Wasn't around for the OT. Sat through and facepalmed the sequel trillogy. Much happier with the saga overall with Disney's reworking of the canon... even if what I hear about some of the novels are kind of iffy.

That said, I do think it was odd to turn fighter progression on it's head with RoTJ fighters showing up pre-Yavin. The A-Wing was (mostly) supposed to be the latest/greatest experimental fighter, and the B-Wing the Rebels' attempt at actively replacing the Y-Wing. With the A-Wings essentially replacing R-22s and the B-Wing an experimetnal pre-yavin fluke it feels... weird. It's also weird seeing TIE/Ds before Yavin because, even though we know Thrawn's budget gets slashed for Stardust, everyone has to recognize how superior the TIE/D is in performance. Why aren't the best of the best fighters at the most important Imperial Installation in the galaxy? And why weren't they called up to shred up Rebel fighters?

And I miss the R-41s

Still as a whole I'd take all of this over what we had in the years after Endor in Legends.

Remember. Every last bit of that was external, EU based canon, and never part of any official story. For all intents and purposes, A-Wings and B-Wings just kind of showed up.

1 hour ago, Norsehound said:

It's also weird seeing TIE/Ds before Yavin because, even though we know Thrawn's budget gets slashed for Stardust, everyone has to recognize how superior the TIE/D is in performance. Why aren't the best of the best fighters at the most important Imperial Installation in the galaxy?

Because the Empire is that racist . There's a good thing right in front of them, but because an Alien has discovered and used it, people - from High Command to the Admiralty to the Politicians, hate, ignore and repudiate it... because basically, Thrawn might have a reputation for getting the job done... But he's not liked or trusted.

Adopting the Defender anywhere else would be a political death-sentence for any admiral... Because it would show that they are a dirty Alien sympathizer .

By the time it actually becomes adopted somewhat, I expect Thrawn to basically be gone and there to be no direct attachments to him. While he's on the scene, it will not be adopted... Which could define its prototype stage onle now.

38 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Because the Empire is that racist . There's a good thing right in front of them, but because an Alien has discovered and used it, people - from High Command to the Admiralty to the Politicians, hate, ignore and repudiate it... because basically, Thrawn might have a reputation for getting the job done... But he's not liked or trusted.

Adopting the Defender anywhere else would be a political death-sentence for any admiral... Because it would show that they are a dirty Alien sympathizer .

By the time it actually becomes adopted somewhat, I expect Thrawn to basically be gone and there to be no direct attachments to him. While he's on the scene, it will not be adopted... Which could define its prototype stage onle now.

No, no I don't think so.

Raid might be the best brand of ant-killer, but you just don't need to protect a tank from ants. The TIE-D might be the best star-fighter out there, but you just don't need starfighters to defend the Death Star. (In theory.) A 5-squadron wing could strafe it for weeks and have little impact.

Also specist is the term you're looking for. Race implies different offshoots of the same species.

A Human might be racist toward Vulcans since they can interbreed with no problems, but a Wookiee would be specist towards humans since they're not both races of the same species.

Things you can be racist towards: Elves, Orks, Dwarves, Caucasians, Drow, Negroes, Klingons, Neanderthals, Aborigines, Lovecraftian Fishmen, Smurfs, Vulcans, and Anime Girls.
All of the aforementioned are races of humanity and they can all interbreed.

Things you cannot be racist towards, but can dislike heuristically using a different term: Wookiees, lemons, Democrats, jellyfish, dogs, cats, Nazis, Darloks, Daleks, whales, space whales, The Mafia, pie, babies, hula hoops.
The aforementioned things cannot interbreed, and/or are a socio-political classification rather than a race.

Things in the grey area: Humanoid Dragons, The Borg/Cyborgs/Replicants, your little sister, Zombies, Muggles.
The aforementioned things are close to human/once human and reproduce in some way, but it's unclear whether or not they count as the same species since they are altered/parasitic.

I feel like the general specism of the Empire has been toned down a lot in the new canon. There's a lot more aliens in the Empire now. The Inquisition has been all aliens so far for example.

1 hour ago, OneKelvin said:

No, no I don't think so.

Raid might be the best brand of ant-killer, but you just don't need to protect a tank from ants. The TIE-D might be the best star-fighter out there, but you just don't need starfighters to defend the Death Star. (In theory.) A 5-squadron wing could strafe it for weeks and have little impact.

Also specist is the term you're looking for. Race implies different offshoots of the same species.

A Human might be racist toward Vulcans since they can interbreed with no problems, but a Wookiee would be specist towards humans since they're not both races of the same species.

Things you can be racist towards: Elves, Orks, Dwarves, Caucasians, Drow, Negroes, Klingons, Neanderthals, Aborigines, Lovecraftian Fishmen, Smurfs, Vulcans, and Anime Girls.
All of the aforementioned are races of humanity and they can all interbreed.

Things you cannot be racist towards, but can dislike heuristically using a different term: Wookiees, lemons, Democrats, jellyfish, dogs, cats, Nazis, Darloks, Daleks, whales, space whales, The Mafia, pie, babies, hula hoops.
The aforementioned things cannot interbreed, and/or are a socio-political classification rather than a race.

Things in the grey area: Humanoid Dragons, The Borg/Cyborgs/Replicants, your little sister, Zombies, Muggles.
The aforementioned things are close to human/once human and reproduce in some way, but it's unclear whether or not they count as the same species since they are altered/parasitic.

Amend wording and the point stands.

Filthy Alien is a quote from Thrawn, however

39 minutes ago, DarthEnderX said:

I feel like the general specism of the Empire has been toned down a lot in the new canon. There's a lot more aliens in the Empire now. The Inquisition has been all aliens so far for example.

The racism/speciesism/anti-nonhuman sentiments of the Empire was a purely EU concoction. The only times in the OT where the Empire seems anti-anything is when Chewie was pretending to be a prisoner in ANG (where are you taking that..,thing) and when Chewie is complaining of the uncomfortable seats in the Tyderium (I dont think the Empire has wookiees in mind when they designed her)

If anything it seems that non-human species don’t venture off of their homeworlds unless they are less than honest people or are involved in the transport business: see Mos Eisley and Jabbas palace. If non-humans are not part of the power structure of the Empire it would Be because they have no interest in bureaucracy or military conquest. Military service seems to mainly be part of the human culture with aliens just not being agreesive enough to expand to thousands of colonies.

anyway, that’s how I see it.

55 minutes ago, DarthEnderX said:

I feel like the general specism of the Empire has been toned down a lot in the new canon. There's a lot more aliens in the Empire now. The Inquisition has been all aliens so far for example.

It does seem toned down, but it is still there. The book Thrawn has him dealing with that kind of prejudice while also meeting Imperials who don't care about his race and see his potential.

Now, I definitely feel that the decline of the Defender project to the Death Star is more based on the promised end results of the projects. Defenders are a more efficient way to fight the war as it has always been fought while the Death Star promises an invincible force to utterly destroy or strike fear in the hearts of all who oppose the Empire.

They're still the best fighters the Empire has on-deck that we've seen. I doubt even Rebels will wound the reputation of the Defender, even if it's likely Sabine will steal one (I hope to God we never see a hacked-up repaint of a TIE/D though).

I can see some high and mighty Imperial commander delivering a speciest-fueled rant to cap Thrawn's failure (for now) however. The delicious irony of it would be if that bit-admiral delivering the Tirade would be Admiral Zaarin.

Though in this time and place, the Zaarin-stand in would be unquestionably Krennic. If Krennic existed in Legends and lived beyond Hoth, he'd most definitely have done what Zaarin ended up doing.

3 hours ago, DarthEnderX said:

I feel like the general specism of the Empire has been toned down a lot in the new canon. There's a lot more aliens in the Empire now. The Inquisition has been all aliens so far for example.

Well it's not like the inquisition is an official part of the empire, right? They obey the emperor directly and Palpatine certainly does not care what species an individual is, only what power it has and wether they threaten him or can be used.

9 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Well it's not like the inquisition is an official part of the empire, right?

I mean, I THOUGHT they were an official organization. It's not like Palpatine has to hide the fact that he's hunting down Jedi at this point, so I don't know why they'd bother to keep it off the books.

16 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

My father saw every star wars movie opening day, except for revenge of the sith. Yes, that includes the original Star Wars on opening day.

Me too. Everyone opening night! Yes I even saw Star Wars on it's original opening nigh; that's the one you now call ' A New Hope '.

5 hours ago, DarthEnderX said:

I mean, I THOUGHT they were an official organization. It's not like Palpatine has to hide the fact that he's hunting down Jedi at this point, so I don't know why they'd bother to keep it off the books.

Why risk your inquisitors being mistaken for Jedi?

That'd be bad PR on top of bad PR.

The reason why Defenders aren't invested in is because the emperor loves super weapons and none of the empire cares about their faceless grunts enough to invest money into something for them.
All the empire is is bureaucracy and cutting corners, Thrawn represents an empire that at the very least cares about its cannon fodder, none of the other admirals do

In the Ahsoka novel and in Rebels, the Inquisitors enjoy the same kind of authority as Vader, though not to the same degree. The people in the standard chain of command recognize the Inquisitors’ official capacity as an extension of the Emperor’s will. Their orders are followed - officially. Seems like an official Imperial thing to me.

As for the TIE Defender, everything they’ve done with it in the show so far makes sense, even moreso than the way the EU wedged it into the tail end of the GCW. I think its role in Rebels will continue to make sense, up to and including the project eventually failing. That failure is a perfect explanation for the Defender’s absence from the original films. Sabine stealing/detonating the prototype would ruffle feathers. I get it, but if the tradeoff for the Defender fitting in with the films is a few disgruntled fans, then so be it.

Speaking of the Inquisition, this month's issue of the Darth Vader comic basically covers the creation of the Inquisition, and it has a shot of all the Inquisitors.

Given that Tarkin allowed (and likely ordered) the Grand Inquisitor to just up and murder two Imperial officers, I'd have to say that they have some official sway in the Empire.

As for the placement of the Defender, I really can't get on board with it. There was at least a bit of rhyme and reason to it going towards the end of the GCW. The opening crawl of ANH talks about how Rebel spaceships had scored their first victory against the Empire with the theft of the Death Star plans. This implies that, prior to said theft, the Rebels had never been much of a threat to the Empire in the realm of space combat (X-Wing game aside).

With that in mind, the Imperials really had no reason to up their fighter game as they had no reason to believe that cheap TIEs weren't the end all be all support for a supposedly invincible fleet of Star Destroyers.

All of the sudden, here comes the Death Star, plans are stolen, Imperials don't think this matters because the Rebels can't field a force large enough to threaten it, promptly gets blown up by Rebel fighters. Here comes ol' Vader talking about how he blew up like a bajillion Rebels but those TIE Fighters were just too garbage to help out.

'Hmm, maybe we need better fighters' said the Empire.

As things stand, they develop the Defender, scrap it, lose the first Death Star, learn NOTHING from that massive loss to a small number of Rebel fighters, then promptly try the same plan again then are left scratching their heads as to why the Rebels use pretty much the same strategy to win again.

That pretty much make the OT Empire just as bumbling as the Empire in Rebels. And I don't like my Empire bumbling.

1 hour ago, flyboymb said:

Given that Tarkin allowed (and likely ordered) the Grand Inquisitor to just up and murder two Imperial officers, I'd have to say that they have some official sway in the Empire.

As for the placement of the Defender, I really can't get on board with it. There was at least a bit of rhyme and reason to it going towards the end of the GCW. The opening crawl of ANH talks about how Rebel spaceships had scored their first victory against the Empire with the theft of the Death Star plans. This implies that, prior to said theft, the Rebels had never been much of a threat to the Empire in the realm of space combat (X-Wing game aside).

With that in mind, the Imperials really had no reason to up their fighter game as they had no reason to believe that cheap TIEs weren't the end all be all support for a supposedly invincible fleet of Star Destroyers.

All of the sudden, here comes the Death Star, plans are stolen, Imperials don't think this matters because the Rebels can't field a force large enough to threaten it, promptly gets blown up by Rebel fighters. Here comes ol' Vader talking about how he blew up like a bajillion Rebels but those TIE Fighters were just too garbage to help out.

'Hmm, maybe we need better fighters' said the Empire.

As things stand, they develop the Defender, scrap it, lose the first Death Star, learn NOTHING from that massive loss to a small number of Rebel fighters, then promptly try the same plan again then are left scratching their heads as to why the Rebels use pretty much the same strategy to win again.

That pretty much make the OT Empire just as bumbling as the Empire in Rebels. And I don't like my Empire bumbling.

In Legends Defenders were ready before Endor, yet aren't present in RotJ.

After the Death Star the Empire didn't have any reason to believe they need better fighters, as Vader's TIEs in the Battle of Yavin scored impressivle K:D ratios, and wouldn't have failed if Tarkin wasn't incompetent, and the Defender had to compete with the Interceptor, which was cheaper and much more reasonable.

Seriously, I know it's nice to fly in videogames, but look at it from Imperial command's perspective, TIE Defender sounds like a German wunderwaffel, why would you waste space, mass, and money on a hyperdrive when you have an unlimited supply of carriers? Why would you need a fucktillion of cannons when a TIE/ln rips X-wings apart with a direct hit of its rapid firing guns, and anything bigger would be decimated by your big ships?

Would the Battle of Endor go any different with the Defenders? Would larger and less agile fighter fare better in the corridors of DSII than TIE Interceptors?

What if Thrawn was... wrong?

On 10/10/2017 at 0:59 AM, DarthEnderX said:

I feel like the general specism of the Empire has been toned down a lot in the new canon. There's a lot more aliens in the Empire now. The Inquisition has been all aliens so far for example.

Because aliens are more menacing and do better villains (for a kid's show).

36 minutes ago, eMeM said:

In Legends Defenders were ready before Endor, yet aren't present in RotJ.

After the Death Star the Empire didn't have any reason to believe they need better fighters, as Vader's TIEs in the Battle of Yavin scored impressivle K:D ratios, and wouldn't have failed if Tarkin wasn't incompetent, and the Defender had to compete with the Interceptor, which was cheaper and much more reasonable.

Seriously, I know it's nice to fly in videogames, but look at it from Imperial command's perspective, TIE Defender sounds like a German wunderwaffel, why would you waste space, mass, and money on a hyperdrive when you have an unlimited supply of carriers? Why would you need a fucktillion of cannons when a TIE/ln rips X-wings apart with a direct hit of its rapid firing guns, and anything bigger would be decimated by your big ships?

Would the Battle of Endor go any different with the Defenders? Would larger and less agile fighter fare better in the corridors of DSII than TIE Interceptors?

What if Thrawn was... wrong?

No, Thrawn knows the fate of the galaxy is being decided in 100/6 games on 90cm mats.

16 hours ago, eMeM said:

In Legends Defenders were ready before Endor, yet aren't present in RotJ.

After the Death Star the Empire didn't have any reason to believe they need better fighters, as Vader's TIEs in the Battle of Yavin scored impressivle K:D ratios, and wouldn't have failed if Tarkin wasn't incompetent, and the Defender had to compete with the Interceptor, which was cheaper and much more reasonable.

Seriously, I know it's nice to fly in videogames, but look at it from Imperial command's perspective, TIE Defender sounds like a German wunderwaffel, why would you waste space, mass, and money on a hyperdrive when you have an unlimited supply of carriers? Why would you need a fucktillion of cannons when a TIE/ln rips X-wings apart with a direct hit of its rapid firing guns, and anything bigger would be decimated by your big ships?

Would the Battle of Endor go any different with the Defenders? Would larger and less agile fighter fare better in the corridors of DSII than TIE Interceptors?

What if Thrawn was... wrong?

The Defenders were ready before Endor, but due to a rather huge insurrection by a Grand Admiral couldn't be involved in the fight. If Zaarin hadn't made his attempt on the Emperor, how many factories for the Defender and Advanced would still be operational? How many squadrons would be available for the Imperial fleet? How many could have been diverted to Endor?

Would they have made a difference? Heck yeah! The Interceptor may have been more nimble, but could it carry warheads? bombs? ion cannons? Admiral Akbar was ready to throw in the towel from just a couple of ships being vaporized by the Death Star laser, would Lando have changed his mind if Rebel fighters were getting decimated by Defenders or if the Falcon was a hulk drifting through the battlefield because it caught one too many Advanced Concussion Missiles?

As for Yavin, the TIEs only racked up a great kill count because (A) Vader was there and (B) most of their kills were confined to a narrow trench, with wingmen only able to act as sacrificial barricades instead of providing actual cover, and nobody able to engage the TIEs.

Watching the scene, I count a total of 2 kills by the TIEs themselves, 2 glancing blows against X-Wings that survived the battle, and 1 Porkins getting hit by turrets. In the meantime, while you couldn't tally up the total number of TIE kills that the Rebels got, you do see the X-Wings flying straight in formation as Gold Squadron made their attack run with no shots being fired at them. This could only be possible if all of the TIE Fighters besides Vader's wingmen were destroyed. As things stand, the only reason why the Rebels had any fighter issues at all was the presence of one of the most skilled pilots in the galaxy.

So one could certainly take away the message that a better fighter was necessary to counter the Rebels. And this doesn't even necessarily contradict Imperial doctrine? Why build something as big as the ISD when your adversaries could barely muster anything larger than a frigate? Why build a huge battlestation when something like the Eclipse would be just as effective? The Empire like to go overboard with all their projects because they have the resources to fund them and the desire to have as much of a military edge as possible. Yes, the TIE Interceptor was an advancement over the Fighter, but in both Legends and Canon we have significant resources being spent on going further down that rabbit hole. In both cases, it took a significant event to halt that research.

It's going to take a major event in Rebels to equal the defection of a Grand Admiral in charge of R&D.

Bombs, ion cannons, what for? They already had thousands of heavy turbolasers and ion cannons in that battle, and possibly hundreds of fighters, but the Emperor wanted to make a point.

How many smaller TIEs is one Defender worth? Would 100 Defenders be better than 500 TIE/ln?

Or even further, would 12 extra TIEs make a difference? 30? Two more ISDs? I don't think so, I don't think this battle was won because of some technical details, or idividual ship statistics. The same goes for Yavin, where Tarkin could have sent everything he got and the Rebels would be massacred in seconds.

Why is the Empire build big ships and scary stations? Because the only thing stopping it from collapsing was fear, and those were terror weapons, and a squadron of TIEs does an impression just as strong as a Defender or two. And features such as hyperdrive, ion cannons, and missiles are rendered redundant by the carrier which should be always working together with the TIEs. Defender could work as a special forces craft, but all this extra stuff is not needed for a mass-produced frontline fighter.

34 minutes ago, eMeM said:

Bombs, ion cannons, what for? They already had thousands of heavy turbolasers and ion cannons in that battle, and possibly hundreds of fighters, but the Emperor wanted to make a point.

How many smaller TIEs is one Defender worth? Would 100 Defenders be better than 500 TIE/ln?

Or even further, would 12 extra TIEs make a difference? 30? Two more ISDs? I don't think so, I don't think this battle was won because of some technical details, or idividual ship statistics. The same goes for Yavin, where Tarkin could have sent everything he got and the Rebels would be massacred in seconds.

Why is the Empire build big ships and scary stations? Because the only thing stopping it from collapsing was fear, and those were terror weapons, and a squadron of TIEs does an impression just as strong as a Defender or two. And features such as hyperdrive, ion cannons, and missiles are rendered redundant by the carrier which should be always working together with the TIEs. Defender could work as a special forces craft, but all this extra stuff is not needed for a mass-produced frontline fighter.

I'll say it again, the Rebels were on the verge of retreating during Endor. A few more losses likely would have seen Akbar ignore Lando's pleas to continue the fight. Yes the battle initially was supposed to be a Death Star turkey shoot, but that was thrown away once the Rebels flew into the Imperial fleet.

What if enough corvettes and fighters were destroyed that the Executor's shields couldn't have been brought down? What if Arvel Crynyd had been shot down or been occupied by TIE Defenders instead of making an attack run towards the Executor's bridge? How many ISDs would be able to focus on the fight if the Rebel B-Wings and Y-Wings were wiped out thanks to high speed Imperial fighters with warheads. What would a squadron of fighters, able to fly much faster than Wedge or the Falcon, have been able to accomplish going into the Death Star Core? TIE Defender missiles would play a major part in this. How do you dodge a warhead when you can barely fit through the corridors?

You seem to think that Endor was a forgone conclusion, but as we saw in Yavin one advanced TIE turned what was essentially a turkey shoot for the Rebels into a near rout. Again, we see no signs of the initial TIEs once the initial dogfight is complete. Vader and his wingmen are the only things holding the Rebels back from a leisurely trip down the trench. Even with the Empire's defeat in that battle, Vader flying a TIE Advanced is the one thing that kept him from losing his life after his wingman collided with him.

If better fighters keep the best pilots alive, that alone can be a factor that changes entire battles.

In Legends, X-Wing pilots were trained to handle 3:1 odds when fighting TIE Fighters. Also in Legends, expert Imperial pilots could be trained to face dozens of Rebel fighters in simulations at once if they so desired to. Even if we narrowed the 250 fighter max of that mission to 10 X-Wings that can generally face 3 TIE Fighters apiece, that puts you at 30 TIE Fighters for every TIE Defender when it comes to worth. That means not even three Defenders could do the fighting of the entire complement of an ISD.

So what COULD a few squadrons of these do in a battle?

On 10/10/2017 at 1:21 AM, Norsehound said:

They're still the best fighters the Empire has on-deck that we've seen. I doubt even Rebels will wound the reputation of the Defender, even if it's likely Sabine will steal one (I hope to God we never see a hacked-up repaint of a TIE/D though).

I can see some high and mighty Imperial commander delivering a speciest-fueled rant to cap Thrawn's failure (for now) however. The delicious irony of it would be if that bit-admiral delivering the Tirade would be Admiral Zaarin.

Though in this time and place, the Zaarin-stand in would be unquestionably Krennic. If Krennic existed in Legends and lived beyond Hoth, he'd most definitely have done what Zaarin ended up doing.

from the catalyst book its heavily implied that Tarkin is going to assume command when krennic is done regardless. Galens betrayal just happens to be icing on the cake and the perfect excuse to boot krennic off the station. So even without rogue one I think krennic would have been forced into early retirement anyway. If there's time this season I'm sure we'll get Zaarin. Krennic isn't supposed to make an appearance this season. But an admiral competing with both thrawn and krennic for funding could. Maybe Zaarin is the tie phantom project lead now or something.

8 hours ago, flyboymb said:

I'll say it again, the Rebels were on the verge of retreating during Endor. A few more losses likely would have seen Akbar ignore Lando's pleas to continue the fight. Yes the battle initially was supposed to be a Death Star turkey shoot, but that was thrown away once the Rebels flew into the Imperial fleet.

What if enough corvettes and fighters were destroyed that the Executor's shields couldn't have been brought down? What if Arvel Crynyd had been shot down or been occupied by TIE Defenders instead of making an attack run towards the Executor's bridge? How many ISDs would be able to focus on the fight if the Rebel B-Wings and Y-Wings were wiped out thanks to high speed Imperial fighters with warheads. What would a squadron of fighters, able to fly much faster than Wedge or the Falcon, have been able to accomplish going into the Death Star Core? TIE Defender missiles would play a major part in this. How do you dodge a warhead when you can barely fit through the corridors?

You seem to think that Endor was a forgone conclusion, but as we saw in Yavin one advanced TIE turned what was essentially a turkey shoot for the Rebels into a near rout. Again, we see no signs of the initial TIEs once the initial dogfight is complete. Vader and his wingmen are the only things holding the Rebels back from a leisurely trip down the trench. Even with the Empire's defeat in that battle, Vader flying a TIE Advanced is the one thing that kept him from losing his life after his wingman collided with him.

If better fighters keep the best pilots alive, that alone can be a factor that changes entire battles.

In Legends, X-Wing pilots were trained to handle 3:1 odds when fighting TIE Fighters. Also in Legends, expert Imperial pilots could be trained to face dozens of Rebel fighters in simulations at once if they so desired to. Even if we narrowed the 250 fighter max of that mission to 10 X-Wings that can generally face 3 TIE Fighters apiece, that puts you at 30 TIE Fighters for every TIE Defender when it comes to worth. That means not even three Defenders could do the fighting of the entire complement of an ISD.

So what COULD a few squadrons of these do in a battle?

They were not going to retreat because retreating at this point meant losing the war, they only had one shot. They dived into dozens of Star Destroyers, ffs...

Executor was just a target of opportunity, and I'd wager that two more ISDs would me more useful than some Defenders, so if we assume Endor could be won in space, maybe the Imperial mistake was not having enough capships.
Interceptors and even /lns are faster than X-wings, smaller, faster and more agile than the Defenders, they were as good as you can get for that reactor chase.

In ANH you ignore that we don't see most of the Rebel fighters either. Vader kills 7, Porkins smashes into the surface, Luke, Wedge and an Y-wing survive, leaving us with 19 fighters unaccounted for.
And frankly, Vader didn't do anything impressive, if he weren't there, any of his wingmen could replace him.

Those numbers... I can't take them seriously, sorry.