8 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

In Rebels Season 3 Episode 2, KAnan is kicked into space without a breathmask. He manages to reach a hanger shield, but is visibly freezing from the cold and cannot breath as he approaches. He is NOT having his breath sucked out of him by vaccum.

Either there is something Jedi related going on, or there isnt actually an extreme pressure differential. "Aether in space" in Star wars is backed up by space fighters being designed like Aircraft, and more mundane concerns like sound in space.

Or the even more likely explanation "It's a work of fiction, and the people writing that fiction don't care."

You are assuming the people writing this give as much of a **** as you do, and there's no reason that has to be the case.

9 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

In Rebels Season 3 Episode 2, KAnan is kicked into space without a breathmask. He manages to reach a hanger shield, but is visibly freezing from the cold and cannot breath as he approaches. He is NOT having his breath sucked out of him by vaccum.

Either there is something Jedi related going on, or there isnt actually an extreme pressure differential. "Aether in space" in Star wars is backed up by space fighters being designed like Aircraft, and more mundane concerns like sound in space.

Uh.

Scientific experiments have proven that surviving a vacuum for limited times is not only possible, but easy. (can't believe I have to cover this again). Dogs survived for up to 90 seconds with no apparent lasting problems, and chimpanzees for up to 3 and a half minutes. One man was exposed to vacuum in a test chamber accident, lost consciousness, but was revived 30 seconds after losing consciousness when the pressure rose back up to non-vacuum levels.

The best estimate for losing consciousness is about 15 seconds, because if you try to hold your breath... bad things will happen, not "water balloon explosion" but severe damage to your lungs and soft tissues, and 15 seconds is when the oxygen already in your blood stops circulating to your brain.

Kanan was exposed to vacuum for the duration of 23 seconds on-screen, and very definitely was NOT holding his breath (he was yelling as he was ejected into space). Jedi, we know, can control their body's autonomous functions, so him surviving that amount of time is perfectly reasonable given what we know scientifically in real life and in the Star Wars universe.

And I believe they mention that in the rebel recon as well at some point, but right now I'm too busy to go hunting it down. So yes, they do 'give a **** as much as you do'.

13 hours ago, iamfanboy said:

Kanan was exposed to vacuum for the duration of 23 seconds on-screen, and very definitely was NOT holding his breath (he was yelling as he was ejected into space).

Which probably saved him. "Explosive decompression", in as much as it's ever a thing at all, is only a thing if you're stupidly trying to hold onto some pressure.

So remember, kids, if you're about to be sucked out an airlock, don't hold your breath!

I remember reading somewhere that if you are suddenly deprived of oxygen, you have about 30 seconds before you lose consciousness. If Kanan's exposure was only 23 seconds, this is well within the bounds of realism and doesn't even require Jedi powers. It takes a minute or two for the body to start suffering serious damage as the various fluids in it try to simultaneously freeze and boil.

"I don't know what this is about."
-Obi Wan Ben Larry Kenobi

Well it is a fictional Universe, created by a dude who imagined a romantisised space opera and expanded upon by regular nerd dudes and dudettes, who most likely do not know all that much about science stuff ™

I think discussing these details has relatively little reason, except for fun maybe, as it does not affect the plots in serious ways.
I mean we have hyperdriving Space Whales, for christs sake, nobody's going to complain about that?

They do enough research for a (whatever genere Star Wars is)-Universe and explain it well enought, that I think one could leave it at that.

2 hours ago, digitalbusker said:

Which probably saved him. "Explosive decompression", in as much as it's ever a thing at all, is only a thing if you're stupidly trying to hold onto some pressure.

So remember, kids, if you're about to be sucked out an airlock, don't hold your breath!

And if space travel is common, it's probably a well-known safety fact uncorrupted by stupid movie syndrome.

As far as fighters in Star Wars behaving like those in an atmosphere...

They don't.

Most ships exist without any actual flight surfaces (TIE Fighters? B-Wings?) and those which do have flight surface-like arrangements (X-Wings? K-Wings?) lack any ailerons or flaps, making them as aerodynamically maneuverable as a thrown brick. Even if there were an 'aetheric' space, they still don't have the means to fly.

I believe the officially unofficial explanation has always been vectored thrust; the engine output can 'tilt' in order to allow course changes and (in fighters) extreme maneuvers like the Koiogran and Segnor. I don't know if this was ever incorporated into any official diagrams, however; I'm not geeky enough to buy one of those books.

1 hour ago, iamfanboy said:

Most ships exist without any actual flight surfaces (TIE Fighters? B-Wings?) and those which do have flight surface-like arrangements (X-Wings? K-Wings?) lack any ailerons or flaps, making them as aerodynamically maneuverable as a thrown brick. Even if there were an 'aetheric' space, they still don't have the means to fly.

I believe the officially unofficial explanation has always been vectored thrust; the engine output can 'tilt' in order to allow course changes and (in fighters) extreme maneuvers like the Koiogran and Segnor. I don't know if this was ever incorporated into any official diagrams, however; I'm not geeky enough to buy one of those books.

Sure, but visually they're all clearly executing banks, rolls, and other maneuvers that only make sense when moving through a fluid medium like air.

In (our) space, there's no reason for your ship to go through a long curved turn where the nose is always pointed in the direction of travel. Just turn the ship and burn in the direction you now want to go. Battlestar Galactica and Babylon Five had reasonably faithful interpretations of this.

On 2/6/2017 at 10:17 PM, Black Knight Leader said:

...
We clearly see in the Stele Chronicles and Blade Squadron, let alone tech books, that they have multiple different power setting for there cannons
...

Which, of course, we can ignore since they are EU material and not canon.

On 2/9/2017 at 8:18 AM, Rakaydos said:

In Rebels Season 3 Episode 2, KAnan is kicked into space without a breathmask. He manages to reach a hanger shield, but is visibly freezing from the cold and cannot breath as he approaches. He is NOT having his breath sucked out of him by vaccum.

Either there is something Jedi related going on, or there isnt actually an extreme pressure differential. "Aether in space" in Star wars is backed up by space fighters being designed like Aircraft, and more mundane concerns like sound in space.

Heck, you don't even have to go into the CGI series for examples.

Second Star Wars movie released - Han and Leia getting equipped to walk around what they believe to be a tunnel in an asteroid exposed to space ...

QED - 'space' in the Star Wars universe is not a vacuum. Pretty obviously lower-pressue (there are decompression effects when pressure rapidly changes, say via an explosion), and clearly not oxygen...but not even close to a vacuum.

Although if you really want to go 'Rebels'...

...Hi - we're in deep space, that's why we need to wear (only) masks!

So, uh. About the inside of the worm... nowhere does it say they're in a vacuum. If they're in a low-pressure area (like exists on, say, the top of Everest?) without much oxygen to sustain their breathing, or filled with a gas that's not breathable but not immediately destructive (halon? Helium?) they'd need the masks to breathe but could walk around with faces exposed.

*looks at the novelization* Huh, says stuff about "there's a lot of moisture in here" and "damp conditions" so DEFINITELY not a vacuum.

And the asteroid in Rebels? It's self evident that there exists an atmosphere - no matter how low pressure - there. How? Because the precious fuel gas isn't boiling away . There HAS to be another gas sitting on top of the Tibanna-knockoff, keeping it there, otherwise there wouldn't BE any Tibanna-knockoff.

It doesn't have to be breathable for humans. Note that the mining workers there are not human and walking around without any masks at all!

And yet we know that the aetheric version doesn't work, because what Kanan goes through on his little space jaunt is identical to what you'd go through if someone dumped you out an airlock.

Science. It's what's for dinner.

1 hour ago, digitalbusker said:

Sure, but visually they're all clearly executing banks, rolls, and other maneuvers that only make sense when moving through a fluid medium like air.

In (our) space, there's no reason for your ship to go through a long curved turn where the nose is always pointed in the direction of travel. Just turn the ship and burn in the direction you now want to go. Battlestar Galactica and Babylon Five had reasonably faithful interpretations of this.

If we go with vectored thrust engines limited by the degrees available for the exhaust ports we can pick up any mini and examine (maybe 60-80 degrees?), you'd still have to bank and roll in order to execute maneuvers. B5 and BSG had thruster ports at various points on their ships to allow those maneuvers, while still having the main thrusters in back.

I mean, yeah. It's an oversight in the 'science' fiction part of scifi as far as SW goes. But it's still reasonable when considered from a certain point of view.

Vectored thrust in a frictionless environment doesn't look like what we see in Star Wars.

9 minutes ago, digitalbusker said:

Vectored thrust in a frictionless environment doesn't look like what we see in Star Wars.

And yet the aetheric argument falls apart on multiple levels. At the most basic, beginner level of Star Wars it says "TIE Fighter pilots wear pressure suits because the inside of their ships are not pressurized"; if we were positing an aetheric universe they could be flying around in their underwear and it wouldn't matter - all they'd need is facemasks.

Other evidence, both EU and canon, support this. Why bother having forcefields separating hangars from space if it's aetheric and thus has atmosphere of its own? We see depressurization incidents in multiple sources.

We don't know that "Vectored thrust in a frictionless enviroment doesn't look like Star Wars" because we don't have access to Star Wars levels of technology. You can easily posit that creating a barrel roll would be as easy as simply sliding the vector of thrust from a single engine along an arc - and while there's no evidence FOR it, there is a lot of evidence AGAINST an aetheric space.

2 hours ago, xanderf said:

Which, of course, we can ignore since they are EU material and not canon.

Second Star Wars movie released - Han and Leia getting equipped to walk around what they believe to be a tunnel in an asteroid exposed to space ...

QED - 'space' in the Star Wars universe is not a vacuum. Pretty obviously lower-pressue (there are decompression effects when pressure rapidly changes, say via an explosion), and clearly not oxygen...but not even close to a vacuum.

The Asteroid (just as the one in Rebels) sportet a thin Atmosphere, you qed' nothing here, mister.
And to why the Space Whales and Space Worms can survive in space: not all organisms need to breathe, even on earth.

As I mentioned earlier, the Star Wars Story team is not oblivious to otherwise obvious logical flaws and has an in universe, sensical explanation for everything that needs one, just like the atmosphere on the asteroids (which supply pressure and maybe a thin, breathable gas, which does not kill you immideatly)

The out universe explanation is probably that the common idea was that the lack of breathable gas kills you in space, while it is the pressure.

52 minutes ago, iamfanboy said:

And yet the aetheric argument falls apart on multiple levels. At the most basic, beginner level of Star Wars it says "TIE Fighter pilots wear pressure suits because the inside of their ships are not pressurized"; if we were positing an aetheric universe they could be flying around in their underwear and it wouldn't matter - all they'd need is facemasks.

Other evidence, both EU and canon, support this. Why bother having forcefields separating hangars from space if it's aetheric and thus has atmosphere of its own? We see depressurization incidents in multiple sources.

We don't know that "Vectored thrust in a frictionless enviroment doesn't look like Star Wars" because we don't have access to Star Wars levels of technology. You can easily posit that creating a barrel roll would be as easy as simply sliding the vector of thrust from a single engine along an arc - and while there's no evidence FOR it, there is a lot of evidence AGAINST an aetheric space.

There's middle ground that can be worked with. For instance, if aether provides pressure only to energy constructs. So you need a magcon to hold in "normal" air, but you can build a non aerodynamic wing that has an aether wing inside it, complete with control surfaces.

1 hour ago, iamfanboy said:

And yet the aetheric argument falls apart on multiple levels.

I'm not arguing for aetheric space. I'm pointing out that what we see in the source material makes no sense except on the level of "This was storyboarded by people who had watched a lot of footage of WWII dogfights, and did not care whether what they made made sense as long as it looked cool."

Is it theoretically possible for a ship in realistic Newtonian space to execute maneuvers that look like what we see in the movies? I guess. But it would be much more complicated and less effective militarily than just flying the way objects fly in space.

"It's no good, I can't shake him!"

"Hey, uh, Blue 3, just spit-balling here, but how about you temporarily disable the Cinematic Flight Systems, spin your ship around 180 degrees in frictionless space without losing any forward momentum, and just shoot the guy who's right behind you?"

"...shut up."

22 minutes ago, digitalbusker said:

I'm not arguing for aetheric space. I'm pointing out that what we see in the source material makes no sense except on the level of "This was storyboarded by people who had watched a lot of footage of WWII dogfights, and did not care whether what they made made sense as long as it looked cool."

Is it theoretically possible for a ship in realistic Newtonian space to execute maneuvers that look like what we see in the movies? I guess. But it would be much more complicated and less effective militarily than just flying the way objects fly in space.

"It's no good, I can't shake him!"

"Hey, uh, Blue 3, just spit-balling here, but how about you temporarily disable the Cinematic Flight Systems, spin your ship around 180 degrees in frictionless space without losing any forward momentum, and just shoot the guy who's right behind you?"

"...shut up."

Do the ship's gyrostabilizers have any control over a ship's maneuverability in combat? Observation would seem to indicate they do not , and the only vector control that the ships have (aside from repulsorlifts in gravity wells) are their rear-facing engines.

It would be great if the Star Wars space dogfights felt more like space dogfights (I miss B5...) but we can't project too much of our own reality into theirs. Yes, plainly the source material for the dogfights is based off of WWII. But in-universe they don't pull those funky maneuvers, so they must not be capable of doing so. Perhaps the gravity control that prevents the pilots from being utterly crushed by g -forces and ships to have decks at 90 degrees from the thrust direction is at fault?

We don't know. But there must be an in-universe reason they don't "turn off the cinematic system."

5 minutes ago, iamfanboy said:

But there must be an in-universe reason they don't "turn off the cinematic system."

I think that's the place where you and I aren't going to meet. I'm perfectly happy not to have an explanation for it beyond "movies".

12 hours ago, xanderf said:

Which, of course, we can ignore since they are EU material and not canon.

Actually blade squadron confirmed cannon here:

http://www.starwarsunderworld.com/2014/06/star-wars-insider-fiction-part-of.html

Oh my god, would you people shut the **** up with the trying to apply science to Star Wars? Or at least, find some other thread to discuss it in.

10 hours ago, iamfanboy said:

But there must be an in-universe reason they don't "turn off the cinematic system."

No, there mustn't, because IT'S NOT REAL!

2 hours ago, DarthEnderX said:

No, there mustn't, because IT'S NOT REAL!

Shush now, don't upset them.

5 hours ago, DarthEnderX said:

Oh my god, would you people shut the **** up with the trying to apply science to Star Wars? Or at least, find some other thread to discuss it in.

No, there mustn't, because IT'S NOT REAL!

Thank you for speaking up!

Trials of the Darksaber aired in the U.K. today. There was a fair amount of hype from people who had streamed it, but boy did it live up to that hype. The stick training sequences, Ezra and Sabine doing forms and Kanan's history lesson really made the episode for me. That said, I don't think there was a diff note or a poor performance anywhere in the episode. Chopper purring when Sabine stroked him as she walked by to go to the council of was was a genius idea. Also, Kanan adopting the Duku fencing pose was a superb touch. All in all I couldn't have enjoyed it more.

On 2/10/2017 at 1:11 PM, iamfanboy said:

And if space travel is common, it's probably a well-known safety fact uncorrupted by stupid movie syndrome.

As far as fighters in Star Wars behaving like those in an atmosphere...

They don't.

Most ships exist without any actual flight surfaces (TIE Fighters? B-Wings?) and those which do have flight surface-like arrangements (X-Wings? K-Wings?) lack any ailerons or flaps, making them as aerodynamically maneuverable as a thrown brick. Even if there were an 'aetheric' space, they still don't have the means to fly.

I believe the officially unofficial explanation has always been vectored thrust; the engine output can 'tilt' in order to allow course changes and (in fighters) extreme maneuvers like the Koiogran and Segnor. I don't know if this was ever incorporated into any official diagrams, however; I'm not geeky enough to buy one of those books.

Even if they had ailerons or flaps, they wouldn't be any more aerodynamic. The wings are flat on both top and bottom, and mounted perfectly in line with the fuselage, so there's no angle-of-attack whatsoever. They wouldn't even be able to do an uncontrolled glide - they're all air resistance, and no lift.

I'm big into hard sci-fi, but I just shut off that part of my brain when I watch Star Wars. Don't try to make things make scientific sense - the series always puts Rule of Cool first, and really, there's nothing wrong with that, considering we're talking about a set of stories that include space wizards with laser swords anyway

Regardless of their shape, capital ships maneuver like seafaring warships and starfighters maneuver like WW2 dogfighters. This makes no scientific sense but nor does much in Star Wars.

Quote

As far as fighters in Star Wars behaving like those in an atmosphere...

They don't.

Most ships exist without any actual flight surfaces (TIE Fighters? B-Wings?) and those which do have flight surface-like arrangements (X-Wings? K-Wings?) lack any ailerons or flaps, making them as aerodynamically maneuverable as a thrown brick. Even if there were an 'aetheric' space, they still don't have the means to fly.

What you're explaining is why they shouldn't behave like they're atmospheric, not why they don't. And you can't explain why they don't because they do.

16 hours ago, DarthEnderX said:

Oh my god, would you people shut the **** up with the trying to apply science to Star Wars? Or at least, find some other thread to discuss it in.

No, there mustn't, because IT'S NOT REAL!

So what?

It's a fun little thought experiment that sharpens the wits and gives those of us interested the option to engage in discourse - I hadn't thought about aetheric space as an explanation for Star Wars at all, and hadn't thought about aetheric space since playing D&D Spelljammer.

Besides, what else is there to do in this thread over the season break other than start a pool on who dies first, Kanan or Zeb?

6 hours ago, Blue Five said:

Regardless of their shape, capital ships maneuver like seafaring warships and starfighters maneuver like WW2 dogfighters. This makes no scientific sense but nor does much in Star Wars.

What you're explaining is why they shouldn't behave like they're atmospheric, not why they don't. And you can't explain why they don't because they do.

The notion I have is that it has something to do with the gravitational control which exists in Star Wars. The pilots behave as though they're in 1- g regardless of fancy maneuvers, so it does extend to the fighters, and the ships are at a 90-degree angle to the direction of motion, so they have it too. And it makes perfect sense to have that level of gravity control; we know that high- g is unhealthy, and extended low- g is even worse.

An interaction with that technology might be what makes the fighters and ships behave like they're in an atmosphere; perhaps it resists sudden changes in vector?

As unsupported as that notion is one way or the other, we do know that there's no aetheric 'atmosphere' in Star Wars - there's actual evidence against it in the form of decompression events.