Genocide on planetary scale is trivial in context of the galactic civilisation. It's less significant on galactic scale than the bombing of nagasaki or dresden on earth scale. Especially as planetary scale in the galaxy far far away is often less than the population of either of those cities. And the scale of those attacks was rather limited, the war would have been a total different one if it would have been a war of extermination. And the separatist senate would never have accept such a war in the first place, the war crimes had to be small enough to hide it from their own senate and population.

5 Million clone troopers was considered a large number for the war efforts, so indeed, a proxy war which only small investments.

10 hours ago, Forresto said:

Not to go on a tangent but reading Karen Traviss brings up another old "wound" from when the Clone Wars began to rewrite the canon. I honestly think Traviss had a far greater vision for the Clone culture and Clone Wars then Filoni and team had. Don't get me wrong i'm fine with Rex and Fives and all them, they were great, and the Clone Wars show had great elements. However whereas Traviss's material always made it seem to me that there was a massive war happening even when we're focusing tightly on a squad, The Clone Wars show never made the war feel huge. TCW could feel epic at times but when a war is involving as many worlds and people as the Clone Wars did it should always have an epic feel even when focused and that can be done through dialogue which require finesse in writing abilities.

As for the clones well, the way they're portrayed in the Republic Commando books is fantastic. Scenes where all the clones are chanting Vode An and the jedi commander can't hear it because they aren't in the inter helmet comm system are awesome. That's what the show never gave us, and could've instead of doing a four episode arc on D-Squad , was delve into the Clone Trooper's culture. They would've developed one. Why didnt they just hire Traviss on to write a clone arc? Or James Luceno who also wrote some incredible Clone Wars era material?

I don't dislike Filoni, and with the Clone Wars i'm not sure how much is him or Lucas, but people give him a lot of credit that I don't think is necessarily earned. He's been excellent in Rebels and there are many amazing elements of TCW I know he's responsible for but that show could have been so much better.

(Apologies btw and allow me this short rant Its been brewing for some years)

Agreed, for all the flaws of Traviss' writing, she did write the clones and the war extremely well. I also liked the idea that the Clones simply followed orders without question and that's what happened in Order 66 as opposed to mind control chips. It makes it even more emotional when you realize Cody took that shot at Obi-Wan with full knowledge and consent of what he's doing as opposed to mind control.

In the end, TCW did a great job with Rex, Fives, Jesse and crew, but we don't really see that focus, or that culture except in the Umbara arc (which is what TCW should've been like from the start).

42 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Especially as planetary scale in the galaxy far far away is often less than the population of either of those cities. And the scale of those attacks was rather limited, the war would have been a total different one if it would have been a war of extermination. And the separatist senate would never have accept such a war in the first place, the war crimes had to be small enough to hide it from their own senate and population.

Many worlds in the galaxy have small populations, but those inhabited worlds are frequently colonized worlds with no sentient indigenous species.

Read Dark Disciple. The book opens with Dooku ordering the extermination of a species at their homeworld. In the same book, the CIS senate gives Dooku a humanitarian award. They were totally unaware of the attrocities.

27 minutes ago, YwingAce said:

Agreed, for all the flaws of Traviss' writing, she did write the clones and the war extremely well. I also liked the idea that the Clones simply followed orders without question and that's what happened in Order 66 as opposed to mind control chips. It makes it even more emotional when you realize Cody took that shot at Obi-Wan with full knowledge and consent of what he's doing as opposed to mind control.

No, it doesn't make sense at all.

You either have the clones to be just organic droids, or to be human beings. Traviss consistently wrote them like humans and then tried to pull the bull that order 66 was just a normal order and that all the clones who fought side by side with the Jedi for three years got the order to kill their commanders and without any hesitation, within a split second they all decided "ah, OK then, die Jedi dogs". That's not how humans work.

And obviously Traviss' team of special snowflakes was the only group that didn't obey the order

15 minutes ago, eMeM said:

No, it doesn't make sense at all.

You either have the clones to be just organic droids, or to be human beings. Traviss consistently wrote them like humans and then tried to pull the bull that order 66 was just a normal order and that all the clones who fought side by side with the Jedi for three years got the order to kill their commanders and without any hesitation, within a split second they all decided "ah, OK then, die Jedi dogs". That's not how humans work.

And obviously Traviss' team of special snowflakes was the only group that didn't obey the order

In her canon, there was a list of contingency orders including Order 66. Order 66 basically said, "The Jedi tried a coup to seize the government, defend the Republic". Remember, the Clones were ultimately loyal to the Republic and the Chancellor, not the Jedi.

7 minutes ago, YwingAce said:

In her canon, there was a list of contingency orders including Order 66. Order 66 basically said, "The Jedi tried a coup to seize the government, defend them". Remember, the Clones were ultimately loyal to the Republic and the Chancellor, not the Jedi.

Three years side by side. Kill him. OK. No questions, no attempt to arrest, no hesitation, split second decision - raise the gun, aim at the back, pull the trigger.

That's not a human behaviour. Organic droid or mind control.

Just now, eMeM said:

Three years side by side. Kill him. OK. No questions, no attempt to arrest, no hesitation, split second decision - raise the gun, aim at the back, pull the trigger.

That's not a human behaviour. Organic droid or mind controll.

Remember the clones were biologically engineered to be loyal and to trust the supreme chancellor above all else. If he tells them the Jedi have betrayed them, they'll believe it. Also remember in her canon, alot of the clones didn't get along with their jedi, so it was good riddance for them.

Edit: Nevermind, misread.

The chips have to be specifically for Order 66, because as we saw at Umbara, the Clones can disobey orders.

9 minutes ago, YwingAce said:

Remember the clones were biologically engineered to be loyal and to trust the supreme chancellor above all else. If he tells them the Jedi have betrayed them, they'll believe it. Also remember in her canon, alot of the clones didn't get along with their jedi, so it was good riddance for them.

In her canon everybody hates Jedi because she personally hates Jedi.

Also in her canon a group of clones said "**** you" to the Republic and Sheev, and went to live the perfect life of the perfect Mandosuelorians on the perfect planet of Manalosuelore. Top notch biological engineering.

26 minutes ago, YwingAce said:

Remember the clones were biologically engineered to be loyal and to trust the supreme chancellor above all else. If he tells them the Jedi have betrayed them, they'll believe it.

At that point, how is it really any different from having a chip?

25 minutes ago, DarthEnderX said:

At that point, how is it really any different from having a chip?

I am pretty sure that it uses different words, better words like bioengineered instead of biochips.

4 hours ago, DarthEnderX said:

At that point, how is it really any different from having a chip?

Because it's conditioning, propaganda, and a natural inclination to believe Palpatine over the Jedi as opposed to mind control.

5 hours ago, eMeM said:

In her canon everybody hates Jedi because she personally hates Jedi.

Also in her canon a group of clones said "**** you" to the Republic and Sheev, and went to live the perfect life of the perfect Mandosuelorians on the perfect planet of Manalosuelore. Top notch biological engineering.

I never said that she was a good writer, simply that her Clone culture was fleshed out better, and that I liked the idea of Order 66 being a choice rather than mind-control better.

5 minutes ago, YwingAce said:

Because it's conditioning, propaganda, and a natural inclination to believe Palpatine over the Jedi as opposed to mind control.

I would consider all of those things to be forms of mind control.

Just now, DarthEnderX said:

I would consider all of those things to be forms of mind control.

No because there's still choice involved even if your choice is heavily weighted to a certain side. Mind control completely removes the choice.

You mean like what Ezra did to that walker pilot?

36 minutes ago, DarthEnderX said:

I would consider all of those things to be forms of mind control.

35 minutes ago, YwingAce said:

No because there's still choice involved even if your choice is heavily weighted to a certain side. Mind control completely removes the choice.

Yes, and no.

There are plenty of instances in real history of perfectly civilized and rational human beings doing horrific things to their own people because of loyalty to a figure or a cause. I think that many of us have skewed perspectives from living in free-ish and moral societies; that it is not uncommon to think that humans are just basically good and have some innate loyalty or ethics or whatnot.

As far as I can tell, this is not true.

Humans (and by extension human clones) are very intelligent creatures, yet like all creatures they start off their lives completely empty save for their base instincts. In this state they are as inherently good as the wild animals they would become without training. They can be trained to be good and conditioned to think of things according to a specific set of morals, but they can also can be trained to think differently and have different morals. The clones have been brought up from birth in an isolated, controlled, militaristic society; thus their designers have complete reign over their code of ethics. I see little reason they would not, if ordered, kill the Jedi; even ones they were friends with - it's not in their ethic to pick friendship over duty to the state.

I had a conversation like this with a paratrooper buddy of mine concerning China. I'd lived there for a decent while and found most of the people to be friendly and appreciative of the U.S. and so when the conversation steered towards the potential of a war with China I expressed my skepticism. "But they like Americans," I said, "I just can't see a regular Chinese citizen wanting to attack us." He said "Sure they might not want to; but what they want doesn't factor into it." "The government has control over them and their families, and they are nothing if not loyal to their homeland. They might feel bad while attacking us, but that's little comfort to you if you're dead."

So yeah, I'm not a big fan of the biochips. I felt it was more tragic and impactful when the clones chose their duty over their friendship with the Jedi; and it made surviving clones and Jedi an easy thing to do - the clones that didn't follow the order chose friendship over duty.

I think the circumstances are very important here. It's not an army ordered to attack another country. It's an army ordered to kill their commanders sometimes in the middle of a firefight. And they just do that, instead of for example attempting an arrest. We know that the most common GAR blaster rifles had stun setting.

Also, the text of Order 66 according to everyone's favourite author:

In the event of Jedi officers acting against the interests of the Republic, and after receiving specific orders verified as coming directly from the Supreme Commander (Chancellor), GAR commanders will remove those officers by lethal force, and command of the GAR will revert to the Supreme Commander (Chancellor) until a new command structure is established.

Remove by lethal force. Not an expert on English military vocabulary, does that simply mean "kill"?

If yes, Jedi are idiots. There is no reason not to formulate this order differently so that killing would be the last resort.

If no, nothing makes sense.

1 hour ago, OneKelvin said:

So yeah, I'm not a big fan of the biochips. I felt it was more tragic and impactful when the clones chose their duty over their friendship with the Jedi; and it made surviving clones and Jedi an easy thing to do - the clones that didn't follow the order chose friendship over duty.

See, I don't think Palpatine could afford to risk giving them a choice. It also takes away from the characters we consider the good Jedi - Obi-Wan, Yoda, Plo Koon, Aayla Secura etc. must have been bad for their soilders if they just shot them in the back without hesitation while some other clones decided to spare their commanders.

19 minutes ago, eMeM said:

I think the circumstances are very important here. It's not an army ordered to attack another country. It's an army ordered to kill their commanders sometimes in the middle of a firefight. And they just do that, instead of for example attempting an arrest. We know that the most common GAR blaster rifles had stun setting.

Also, the text of Order 66 according to everyone's favourite author:

In the event of Jedi officers acting against the interests of the Republic, and after receiving specific orders verified as coming directly from the Supreme Commander (Chancellor), GAR commanders will remove those officers by lethal force, and command of the GAR will revert to the Supreme Commander (Chancellor) until a new command structure is established.

Remove by lethal force. Not an expert on English military vocabulary, does that simply mean "kill"?

If yes, Jedi are idiots. There is no reason not to formulate this order differently so that killing would be the last resort.

If no, nothing makes sense.

See, I don't think Palpatine could afford to risk giving them a choice. It also takes away from the characters we consider the good Jedi - Obi-Wan, Yoda, Plo Koon, Aayla Secura etc. must have been bad for their soilders if they just shot them in the back without hesitation while some other clones decided to spare their commanders.

The Jedi weren't integral to the GAR though: they were integrated into command roles, but there were real generals and admirals in actual command. The Jedi were something akin to PMCs, a private organization running military missions and working with military troops. And remember what I said; goodness has nothing to do with it, their soldiers were told that they were traitors to the Republic, and ordered to kill them. And yes, lethal force means kill.

If you can't try to see it from their point of view, you'll never be able to understand:

You are a Clone. Raised by aliens in a white-walled blacksite facility, trained for nothing but combat since they pulled you out of your tank. Your life was created for a single purpose: to safeguard the Republic from all threats external and internal at the behest of your all-knowing commanders. That purpose is your life .

You don't watch Game of Thrones on Saturdays, you don't go on picnics with your grandparents, you don't watch political debates on TV or grumble about the weather to your girlfriend. You are, always have been, and always will be a soldier; nothing more, nothing less. Honor is carrying out your orders, entertainment is testing out a new weapon, family consists of your squadmates, your commander is God. These Jedi are useful and deadly, they make you think of new ideas sometimes, but they come from outside of your world; they are not clones, they are not your direct commanders, and as far as you know high command doesn't trust them too much because there is an order to kill them in case they try to take over the Republic for themselves.

Today they tried to take over the Republic - if you do not carry out your orders they will likely kill you just as fast as they destroyed those droids. They have proved by their traitorous actions that they are no true comrades of yours; if you really care for them, the best thing you can do is kill them quickly.

We talked about this, my buddy and I.

He didn't like that they tried to make the clones so human . Given their background, it just didn't make sense for them to act like people that had a life outside of military service.

If only the movies count, sure.

But that's not how TCW and Traviss showed clones and their relationship with the Jedi. Even the Jedi hating Traviss clones bonded with their Jedi.

And TCW is canon - which shows the clones admiring the Jedi, protecting the Jedi, with the reverse also being true.

I actually think the strongest part of The Clone Wars is showing how human the clones are. Engineered to obey orders, age at twice the rate, and be selfless? Yes. But showing the inferiority of droids when stacked up against a being with the ability to adapt to new situations and reach beyond programming. The best episodes are the ones where we see that even from an identical genetic template they reach for their individuality and achieve it - human beings are not just our genes, we can shape our own lives.

I'm... going to say something that I didn't think I'd say about the prequels. George Lucas's idea for the clone army is more interesting than the original EU notion Timothy Zahn presented . The movies are meh, but TCW reveals the potential of the idea... sometimes.

So, realization I had about the Darksaber (still hate that name!) In another forum, someone brought up another EU standard that was utterly crushed by this week's episode: The lightsaber and how they function. I was writing about how the Force is for everyone, not just Jedi, and blah blah blah, when it made think of something.

We know that Force use is enhanced by belief and confidence. We now know that lightsabers act as a conduit for the Force through a person and forms a blade from it. So how do those things work together with the Darksaber?

The Darksaber is old , but maybe that isn't what gives it power. Perhaps what gives it the extra power is the importance Mandalorians give it - it's quite possible they all empower it with their Force connection, subconsciously. It isn't just a lightsaber... it is Mandalore , a channel for their aggression and warrior instincts.

Now THAT'S a neat idea, no?

10 hours ago, OneKelvin said:

Yes, and no.

There are plenty of instances in real history of perfectly civilized and rational human beings doing horrific things to their own people because of loyalty to a figure or a cause. I think that many of us have skewed perspectives from living in free-ish and moral societies; that it is not uncommon to think that humans are just basically good and have some innate loyalty or ethics or whatnot.

As far as I can tell, this is not true.

As far as I can tell is your perspective already odd, because we are perfectly civilized and rational human beings and still do horrific things to our own people. Moral societies does not cut with with so skewed wealth distributions, widespread acceptance of de-facto slavery, human trafficking on a constant rise since 20 years and acceptable collateral damage in the war on terror which accounts for rates which allow to 1:50 or even 1:500 rates. Then there is the widespread acceptance or at least tolerance for torture, daylight robbery, sexual exploitation, a new rise of the "alternative" right, wealth distribution, etc

We are educated to be civilized. If anything, humans might be actually good at base (because that is an evolutionary advantage) and become educated to accept a certain amount of perfidy and in which cases you get away with not being good.

And now back to topic, it still absurd to expect basic human beings to turn around like that, without regrets, emotion or anything when order 66 was issued, it makes the clones inhuman in the most basic meaning of the word. Biochips work here just as good as "bioengineering", and the argument that they are loyal to the republic and the chancellor only rings true if you assume inhumans, because the clones are forfeiting in that very moment anything the republic stands for. If you add the tcw angle that many clones consider themselves as slaves it becomes even more conflicting with the Traviss version.

I think that the biochips were a necessary storytelling device by the end of TCW. In episodes II and III, we saw only minimal interaction between the Clones and Jedi. Having Order 66 as a secret command was believable in the context it was presented at the time.

TCW changed that by showing a 3 years of shared struggles with the Jedi and Clones fighting side-by-side and back-to-back. After all that character development for the Clones, it made Order 66 less convincing as a choice because every Clone obeyed, even those that we knew had established genuine freindships with their Jedi leaders. So biochips were introduced to answer the question of why no Clone even hesitated to carry out the order.

The thing is, that struggle had been always, even in the movies been many years of war, we have a larger time-skip between AotC and RotS. Now Lukas is a little notorious for making up **** on the fly and claiming afterwards that he always had it planned this way, but I would assume that he had at least those chips or something similar in mind when he added order 66 to his RotS scripted.

Your trying to rationalize what normal people would do when the clones are basically slaves, and they're intelligent enough to understand that. The fact that the jedi are willing enough to exploit that to win a war should be enough to cause resentment amongst the ranks of even the most disciplined. The Jedi are not noble, they're slave masters plain and simple and honestly had what was coming. They sold their souls to win a war to ensure their own political stability and power.

It doesn't matter how nice a slavemaster is, they still hold the chains, and if your the slave your completely justified in killing that person to gain your freedom.

In the pre TCW canon, and to a degree even in it, the clones intermix with locals on planets and experience tastes of what its like to live a free normal independent life. The clones will never get that and they know this and yet ironically have to fight for the freedom of others. That would breed resentment as well, targeted at those who lead them. Yes Palpatine as supreme chancellor is also responsible as is the senate but its the jedi who become the poster boy for the immoral war machine of the Republic to the Clones.

Those clones who form attachments to different Jedi? Stockholm Syndrome. Remember the clone on Salecumai with the Twilek and kids? The one who became a traitor and spy for the Separatists? Even in TCW we see flashes of this.

Considering there are only 10,000 jedi and at least 5 to 6 million clone troopers, although I think there are far more, most wouldn't have formed an attachment to their generals and commanders. Order 66 is entirely justified and considering the lives of the clones I can totally buy them turning on their jedi masters. Most Jedi probably were not like the nice we see on TCW such as Plo Koon or Anakain. Most were more likely similar to Ayala Secrua and Luminara Unduli, traditional straight laced adherents to the Jedi code, who were not cruel but very indifferent and unattached to their troopers as is the Jedi way.