The shame in his eye is so well done in that first gif.

Jup. Basically all the conflict which Vader still has years later when facing his son in the throne room of the emperor.

Another interesting thing to notice for people who hate all the weird lightsabers... 3 of the 4 inquisitors we have met died due to their sabers getting damaged.
Meanwhile Maul's double ender looses to a single blade, the pistol-saber is destroyed, and the dual-reversegrip functionally looses (Vader definitivly lives, Ashoka possibly does but either way has exited the story). We have also now seen two crossguard sabers, and niether works quite right (yes one was thousands of years old, but you get my point).
View the episode this way:

Saber Type Number Shown Won final fight Died/Injured/Survived
Dual Bladed Sabers: 4 (3 spin, 1 normal) 0 3/0/1
Classic Single: 2 2 0/2/0

Dual Sabers: 1 -? ?/0/? (Unclear, ambigiously departed show)
Pistol Sabre: 1 0 0/1/0 (minor but disarmed)

Interpretation:
the three using single single bladed sabers (including ezra on this one) all survived, even though this category arguably includes the two least experienced combatants.

three of the four double blade users were repeatedly roundly trounced before being slaughtered, the fourth was only victorious against other double bladers, while being assisted by single bladers, even though he is debatebly the second most experienced/dangerous combatant.

The Dual Weilder is very unclear, having a deal in common with maul in terms of mostly fighting in a group, further in her one solo fight the conclusion is unclear, but we can see that while she was damaging vader, she certainly was not definitivly trouncing him, to the point he had time to concentrate on attacking others during their fight.

So perhaps fans of the old classics can content themselves with the simple answer of "the classic is simply the most efficient and effective option in the long run".

So I saw the episode... It was ok up till the part Darth Vader loses... I know you don't see it on screen but that is the only way Anakins apprentice would be able to walk away from that fight.

It's really the biggest thing that annoys me from that episode...so VERY badly...even after repeated viewings and a week has passed, and it just...GAH. **** near kills the series for me.

It's rule NUMBER ONE in any creative process - "don't be afraid to kill your darlings".

It's why 90% of fan productions suck - someone spend X hours on making a new CGI ship, so X percent of the film has to be glamor shots of the model from this angle...from that angle...showing it off. When it's a BACKGROUND ship! Probably mostly obstructed by some actor in the only scene it appears in. But 'actors' are boring (and for fan films - VERY cheap), so if they only cost 10% of the film, they should only take up 10% of the screen time, no? GODS, NO!

And it's honestly the same thing, here. Ahsoka was created by this design team, they've spent years with her, this was ultimately the moment for her story to come to a closure...and they chickened out of it. They just write her off - 'she's not part of this story any more, but still alive so we can totally come back to her later' - instead of giving the character any proper ending that would have fit the arc of the season.

Seriously - anyone creative...artists, writers, whatever - KILL YOUR DARLINGS. Words to live by. If you are afraid to do that - cut away 90% of what you worked on and are most proud of - then you'll always be a hack.

So I saw the episode... It was ok up till the part Darth Vader loses... I know you don't see it on screen but that is the only way Anakins apprentice would be able to walk away from that fight.

It's really the biggest thing that annoys me from that episode...so VERY badly...even after repeated viewings and a week has passed, and it just...GAH. **** near kills the series for me.

It's rule NUMBER ONE in any creative process - "don't be afraid to kill your darlings".

It's why 90% of fan productions suck - someone spend X hours on making a new CGI ship, so X percent of the film has to be glamor shots of the model from this angle...from that angle...showing it off. When it's a BACKGROUND ship! Probably mostly obstructed by some actor in the only scene it appears in. But 'actors' are boring (and for fan films - VERY cheap), so if they only cost 10% of the film, they should only take up 10% of the screen time, no? GODS, NO!

And it's honestly the same thing, here. Ahsoka was created by this design team, they've spent years with her, this was ultimately the moment for her story to come to a closure...and they chickened out of it. They just write her off - 'she's not part of this story any more, but still alive so we can totally come back to her later' - instead of giving the character any proper ending that would have fit the arc of the season.

Seriously - anyone creative...artists, writers, whatever - KILL YOUR DARLINGS. Words to live by. If you are afraid to do that - cut away 90% of what you worked on and are most proud of - then you'll always be a hack.

In principal I agree, though I think it would have been a waste in this case. Vader literally said "We need not be adversaries", and Ahsoka literally said to Vader "I won't leave you, not this time." It really is an opportunity to make her stay at Vaders side in season 3 imho.

So I saw the episode... It was ok up till the part Darth Vader loses... I know you don't see it on screen but that is the only way Anakins apprentice would be able to walk away from that fight.

It's really the biggest thing that annoys me from that episode...so VERY badly...even after repeated viewings and a week has passed, and it just...GAH. **** near kills the series for me.

OK....I have to disagree with this. Yes, Vader got the bad end of a round in the fight. It didn't mean he lost. I hate to compare to another show, but has anyone seen the latest season of Daredevil on Netflix? Putting under spoiler, but I don't say too much.

Just because a villain loses a round doesn't mean he's lost the fight.

The way I see it is the explosion blasts the heck out of both Vader and Ashoka. Most likely they are separated in the fight and the whole place could've collapsed a bit. They both are wounded and don't want to risk it further. Most likely they couldn't immediately see each other. They wander away instead of trying to find the other. That's more of a draw.

So perhaps fans of the old classics can content themselves with the simple answer of "the classic is simply the most efficient and effective option in the long run".

It's also worth remembering:

Anakin: regular saber user: loses hand, eventually most limbs, mind.

Luke: also a regular user: loses hand

Qui-Gonn: also regular-style user: gets stabbed

Han: used one ONCE on a Taun-taun 30 years ago: gets stabbed.

Count Dooku: regular saber user, loses hands, gets beheaded.

Ben: regular saber user, just gives up while he's ahead.

Grievous: used only regular sabers, routinely loses hands and stuff.

Bottom line: laser swords are great, but ultimately you're going to lose something and maybe die.

So I saw the episode... It was ok up till the part Darth Vader loses... I know you don't see it on screen but that is the only way Anakins apprentice would be able to walk away from that fight.

It's really the biggest thing that annoys me from that episode...so VERY badly...even after repeated viewings and a week has passed, and it just...GAH. **** near kills the series for me.

It's rule NUMBER ONE in any creative process - "don't be afraid to kill your darlings".

It's why 90% of fan productions suck - someone spend X hours on making a new CGI ship, so X percent of the film has to be glamor shots of the model from this angle...from that angle...showing it off. When it's a BACKGROUND ship! Probably mostly obstructed by some actor in the only scene it appears in. But 'actors' are boring (and for fan films - VERY cheap), so if they only cost 10% of the film, they should only take up 10% of the screen time, no? GODS, NO!

And it's honestly the same thing, here. Ahsoka was created by this design team, they've spent years with her, this was ultimately the moment for her story to come to a closure...and they chickened out of it. They just write her off - 'she's not part of this story any more, but still alive so we can totally come back to her later' - instead of giving the character any proper ending that would have fit the arc of the season.

Seriously - anyone creative...artists, writers, whatever - KILL YOUR DARLINGS. Words to live by. If you are afraid to do that - cut away 90% of what you worked on and are most proud of - then you'll always be a hack.

In principal I agree, though I think it would have been a waste in this case. Vader literally said "We need not be adversaries", and Ahsoka literally said to Vader "I won't leave you, not this time." It really is an opportunity to make her stay at Vaders side in season 3 imho.

If that is where it was going, that would be weird but indeed make the episode work.

However, it isn't. The writers have said the point of the episode was to end Ahsoka's arc - she's out of the series, now. This is the end for her interacting with this Rebel cell. So unless we are also not seeing *Vader* anymore, either (seems unlikely), having her become his apprentice won't be somewhere the story can go...

I remember making a TOD for Xwing vs tie fighter BOP years and years ago.

(nearly 20 years, holy hell).For about half of the 20+ missions the Rebel squadron you were part of were assisting/assisted by the Calimari Cruiser "Maria".

I scripted it to die (basically had it 7km away from rebel start, with no shield and TIE Bombers from Mu Squadron targetting with heavy rockets at 5km range... during one mission, and the big thing on my campaign was the radio chatter.

It had the emotional impact I was intending on.

A red shirt is one thing.

Ensign Shiraz Merlot, who has had character development for 6 episodes, has a girlfriend, is a little witty.

Kill that bastard with a stray shot in a death that lasts 0.5 seconds. No last words, no final request, no glory. Just there goes Merlot.

That's how it's done.

I remember making a TOD for Xwing vs tie fighter BOP years and years ago.

(nearly 20 years, holy hell).For about half of the 20+ missions the Rebel squadron you were part of were assisting/assisted by the Calimari Cruiser "Maria".

I scripted it to die (basically had it 7km away from rebel start, with no shield and TIE Bombers from Mu Squadron targetting with heavy rockets at 5km range... during one mission, and the big thing on my campaign was the radio chatter.

It had the emotional impact I was intending on.

A red shirt is one thing.

Ensign Shiraz Merlot, who has had character development for 6 episodes, has a girlfriend, is a little witty.

Kill that bastard with a stray shot in a death that lasts 0.5 seconds. No last words, no final request, no glory. Just there goes Merlot.

That's how it's done.

So Shiraz Merlot didn't wine about his death? ;-)

Legends is canon with Disney Wars, it is secondary canon. Because Ben is Darth Caedus I can call him Darth Caedus all I like.

Given the amount of times it's been explicitly stated he's not a Sith...

Darth Caedus is Jacen Solo from the old canon. They're completely different characters. They share a gender, parents and force sensitivity and that's about it.

It doesn't matter if he is a Sith or not Ben is Jacen Solo, Jacen Solo is Darth Caedus. I can call him that name all I like, and I will call him that name all I like.

Legends is canon with Disney Wars, it is secondary canon.

Blue 5

No, it's not. There are no levels of canon: this was the purpose of the reset: everything after it is coherent and canonical. They wiped the slate clean save for the six films and Clone Wars. While they're using the old EU as a sourcebook of material none of it is canon until reused in a new canon source.

Yes it is still canon.

John Jackson Miller

I really think it’s a mistake for people to play the canon/not-canon parlor game. What they said when they made the announcement is that the previous material wasn’t being discarded, it would be drawn from – inspirations and ideas would come from it. The planets are the same; the species are the same. You know, the Rebels series uses the same manufacturer of the TIE fighters that was introduced in the Role Playing Games years ago. My book revolves around a strategic compound that I introduced back in KOTOR years ago! The universe is the same.

The thing about “Legends,” and that’s the word on the cover of the previous material: Legends can be true, in part or in whole. They inspire, they are sort of like the King Arthur story – parts of that, little bits of that here and there are true.

James Luceno

“I chose not to really reference too much EU material only because of the setting of the story, but it was still there. It was still there to pick and choose from. I think going forward what may happen is you may see writers writing around some of that older material that’s now classified as Legends – writing around it rather than trying to overwrite it.”

Which is what we have been seeing.

Shelly Shapiro

“Well first of all, we don’t want to just disappear stuff that everybody read and loved – including myself. Legends are things that are often told over generations so they’re not… they change constantly with the telling, so you can’t actually attribute an author to any particular one. Often it wasn’t someone who was actually there. You can go back to any of the legends… they’re pretty sure there was a ‘King Arthur,’ but most of the stories probably did not happen. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t kernels of truth in it.

Shelly Shapiro

The way its described, Legends, literally makes it secondary canon whether they said it or not.

Dave Filoni

“When I see stuff I like I try to figure out how to get it in there. You can’t un-know this stuff; you can’t un-know stories that you’ve read. So when we come across ideas, all of those things are considered. We worked that way on Clone Wars all the time to include what we could… I think we try to keep the heart of things alive, no matter what.”

Pablo Hidalgo

“The word ‘canon’ is so loaded… Some of the decisions that we’re making now help ‘future-proof’ this book, because it was done with the knowledge of what’s coming up in the future; the folks that were making novels in the ’90s didn’t have an opportunity to know that. So that’s a purely functional, production-driven definition of that word. If something as a result is not declared ‘canon,’ don’t let that word be a value base. It doesn’t mean that story is now worthless or meaningless.”

Right now they’re looking at using the basic descriptions of EU characters with different names. Luke’s wife will follow the same template as Shira Brie/Mara Jade. Red hair, Green eyes, attitude etc.

The same with the kids of the big three. […] Jaina will be the inspiration for the Solo daughter, Jacen for the Solo son and Ben for the Skywalker son. Most of the new characters in the new continuity are based on characters from the old continuity. Fans should not expect to see Kyle Katarn, Corran Horn or Cilghal, but characters who are very much like them.

This can not be made clearer, the post [Return of the Jedi] EU launched in ’91 is dead. No story from Outbound flight forward counts. (Which is not true since Dark Empire has been referenced over and over and over) That’s why Bob Iger said they would use the 17,000 character for inspiration for new characters. Shira Brie and Mara Jade are the templates for Luke’s wife/Love interest

So like I said, Legends is secondary canon via how it is treated in regards to the new material.

Fan question

I bring this up because it shows that the story group doesn't interfere with alternate universe material, which the expansions are. You see the opposite when they are approving what will and will not be used in FFG products and Hasbro products, not only that but they also will tweak lore for said approved products.

Blue 5

What I'm doing is strongly insinuating that you do not have insider knowledge on the plot of the eighth Star Wars film and are instead stating baseless speculation as fact.

You have proof of this? Present it. Also you did threaten me with legal actions by bringing up Lawyers working for LFL / Disney. [/Quote]

Blue 5

You seem to be awfully confident of a lot of things you don't have a shred of basis for,

Proof...?

Blue 5

and awfully sure of a lot of things where the only evidence contradicts you.

Proof...?

Blue 5

The explosion at the end of Twilight of the Apprentice physically destroys the ground around it.

Firstly I will point out it doesn't show that in the video I watched. 35 min 0 secs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-I-IGY4O6A

Seconded you still have presented no calculations on how powerful "Supposed" explosion is, you have not presented any material showing what the debris is, if it even is debris, you have presented nothing showing what we are seeing at all, for all we know its a immense release of dark side spirits or energy that doesn't have any conventional effects on its surroundings.

Third, theirs a little problem you are forgetting, Darth Vader is standing right next to her. So unless you are proposing he dies and is cloned, then is grievously injured again causing him to become a cyborg and having to be put back in a life support suit, which I guess could happen since they have made Darth Vader incompetent, then this light show we see doesn't have a natural effect on things, ergo doesn't cause the same effects seen in a "normal" explosion.

Fourth we see her in the cave entrance.

I remember making a TOD for Xwing vs tie fighter BOP years and years ago.

(nearly 20 years, holy hell).For about half of the 20+ missions the Rebel squadron you were part of were assisting/assisted by the Calimari Cruiser "Maria".

I scripted it to die (basically had it 7km away from rebel start, with no shield and TIE Bombers from Mu Squadron targetting with heavy rockets at 5km range... during one mission, and the big thing on my campaign was the radio chatter.

It had the emotional impact I was intending on.

A red shirt is one thing.

Ensign Shiraz Merlot, who has had character development for 6 episodes, has a girlfriend, is a little witty.

Kill that bastard with a stray shot in a death that lasts 0.5 seconds. No last words, no final request, no glory. Just there goes Merlot.

That's how it's done.

Thats how it CAN be done. Not every story has the same method of dealing with things. Even within itself, you can have things like a climactic fight between Obi-wan and Vader, and then half an hour later have Biggs get unceremoniously shot down and never mentioned again.

Reminds me of a scene in Halo: Reach.

One of the members of Noble Team, Kat, dies without any warning what so ever. Just, bam. Needle Rifle shot right through the helmet. No words, no drama, just outright killed.

It was shocking, and I remember it as one of my favorite deaths in media. Though on a related note, Jorge's fairly dramatic death outshines it in sheer impact.

Still. It's relevant.

Firstly.. the phrase 'kill your darlings' isn't about characters, its about plot bunnies as any writing student can tell you. Second Vader is powerful but he is not the invincible juggernaut people make him out to be and he still had the upper hand against anyone he fought with one on one in the episode and it makes perfect sense for him to struggle to kill Ahsoka for whatever reason. Third for the generation of fans who entered the franchise between the end of the PT in 05 and the start of Rebels and TFA last year, Ahsoka is their Luke, the character they identify with the most is what I'm saying particularly for young girls getting in to Star Wars having Vader off her like it was nothing basically sends the same message that all the gatekeeping OT purists have been trying to scream at new fans for nearly two decades now since the PT was announced: "you aren't a valid fan unless you grew up with nothing but the OT and accept that it is by default better then any newer stuff you may like." which you know.. is bull.

Lastly, the intention of the "Legends" label was to establish all the older EU stuff as a sort of Elseworlds/Infinities thing its still valid but its not in the same universe as any of the newer stuff and doesn't directly effect any new stories.

Vader is one of two Sith Lords standing and active. He is about as powerful as you are gonna see in that point in time without pissing off Papa Palpatine himself.

Ahsoka going to exile and the way the season ending is an elegant solution to what we thought was an impossible situation - how could Ahsoka survive the series? WILL AHSOKA SURVIVE THE SERIES?

Seriously, we don't know. I can put forth arguments for both living and dying.

She wasn't in the OT? Needs to die?

She could be in exile or doing something else?

She wasn't imagined in the OT trilogy?

She's an integral part of Anakins history?

Ultimately. We will see her fate one way or t'other.

Killing major characters however be they male or female young or old is perfectly acceptable when done right in this show. I'm not saying burn everyone, just let it be known that being a good guy has it's risks too.

I am also quite ok with mauve shirts being offed as standard.

Without danger and risk, how can there be heroics and adventure?

We know what legends is and I am sure I speak for almost everyone in accepting that definition (except for BKL. Good. Luck. Convincing. Him).

Vader is one of two Sith Lords standing and active. He is about as powerful as you are gonna see in that point in time without pissing off Papa Palpatine himself.

Ahsoka going to exile and the way the season ending is an elegant solution to what we thought was an impossible situation - how could Ahsoka survive the series? WILL AHSOKA SURVIVE THE SERIES?

Seriously, we don't know. I can put forth arguments for both living and dying.

She wasn't in the OT? Needs to die?

She could be in exile or doing something else?

She wasn't imagined in the OT trilogy?

She's an integral part of Anakins history?

Ultimately. We will see her fate one way or t'other.

Killing major characters however be they male or female young or old is perfectly acceptable when done right in this show. I'm not saying burn everyone, just let it be known that being a good guy has it's risks too.

I am also quite ok with mauve shirts being offed as standard.

Without danger and risk, how can there be heroics and adventure?

We know what legends is and I am sure I speak for almost everyone in accepting that definition (except for BKL. Good. Luck. Convincing. Him).

Well most of that rant was directed towards those who claimed that Ahsoka not not being murdered by Vader on screen ruined the episode (or more laughably the entire series). I am very happy with the ambiguity of the ending I think they handled it in the best possible way

I wouldn't call the ending ambiguous. I can't. To me it was a blast seperating them, Vader going one way and Ahsoka going into the temple.

Ambiguous would have been not seeing her at the end.

I wouldn't call the ending ambiguous. I can't. To me it was a blast seperating them, Vader going one way and Ahsoka going into the temple.

Ambiguous would have been not seeing her at the end.

Yeah, leaving a proffessed non-Jedi in a Sith temple just seems like a bad idea. Spending a significant amount of time in a Sith Temple is just a bad idea...

Yeah, leaving a proffessed non-Jedi in a Sith temple just seems like a bad idea. Spending a significant amount of time in a Sith Temple is just a bad idea...

Everything is all fun and games until someone loses a hand...

Yeah, leaving a proffessed non-Jedi in a Sith temple just seems like a bad idea. Spending a significant amount of time in a Sith Temple is just a bad idea...

Everything is all fun and games until someone loses a hand...

Then it's hilarious!

Yeah, leaving a proffessed non-Jedi in a Sith temple just seems like a bad idea. Spending a significant amount of time in a Sith Temple is just a bad idea...

Everything is all fun and games until someone loses a hand...

Or you know, their EYES.

Watched it again and my main take away (apart from Flying Monkeys) was that it went from:

Ezra; Kanan, TRUST me, I believe in him

To

Ezra: Kanan, TRUST me, that's a pot hole and you will trip up.

Glad trusting Ezra's gut only left Kanan blind...

Watched it again and my main take away (apart from Flying Monkeys) was that it went from:

Ezra; Kanan, TRUST me, I believe in him

To

Ezra: Kanan, TRUST me, that's a pot hole and you will trip up.

Glad trusting Ezra's gut only left Kanan blind...

Not mine, but relevant:

Watched it again and my main take away (apart from Flying Monkeys) was that it went from:

Ezra; Kanan, TRUST me, I believe in him

To

Ezra: Kanan, TRUST me, that's a pot hole and you will trip up.

Glad trusting Ezra's gut only left Kanan blind...

Not mine, but relevant:

That's Chopper alright.