I dunno guys. I really dislike the whole evil empire just because the leader is evil thing. To me it seems overly childish. Morality isn't even shades of grey, it's infinite colour.

The Empire was evil because the Empire was Evil. Sure some people in it may not of been, but the group as a whole was. Why? Because that's what George Lucas said.

Star Wars was/is a space opera and one of the hallmarks of that always has been black and white morality. The good guys are Good, the bad guys are Evil, and that's just how it is.

Take the opening crawl of A New Hope...

"It is a period of civil war. Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire."

It says it right there, the Empire is evil, this is not actually open for debate. While some may prefer a more nuanced approach or villain, that is not what you got with Star Wars.

In the vein of rebels, How many people have been killed by stormtroopers on screen as opposed to stormtroopers killed by the rebels on screen?

It is fiction, but in the context of this game at least there is narrative, our own headcanon, characters etc.

This will ideally be my last post derailing this...

Because it's Fiction, that means RL doesn't apply. As I said it's Space Opera and that means like old fashioned westerns, it's very much black and white. If that's not something you like that's fine. But that does actually change how the story was set up in the first place.

One of the biggest issues with the EU was how it kept trying to add shades into what is supposed to be black and white. Like that utter nonsense about Palp actually doing it to get ready for the Vong invasion. That is a prime example of the absolute garbage that the EU became and Imperial fandom at it's worse. Because it completely ignores what happened in Canon , namely that Palp did what he did because he was evil and for no other reason.

But as far as this game goes, no there is no narrative or characters really. You can superimpose one over the top, but the fact is those pilots are no more characters than a pawn or knight is in chest. They are playing pieces with varying stats and art work.

Also the very notion of headcanon is a bit of an oxymoron. Canon by its very nature either applies to everyone or not at all.

In the vein of rebels, How many people have been killed by stormtroopers on screen as opposed to stormtroopers killed by the rebels on screen?

Considering we don't know how many stormtroopers actually get killed?

But the movies were the same. Consider how many troopers get killed in all 3 movies vs the number of rebels. That however is because the Stormtroopers are mooks and mooks are never actually effective at pretty much anything.

But if we want to talk about how many people at threatened by them and cower in fear of them... I'd say the Empire is way ahead on that score.

In the vein of rebels, How many people have been killed by stormtroopers on screen as opposed to stormtroopers killed by the rebels on screen?

Considering we don't know how many stormtroopers actually get killed?

But the movies were the same. Consider how many troopers get killed in all 3 movies vs the number of rebels. That however is because the Stormtroopers are mooks and mooks are never actually effective at pretty much anything.

But if we want to talk about how many people at threatened by them and cower in fear of them... I'd say the Empire is way ahead on that score.

I would say a blast hit means death but then you have Sabine. I just find it odd that Ezra is the only that uses a stun blaster. Considering they run away or ambush a lot a stun would be just as effective as killing.

Aight, I gotta head out but really want to discuss this in depth later. Probably in a new thread as it's derailing this one a bit.

It is fiction, but in the context of this game at least there is narrative, our own headcanon, characters etc.

I know most people hate talking about this kind of stuff, but I would enjoy it if it was in the off-topic section.

It is fiction, but in the context of this game at least there is narrative, our own headcanon, characters etc.

This will ideally be my last post derailing this...

Because it's Fiction, that means RL doesn't apply. As I said it's Space Opera and that means like old fashioned westerns, it's very much black and white. If that's not something you like that's fine. But that does actually change how the story was set up in the first place.

One of the biggest issues with the EU was how it kept trying to add shades into what is supposed to be black and white. Like that utter nonsense about Palp actually doing it to get ready for the Vong invasion. That is a prime example of the absolute garbage that the EU became and Imperial fandom at it's worse. Because it completely ignores what happened in Canon , namely that Palp did what he did because he was evil and for no other reason.

But as far as this game goes, no there is no narrative or characters really. You can superimpose one over the top, but the fact is those pilots are no more characters than a pawn or knight is in chest. They are playing pieces with varying stats and art work.

Also the very notion of headcanon is a bit of an oxymoron. Canon by its very nature either applies to everyone or not at all.

I disagree to a certain extent. Real life is important because it gives the story and characters context. Without context there is no story. "There was a boy who was a good guy, he killed some bad guys. The end." Is not a compelling story for some people. Who was the boy? What made him good? Why were the bad guys bad?". Real life gives us a gauge to compare the actions and words presented to us so we can understand and enjoy the story.

SW as a single trilogy can do the light vs dark with no wiggle room. But SW as a living franchise needs more room to grow (especially in 2016+) to keep it interesting as some parts of the EU show with varying degrees of success (YMMV). There are only so many superweapons made by one dimensional villians our attractive plucky heroes can blow up before movie/merch/book sales start to go down.

Real life is important because it gives the story and characters context. Without context there is no story.

But that's not actually true. There is a story, it may not be a good one, it may be shallow or incomplete. But it is still a story.

Is not a compelling story for some people.

Sure, but that just makes it a bad story, it doesn't make invalid.

But SW as a living franchise needs more room to grow (especially in 2016+) to keep it interesting as some parts of the EU show with varying degrees of success (YMMV).

That's debatable and subjective. I mean TFA was every bit as black and white as ANH was. There wasn't a lot of gray in the First Order. Some people may prefer more nuances to their villains, some prefer black and white. You do not need nuances to make a good story though, Star Wars proves that point qutie well in fact.

One last point or perhaps rant is more correct... the EU palpy was trying to save the galaxy from the Vong theory is the biggest crock of idiotic and asinine bullpucky I've ever seen. It is such a prime example of what went wrong with the EU, that it should be the poster child for the later years of it.

The very idea that someone would come up with this brainsick nonsense just proves how little care LFL actually used when putting out books. Because no star wars fan in their right mind would ever of allowed something that so completely spit in the face of what the OT was about.

*Semi-Rant* I get some people like the Empire, they like the aesthetics and such, but for anyone to try and make the claim that the Emperor wasn't evil and was really trying to put the Galaxy in a place where it could defend itself is such blatant romanticism and glorification that the person who do that, should never be allowed to touch a keyboard again.

/end rant

The point is... The Empire is Evil because in this narrative it was declared evil, it is in terms of the Star Wars universe ex-cathedra. It quite simply isn't something that is actually up for debate the Empire and by extension the Emperor is evil, pure and simple.

Making sympathetic villains like Thawn is fine, and in this case good because it separated him from the OT Empire. But for anyone to try and claim that the Empire was anything but evil at it's core is simply ignoring the basic premise of the story.

Edit: and a theme I will point out that's being continued in the new Disney canon. Aftermath made it quite clear that while there maybe a few individuals who are interested in what's best for the Galaxy, the Empire at it's core is not.

The latest clip from the next rebels episode, man I can't believe Cham just dissed chopper like that! Dude has just gone wwwwaaaayyyy down in my opinion

I did however find the revelation that Chopper's been with Hera since she was a little kid very interesting.

Thrawn was hardly sympathetic in his first appearance.

@VanorDM

Well just to clear I do agree that the Empire/Emperor is evil, no argument from me there. When I was talking about context and story the story being good* was implied, but it was my fault for not being not being more explicit.

I wrote a long detailed response to everything you said about the old EU and TFA, but realized this isn't the best place for it so I might make a post in the off topic forum later. I do enjoy reading your responses though.

ON TOPIC:

Has anyone heard/seen anything about Kanan/Ezra existing in the SW universe outside of Rebels? It's probably been touched on before, but is a happy ending possible for the show if in fact Luke is "the last of the Jedi"?

There is no way every Imperial soldier or officer was evil but the organization as a whole definitely was. You can argue that Palpatine being evil doesn't make it evil but Palpatine was far from from the only evil Imperial.

And the Palpatine was preparing the galaxy for an impending attack idea is insane or Palpatine was an idiot. Most of the things he did which angered the population enough for the rebellion to gain the strength it had were of little or no help in such a case, and revealing the Death Star's power would be utterly moronic. If the Death Star was being planned as a weapon against an impending invasion the Empire would have built it, tested on some dead rock, then hidden it away until the invaders arrived so they would have no idea what hit them when it was deployed.

Thrawn was hardly sympathetic in his first appearance.

EU has lived too long, even good things that were born in it, like Thrawn when he first appeared, has been turned into sad caricatures of themselves.

Thrawn was hardly sympathetic in his first appearance.

Yes! He was a villain, goddamit, a bad guy!

EU has lived too long, even good things that were born in it, like Thrawn when he first appeared, has been turned into sad caricatures of themselves.

That sums up most of the EU tbh. Lots of good ideas stretched and crammed together until they are mess... same basic issue as most comic universes.

Thrawn was a good idea. The various bounty hunter backstories contained some good ideas. Boba Fett's survival. Hell even the vong has a few passable ideas at their core (that mysterious totally alien menace from the uncharted regions... oooooh..). But all fell appart when they were looked at too closely, and constantly retrod. Frequently by authors of comparatively sub standard skill (who all want their character to be the greatest X and the most amazing Y in the galaxy), but still treated with equal reverence as a source.

Edit: I genuinely hoped that the Disney whiping the slate clean will give the universe a chance to be rebuilt a little more carefully..... but then the glut of new media since they did so doesnt fill me with confidence, just because of its sheer volume.

Thrawn was hardly sympathetic in his first appearance.

Yes! He was a villain, goddamit, a bad guy!

EU has lived too long, even good things that were born in it, like Thrawn when he first appeared, has been turned into sad caricatures of themselves.

That sums up most of the EU tbh. Lots of good ideas stretched and crammed together until they are mess... same basic issue as most comic universes.

Thrawn was a good idea. The various bounty hunter backstories contained some good ideas. Boba Fett's survival. Hell even the vong has a few passable ideas at their core (that mysterious totally alien menace from the uncharted regions... oooooh..). But all fell appart when they were looked at too closely, and constantly retrod. Frequently by authors of comparatively sub standard skill (who all want their character to be the greatest X and the most amazing Y in the galaxy), but still treated with equal reverence as a source.

Edit: I genuinely hoped that the Disney whiping the slate clean will give the universe a chance to be rebuilt a little more carefully..... but then the glut of new media since they did so doesnt fill me with confidence, just because of its sheer volume.

Really one of the biggest problems with the EU was a significant lack of interesting antagonists. I absolutely love Thrawn, but I think one of the biggest reasons Thrawn is so celebrated is that the other bad guys were so utterly forgettable.

Besides Thrawn the most recognizable EU bad guy is the Clone Emperor, whose infamy mostly stems from how awful most people considered that comic book run.

Every other major Imperial officer* post ROTJ followed this formula: take an ugly human add some impotent and crippling anger issues and sprinkle some left over super-weapon plot. How many times can you read that story before getting bored?

No wonder they thought they needed the Vong.

Jacen's fall to the dark side had so much potential, but utterly fell off the rails halfway through Legacy. Other than that I think the most interesting EU bad guys were Bane and Malgus, but I don't think they count since they existed in a different timeline.

I'm really hoping Disney has at least a rough, but coherent continuity mapped out for the next decade like they have with the Marvel Universe.

*I don't think Daala was made intentionally ugly if I remember right.

ON TOPIC:

Has anyone heard/seen anything about Kanan/Ezra existing in the SW universe outside of Rebels? It's probably been touched on before, but is a happy ending possible for the show if in fact Luke is "the last of the Jedi"?

I think they are going to respect Filoni, and not use the Rebels characters elsewhere until Rebels is done. Let them tell their story without either spoiling things or stepping on Filoni's toes.

As for the Yoda quote, not exactly going to take it as bible truth.

I mean, there's a Kanan comic. But while it technically takes place during Rebels, those are mostly just as bookends, and the majority of the comic is flashbacks to Kanan as a padawan.

That said, it's also obvious that the comic writers are working extremely closely with the show writers. As evidenced by that Mandalorian showing up in the show, and Kanan talking about how he knew him from the Clone Wars, and that scene from the Clone Wars being shown in the comic issue that came out THAT SAME WEEK.

On the topic of the tonight's eposode, was Hera's accent reversion really necessary? That was the only thing I actually disliked about the episode next to Cham being an absolute jerk.

Anyways, maybe now since they have a carrier Phoenix Squadron will stop dropping like flies. They've lost so many fighters that, from what I could see, they only occupied 1 of the 4 hangars.

Oh and yay for mouse droids and tie racks!

I mean, there's a Kanan comic. But while it technically takes place during Rebels, those are mostly just as bookends, and the majority of the comic is flashbacks to Kanan as a padawan.

That said, it's also obvious that the comic writers are working extremely closely with the show writers. As evidenced by that Mandalorian showing up in the show, and Kanan talking about how he knew him from the Clone Wars, and that scene from the Clone Wars being shown in the comic issue that came out THAT SAME WEEK.

That was a minor miracle of scheduling. I doubt by the time Marvel was getting the issue, that Disney XD had the schedule for the second half planned out.

Enjoyed the episode, though I would've loved for Cham make a mention of liking Kanan at the end. Got to keep up those subtle hints at the relationship. And, apparently a source for the Bomber title. Liked seeing the bombers fight at the end.

On the topic of the tonight's eposode, was Hera's accent reversion really necessary? That was the only thing I actually disliked about the episode next to Cham being an absolute jerk.

Anyways, maybe now since they have a carrier Phoenix Squadron will stop dropping like flies. They've lost so many fighters that, from what I could see, they only occupied 1 of the 4 hangars.

Oh and yay for mouse droids and tie racks!

As for Phoenix Squadron, a carrier will help get fighters serviced and repaired quicker. The reason there have been high casualties is because they have been fielding fewer fighters to provide cover, leading to heavier odds in surviving a battle. The carrier will allow Phoenix squadron to bring more capable craft and a place for damaged craft to land so that more pilots survive a hit-n-run mission.

I'm just stoked about the Quasar-Fire being in Rebels! Holy CRAP that is cool. Seriously could and should be a new command ship. Curious however, that it uses the exact same bridge setup as the ARGHKITTENS class Cruiser.

BUT WHAT WAS EVEN COOLER

WAS SEEING THE F***ING TIE SHUTTLE

I'm just stoked about the Quasar-Fire being in Rebels! Holy CRAP that is cool. Seriously could and should be a new command ship. Curious however, that it uses the exact same bridge setup as the ARGHKITTENS class Cruiser.

BUT WHAT WAS EVEN COOLER

WAS SEEING THE F***ING TIE SHUTTLE

Might have just been a jurry rigged stolen bomber.

all the behind the scenes stuff refers to it specifically as a bomber.

Has anyone heard/seen anything about Kanan/Ezra existing in the SW universe outside of Rebels? It's probably been touched on before, but is a happy ending possible for the show if in fact Luke is "the last of the Jedi"?

Luke is a weapon that Yoda and Obi-Wan sharpened and pointed at Vader and the Emperor, and telling him that he is "The last of the Jedi" is just the final touch of the honing stone: "If you don't succeed in this, then the universe is destroyed, and the Jedi will never be able to rise again."

In other words, they were lying to him, and doing so for the same reason they lied to him earlier in the series: to make him a better weapon, to make him more capable of destroying the Sith duo in charge of the Empire. Why not tell him Vader was Anakin Skywalker? Because he might have done something stupid.

This was a farmboy who'd never known his real father, who knows WHAT he would have done if Obi-Wan had said, "Oh, btdubs, your father is still alive, he doesn't know he has a son either, but he's the big bad evil guy's chief henchman, so uh... kill him for us? Pretty please?"

Now, Obi and Yoda don't have to be HAPPY about the choices they made with Luke, or that they are evil for making those choices and lying to him, because they were trying to defeat the Sith and recreate the Jedi: valid goals.

But knowing what we know about the canonical universe, there ARE other Jedi in it (it's a bit too big for even Order 66 to have killed them ALL!), and therefore Luke was lied to.

And I liked this week's episode, very much so. Hera's accent was adorable. Was her father a character from the Clone Wars cartoon? The plan felt very much again like an RPG adventure.

Sometimes I suspect that all we're watching is the campaign log of someone's old Star Wars WEG adventures.

On the topic of the tonight's eposode, was Hera's accent reversion really necessary? That was the only thing I actually disliked about the episode next to Cham being an absolute jerk.

Anyways, maybe now since they have a carrier Phoenix Squadron will stop dropping like flies. They've lost so many fighters that, from what I could see, they only occupied 1 of the 4 hangars.

Oh and yay for mouse droids and tie racks!

Of course it was not necessary you sons of silly people! Everyone knows that French is zee most outrageous accent in the galaxy; zis iz why we uze it on Rryloth - it pizzes off the English Empire-types tute-suite! Hoh hoh!

"Lousy Imps!"

They totally now own an additional bomber that they can add to their collection of a TIE Fighter and TAP that they've stolen. And now, they have someplace to keep them!

The carrier was everything I hoped it would be. Tons of fighter bay space. Turrets all over the thing. Beautiful.

That said, I'm really not sure how this is supposed to reduce Phoenix Squadron casualties. I realize they had one get shot down at the start of the episode while trying to dock because it's hyperdrive got damaged, but is that really supposed to be, like, this super common occurrence that having a carrier is going to solve all their problems? Primarily that they suck at flying.

Also, if it only takes, like, 8 people to capture an entire capital ship, shouldn't they do that a lot more?

Might have just been a jurry rigged stolen bomber.

all the behind the scenes stuff refers to it specifically as a bomber.

Really though, that's all a TIE Shuttle is, a refitted Bomber.

Either way, the TIE Bomber is ROOMY AS ****!!

Also, Torpedoes out the Bomb Chute? Wtf?

I'm not sure if this is a new development, but apparently torpedoes are now balls of energy instead of physical warheads. Just like in Star Trek. Maybe it was always this way in the movies, and they just moved to fast for me to notice.

Yeah Hera's father was the leader of the resistance against the CIS occupation of Ryloth during the Clone Wars. The final arc of Season One focused n the Republic liberation of the planet and a later Season three episode flashbacked to the occupation. Hera showed up as well though just briefly and she wasn't named and Numa played a key role in an episode of the Liberation arc.

And I don't know about decreasing causalities directly but I imagine a proper carrier would make rapid scrambles and recoveries easier and repair work maybe.

I'm still hoping for some other ships being made canon by the series like the Marauders, DP20s, Strike class Cruisers and the Mark I Assault Frigates