc …

edit:
BTW, the only reason I remember this stuff from Wing Commander that it actually worked even in Wing Commander 1 and is still useful in star citizen

Elite: Dangerous pilot and Viper jockey, reporting. Can confirm Star Wars definitely didn't invent the 180-and-spray. I first saw it in BSG but know full well it predates that. It is however, an iconic move of that series.

However its usefulness is based entirely on how fast your vessel is allowed to pivot 180 degrees. Elite: Dangerous is kind of limiting in that respect, allegedly, for balance and physically-accurate reasons but I ain't buyin it.

I generally meant more the names.

I've been familiar with the "thrust up and point backwards" since playing Escape Velocity , though it was typically called the "Monty Python maneuver" there.

Just now, Captain Lackwit said:

Elite: Dangerous pilot and Viper jockey, reporting. Can confirm Star Wars definitely didn't invent the 180-and-spray. I first saw it in BSG but know full well it predates that. It is however, an iconic move of that series.

However its usefulness is based entirely on how fast your vessel is allowed to pivot 180 degrees. Elite: Dangerous is kind of limiting in that respect, allegedly, for balance and physically-accurate reasons but I ain't buyin it.

In Elite you actually can still use those above which start with a 90' degree turn, deactivate than pilot assist, start strafing additionally, while starting to turn into the apposite directing, using your drift, strafe, and turn movement to get your guns on target, depending on the exact situation, manage thrust and be ready to burn because you will not keep your turn advantage this way forever ;-)

But yeah, Elite is certainly different, but still the same. The basics are conservation of momentum, the details depend on how strong you navigational thrusters are and if there is a speed limit, etc ^-^

CMDR_ ... SEApocalypse iirc reporting in. Though I have not touch the game anymore since about 8 weeks in, I got my viper, I started farming those 50,000k+ bounties with it, got a little bit borred ... thinking about installing it again soon. My squadron seems to fly again in Elite, while 3.0 is still ... under NDA. °_^

And btw, I find it highly ironic that in Wing Commander the adwise was first to make a sharp turn AND THEN kill your engines to make the starbuck / zero-g turn, meanwhile by all means in BSG Starbuck should have died each time halfway in her turn, because she was always a sitting duck flying just straight for seconds with enemies right behind her … turned me so hard off, that I actually never watched much of the series. My wife always shakes her head when I start ranting about how stupid that move in BSG is (mainly, because she would always drop first a mine and then turn, but BSG Vipers don't have mines)

Just now, SEApocalypse said:

In Elite you actually can still use those above which start with a 90' degree turn, deactivate than pilot assist, start strafing additionally, while starting to turn into the apposite directing, using your drift, strafe, and turn movement to get your guns on target, depending on the exact situation, manage thrust and be ready to burn because you will not keep your turn advantage this way forever ;-)

But yeah, Elite is certainly different, but still the same. The basics are conservation of momentum, the details depend on how strong you navigational thrusters are and if there is a speed limit, etc ^-^

CMDR_ ... SEApocalypse iirc reporting in. Though I have not touch the game anymore since about 8 weeks in, I got my viper, I started farming those 50,000k+ bounties with it, got a little bit borred ... thinking about installing it again soon. My squadron seems to fly again in Elite, while 3.0 is still ... under NDA. °_^

And btw, I find it highly ironic that in Wing Commander the adwise was first to make a sharp turn AND THEN kill your engines to make the starbuck / zero-g turn, meanwhile by all means in BSG Starbuck should have died each time halfway in her turn, because she was always a sitting duck flying just straight for seconds with enemies right behind her … turned me so hard off, that I actually never watched much of the series. My wife always shakes her head when I start ranting about how stupid that move in BSG is (mainly, because she would always drop first a mine and then turn, but BSG Vipers don't have mines)

You know, if I get into Elite again at some point- my stuff's un-engineered and I fly a Python. I could pretty easily afford-and-A-Rate a Viper MK III at some point if you wanted to duel.

4 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

You know, if I get into Elite again at some point- my stuff's un-engineered and I fly a Python. I could pretty easily afford-and-A-Rate a Viper MK III at some point if you wanted to duel.

Dusting off the Sidewinder, and getting out the CHP pedals and throttle sounds like fun. Though I am rusty like **** and I am not sure that I got the time and commitment for playing space sims, when I could use the time to play X-Wing locally
But hey, I give you a call if I really start playing, because duelling is always fun, especially with willing targets.

Just now, SEApocalypse said:

Dusting off the Sidewinder, and getting out the CHP pedals and throttle sounds like fun. Though I am rusty like **** and I am not sure that I got the time and commitment for playing space sims, when I could use the time to play X-Wing locally
But hey, I give you a call if I really start playing, because duelling is always fun, especially with willing targets.

Rad. I envy the pedals, but I've got a HOTAS. Thrustmaster 16000M, solid stick lemme tell ya (though ideally, CH pedals, thrust, and stick, whew.)

Got a goal ship? I tend towards Imperial and I gotta say, if there's any one endgame vessel I'd love to have it's the Cutter. Flew one in a beta, fell madly in love.