and this circles back to the Tantive IV, where they are clearly kicking the everloving **** out of regular mooks.

The big point is that in the movies the Stormtroopers are only ever accidentally comic relief.

Two of them even hit Leia... Who, let's be reasonable while at short range is less than a man sized target...

It all comes back to mook decay.

First time you see them, they are roflstomping rebels, it just goes downhill from there.

Well, it's weird that your idea of what a Stormtrooper "should" be is from the first 5 minutes of the first movie instead of the entire rest of the series.

Since you like tropes so much, I assume you're already familiar with Stormtrooper Marksmanship .

and this circles back to the Tantive IV, where they are clearly kicking the everloving **** out of regular mooks.

The big point is that in the movies the Stormtroopers are only ever accidentally comic relief.

Two of them even hit Leia... Who, let's be reasonable while at short range is less than a man sized target...

It all comes back to mook decay.

First time you see them, they are roflstomping rebels, it just goes downhill from there.

Well, it's weird that your idea of what a Stormtrooper "should" be is from the first 5 minutes of the first movie instead of the entire rest of the series.

Since you like tropes so much, I assume you're already familiar with Stormtrooper Marksmanship .

Really, So you've never heard of the term "first impressions"? K, whatever. Whenever the Stormtroopers are fighting regular mooks they roflstomp, whenever they fight heroes, unless it's Leia they kinda suck, but they are never comic relief. That sums them up in the OT. In the books it depends entirely on the author. In the games, tends to vary but I maintain they can aim pretty well. In Rebels... I like Rebels but ohgod...

Stormtrooper Marksmanship of course is famous, hence my comments about hitting the broad side of a barn earlier. But really it's this:

95% effective vs redshirts. 2% effective vs Heroes.

For the lulz, i'll quote an excerpt from the link you posted.

"Interestingly, the entire notion of the Stormtroopers being poor shots falls apart on close analysis of all three original trilogy films.

• In A New Hope , the Stormtroopers first appearance features them completely demolishing a Rebel group - this is also all we've seen of them at the point Obi-Wan remarks on their accuracy. Subsequently, their failures involve firing at a moving target that is returning fire over a great distance and firing on targets under decent cover from the bad end of a choke point - both things that would wreck the accuracy of even the best marksmen. As outlined above, the rest of the movie would have had the Stormtroopers under orders to let the heroes escape.
• The Empire Strikes Back features no real exchanges of fire between Stormtroopers and the heroes (the Rebel base on Hoth is abandoned before Stormtroopers land and they capture the heroes on Bespin effortlessly) aside from the Stormtroopers deliberately trying to force Luke into Darth Vader's trap.
• Return of the Jedi has the Stormtroopers being taken down by a numerically superior force that has the element of surprise and the advantage of effective camoflauge (all things that repeatedly have allowed groups with inferior equipment to decimate better-equipped foes throughout military history), and there are still many scenes of Stormtroopers being ruthlessly efficient during the Battle of Endor despite this.
• Even in the prequels, the Battle Droids' lack of effectiveness in combat is understandable- most of the times they're seen in combat, they're fighting against Jedi. Any shooter would have difficulty landing a shot against their target if said target could deflect all of their shots without breaking a sweat. They're actually reaonably effective when they fire upon targets that don't have lightsabers, and given a sufficiently large numbers advantage in the arena on Geonosis in Attack of the Clones , they even do pretty well against Jedi."

I think it helps to think of Jedi as requiring a specialist's help, aka the Inquisitors.

Sure, and maybe this is just my own take on things... But it seemed like Vader made it a special mission to rid the galaxy of Jedi. Like that was his first priority over all else.

Yet in Siege of Lothal it's quite clear he has no problem letting a "jedi and his padawan" escape in the name of finding the Rebel Fleet. I had the impression that Vader would of rather seen the fleet get away and deal with them latter, if that was the cost of killing a Jedi.

But again maybe that's just my take on things, but it doesn't seem like the Empire/Emperor/Vader are quite as single minded in their hunt for Jedi as I thought they would be. No 'Kill the Jedi at all costs'. But then again, it seems that between Rebels and the Star Wars comics, Jedi aren't quite the symbol of hope I thought they would be in this era.

If the stormtroopers were all crack shots and great at their jobs, Star Wars would consist of on 20-minute show whereby the Empire plans a SWAT-style raid, the ST's breach the Rebel hideout and blow away all the heroes.

Times 1000.

Until Palpatine has a victory parade for himself on Naboo.

You just can't have that for narrative reasons.

It's understood that the Empire is pretty darn powerful, great at its job, and that the rebel forces are on the run for a very good reason. Do the ST's miss the heroes all the time? Nope, only when the plot calls for it.

If the stormtroopers were all crack shots and great at their jobs, Star Wars would consist of on 20-minute show whereby the Empire plans a SWAT-style raid, the ST's breach the Rebel hideout and blow away all the heroes.

Times 1000.

Until Palpatine has a victory parade for himself on Naboo.

You just can't have that for narrative reasons.

It's understood that the Empire is pretty darn powerful, great at its job, and that the rebel forces are on the run for a very good reason. Do the ST's miss the heroes all the time? Nope, only when the plot calls for it.

Exactly! Elite Mooks, but still mooks.

And still not comic relief.

- Even in the prequels, the Battle Droids' lack of effectiveness in combat is understandable- most of the times they're seen in combat, they're fighting against Jedi. Any shooter would have difficulty landing a shot against their target if said target could deflect all of their shots without breaking a sweat. They're actually reaonably effective when they fire upon targets that don't have lightsabers, and given a sufficiently large numbers advantage in the arena on Geonosis in Attack of the Clones , they even do pretty well against Jedi."

Exactly; I remember playing Republic Commando a while back. From the perspective of a clone, even an "elite mook" commando clone, the droids were terrifying.

They screeched, could see in the dark, and were generally soulless killing machines The supers were even worse as it took forever to drill through their armor, and they would beat you to death with servo-powered fists if you got close.

I would be very interested in seeing a movie from a rebel trooper's perspective, some guy we don't know, someone who could possibly die at the movie's climax. He don't have to die, but the action is so much more intense when we know that the hero has no plot armor. CQC with a stormtrooper squad could be brutal if your protagonist isn't a Jedi or a Wookiee.

I really miss 1313....

I'd have loved 1313... Or Imperial Commando.

Alas.

Republic commando was brilliant, loved how it portrayed the battledroids.

Also: rogue one maybe? Guys taking plans, precisely 0% need to live to the OT....

Really, So you've never heard of the term "first impressions"? K, whatever.

I think that, when faced with overwhelming subsequent evidence to the contrary, most reasonable people are willing to set aside an erroneous first impression.

Besides, given Vader's presence in that first scene, it's entirely likely that the Stormtroopers with him were the ACTUALLY elite 501st. And that the vast majority of Stormtroopers simply aren't on that same level.

Alan Tudyk needs to be careful he doesn't become the next Sean Bean.

Given Lucasart's output at the time, I think you are unreasonabely optimistic that 1313 would've turned out good.

Careful, it's like you are pick and choosing canon. You mention the 501st, which were not apart of the OT, and yes were stationed with Vader / on the DS. But most canon sources dictate that Stormtroopers are the elite Imperial infantry, and the Imperial army are everyone else.

That and ultimately this sub-debate is moot. The point is yes, a Stormtrooper is a mook. No, they are not a tier1(comic relief) or 2 (incompetent villain) . But at the very least, based on both Obi-Wans comment & the intro to Star Wars(Tantive IV) a tier 3 (competent) mook. I maintain that they are either way above average or elite level.

Random interesting point: At no point in any of the 6 original films is a Stormtrooper killed with a Lightsabre. (Though This is tenuous, if you count clone troopers about half a dozen do).

Regarding 1313. It's a star wars game where you don't get a lightsabre, and it was going to be adult themed. That alone gives it a way above average chance of being good.

Speaking of Sean Bean though... He should totally cameo in Rebels for like 6 episodes........

Actually, I dont recall any current canon source as saying stormtroopers are the elite and there is another army infantry. In the first season of Rebels, which is canon, they were training teenagers to be stormtroopers.

Honestly, I believe that there are elite stormtroopers as well as less skilled stormtroopers. However, you can't tell which is which just looking at them. To me, that makes them scarier.

Now, as to Alan Tudyk being careful not becoming the next Sean Bean... Are you wishing that he not have success, star in movies, and have a fan following humerous meme associated with him?

You raise a good point, indeed this link here hints that Stormtroopers are imperial army. http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/e/ea/Imperial_Army_poster.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150707124054 (didn't let me post).

So then, you have to look at Army V Navy Stormtroopers - are they different. Hope disney untangle this. Hate to be stuck with comictroopers.

- Even in the prequels, the Battle Droids' lack of effectiveness in combat is understandable- most of the times they're seen in combat, they're fighting against Jedi. Any shooter would have difficulty landing a shot against their target if said target could deflect all of their shots without breaking a sweat. They're actually reaonably effective when they fire upon targets that don't have lightsabers, and given a sufficiently large numbers advantage in the arena on Geonosis in Attack of the Clones , they even do pretty well against Jedi."

Exactly; I remember playing Republic Commando a while back. From the perspective of a clone, even an "elite mook" commando clone, the droids were terrifying.

They screeched, could see in the dark, and were generally soulless killing machines The supers were even worse as it took forever to drill through their armor, and they would beat you to death with servo-powered fists if you got close.

I would be very interested in seeing a movie from a rebel trooper's perspective, some guy we don't know, someone who could possibly die at the movie's climax. He don't have to die, but the action is so much more intense when we know that the hero has no plot armor. CQC with a stormtrooper squad could be brutal if your protagonist isn't a Jedi or a Wookiee.

I really miss 1313....

I remember one of the early Clone Wars episodes, where Grievous was flying about with the galaxy's first Ion Cannon destroying Republic cruisers left and right... they sent out a little ship with battle droids on it to "clean up" the various escape pods with clones still in them. The B-1's were sitting on the outside of the ship wearing little hard hats, making with the goofy battle-droid chatter with each other...

And then they found an escape pod, and blowtorched it open so the clones inside were sucked, screaming, out into the vacuum of space. The comical banter between them before, during, and after that little bit of horror made it even more horrifying.

Technically, the clones were blown put into space, not sucked.

They should totally do a grimdark series of star wars live action for us cynical old jerks...

Tales of morally questionable smugglers, actually competent Imperials, GoTesque politics, the extermination of the jedi, and assassin/battledroids that are well.. basically the terminator.

Honestly, i hope they never do a grimdark version of star wars. But, the anthology films may be close.

Let's just wait for Rogue One or Boba Fett, guys...!

This is a galaxy with slavery, sentient robots, hard drugs, criminal empires that own cities and planets, and bowling scores low enough to dredge rivers. There's no shortage of grim material, but the hope part of Star Wars is what is critical here.

Hope is like watermelon, grim is like salt. You get too much grim, you'll want some hope. Get too much hope, you'll be full after a bit. Not thirsty par say, but just hoped-out from lack of real drama/conflict.

But grim hope, that you can eat all day.

This is a galaxy with slavery, sentient robots, hard drugs, criminal empires that own cities and planets, and bowling scores low enough to dredge rivers. There's no shortage of grim material, but the hope part of Star Wars is what is critical here.

Hope is like watermelon, grim is like salt. You get too much grim, you'll want some hope. Get too much hope, you'll be full after a bit. Not thirsty par say, but just hoped-out from lack of real drama/conflict.

But grim hope, that you can eat all day.

God, that's what every Star Wars fan needs to hear.

They should totally do a grimdark series of star wars live action for us cynical old jerks...

Tales of morally questionable smugglers, actually competent Imperials, GoTesque politics, the extermination of the jedi, and assassin/battledroids that are well.. basically the terminator.

Would be nice... or animated space opera/military sci-fi featuring the Imps. This whole Star Wars is light and fluffy/for children is garbage; the setting offers ample opportunities to cater to most demographics.

Would be nice... or animated space opera/military sci-fi featuring the Imps.

I think we all know that TIE Fighter: The Animated Series would be the greatest thing ever.

It's like Batman: The Animated Series, only a rebel gunned down Maarek Stele's parents in an alley.

Because they are all completely faceless in the same uniforms. Is it that different from real life military, if you don't know the insignia?

But there's not even insignia on Stormtroopers. There is nothing that really sets apart the ones on Lothal from the ones that stormed the Tantive IV.

Yes the Ewoks captured the heroes, but it was pretty clear that they went along with them mostly because they wanted to see what would happen next. Luke was never in any real danger. Plus there was four people and two droids vs a company or more of troopers.

I'm ok with Stormtroopers being mooks, I'm a lot less ok with Stormtroopers being comic relief.

I get that and the ones in Rebels tend to be just that. I expect the ones in TFA will be less so, but in Rebels you'll seldom see them being much more because it is marketed more towards kids. But I'd bet even in Rebels if there's ever a large group of rebel troopers you'll see some of them taken out by stormtroopers.

Also while you may be ok with it, I know a number of people who aren't, they don't quite seem to get what the whole point of a mook is.

Given that the armor is supposed to include communications equipment and vision enhancement, it is probable that the Stormtroopers don't wear insignia because the Stormtroopers do not need any external method of telling one from another: Their armor transmits all the relevant data and their fellow Stormtroopers get that relevant data presented in a HUD via their helmet.

It might also be a (not intentional) nod to the USMC, who do not wear any insignia beyond their Eagle Globe & Anchor during combat operations (at least of the amphibious variety), as they don't want an initiative-taking LCpl or LT to ask permission from a paralyzed Sgt or Capt before issuing orders in the chaos of such operations.

I think it helps to think of Jedi as requiring a specialist's help, aka the Inquisitors.

Sure, and maybe this is just my own take on things... But it seemed like Vader made it a special mission to rid the galaxy of Jedi. Like that was his first priority over all else.

Yet in Siege of Lothal it's quite clear he has no problem letting a "jedi and his padawan" escape in the name of finding the Rebel Fleet. I had the impression that Vader would of rather seen the fleet get away and deal with them latter, if that was the cost of killing a Jedi.

But again maybe that's just my take on things, but it doesn't seem like the Empire/Emperor/Vader are quite as single minded in their hunt for Jedi as I thought they would be. No 'Kill the Jedi at all costs'. But then again, it seems that between Rebels and the Star Wars comics, Jedi aren't quite the symbol of hope I thought they would be in this era.

Well, the Empire has convinced much of the galaxy that the Jedi were charlatans who led the galaxy into the most destructive conflict in a thousand years, whose faith led them to destroy the Republic, and whose miracles were nothing more than slights of hand.

They should totally do a grimdark series of star wars live action for us cynical old jerks...

Tales of morally questionable smugglers, actually competent Imperials, GoTesque politics, the extermination of the jedi, and assassin/battledroids that are well.. basically the terminator.

Would be nice... or animated space opera/military sci-fi featuring the Imps. This whole Star Wars is light and fluffy/for children is garbage; the setting offers ample opportunities to cater to most demographics.

See also: The Marvel cinematic universe. Which is shared by the kid-friendly Avengers, Asgardians, and Guardians of the Galaxy, the less kid-friendly Captain America (The Winter Soldier is pretty dark and Civil War should be very dark) and SHIELD/Hydra, and the mature/not at all kid-friendly Netflix series like Daredevil and the forthcoming Jessica Jones.

Please. Winter Soldier is no more dark than any of the other MCU movies.

Which to be fair, if you look a little further than surface deep, are pretty dark.

Seems like most people need their darkness to be so obvious that they can't see anything.

They can go DC and start cutting themselves, if they need to...! :/