I get some people for different reasons like the Empire and so like to look at it from a different PoV, but that doesn't change that the Empire is a tyrannical dictatorship and the rebels are trying to restore rule by the people.

I encounter civilians like you all the time. You believe the Empire is continually plotting to do harm. Let me tell you, your view of the Empire is far too dramatic. The Empire is a government. It keeps billions of beings fed and clothed. Day after day, year after year, on thousands of worlds, people live their lives under Imperial rule without seeing a stormtrooper or hearing a TIE fighter scream overhead.

Would America be evil if Bush/Obama/Whoever is in power at the given time could force lightning?

Yes, this is being deliberately inflammatory...

That Jedi throw leapfrog through the blast doors was pretty sweet.
It's nice that Ezra an Kanan are working off of each other.

Hey guys, I don't want to be one of those advertisment guys, but I started a topic about the Gravity Falls finale, and no one ever reads the Off-Topic Forums.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/202888-gravity-falls-finale/

I do. I still want an answer to the above question though.

Say during the 2001-2008 war on terror. Invesions of Afghanistan and Iraq, and the Patriot act, with civil liberties decreasing, monitoring increasing.

If George W. Bush could force lightning would that have made America the evil empire?

Does it take arbitrary evil monologues?

Not in the least. Unless he went around frying Al Gore or Ron Paul for having the audacity to run against him.

I do. I still want an answer to the above question though.

Say during the 2001-2008 war on terror. Invesions of Afghanistan and Iraq, and the Patriot act, with civil liberties decreasing, monitoring increasing.

If George W. Bush could force lightning would that have made America the evil empire?

Does it take arbitrary evil monologues?

The problem with real life, is somtimes things that are evil, can consist of good people. there are millions (literally) of good people in bad countries, is the USA one of them? sure. But In my Eyes, only one Nation can be truly good, one ruled by my creator. (please don't excommunicate me, Just answering the question.)

No. You gave a good answer.

That's WHY I like playing Empire.

You can't have an empire of chaotic evil dicks. It doesn't work. It's not feasible. Good people work for a living, and idealistically even join the factions military.

Was Darth Vaders wingman a ****? Maybe not. He had a kid, who was a tractor beam operator 10 years later.

I do. I still want an answer to the above question though.

Say during the 2001-2008 war on terror. Invesions of Afghanistan and Iraq, and the Patriot act, with civil liberties decreasing, monitoring increasing.

If George W. Bush could force lightning would that have made America the evil empire?

Does it take arbitrary evil monologues?

I hear Clinton could shoot lightning. Not out of his hands though. Poor Monica...

Seriously though, there are enough people around the world who'd say America's evil to make this question… troublesome, perhaps. Me, I don't trust any government. Anyone who wants to be a politician is inherently untrustworthy in my view. And I'd certainly say that there are people in government right now in both the UK and the US who are... morally challenged. But that doesn't make America or the UK evil.

Likewise, the Empire wasn't evil. Nor was it good. Some people within it were both, but most of them were just people. Same with the Rebellion. Not evil, not good. Just people doing a thing, some because they fervently believed it was best for the galaxy, some for revenge, some just because it was something they could do to use their training while not serving a regime they saw as morally challenged.

If you haven't, I would highly recommend that everyone read the Star Wars novel Lost Stars . It's the best – okay, only really – canon treatment of people within the Empire. The focus is on two childhood friends who go through the Academy together and whose paths diverge drastically after Alderaan. One becomes disillusioned with the Empire, leaves, drifts and eventually drifts into the Rebellion, with the third motivation from the list above. The other stays within the Empire, rises through the ranks, but never, ever believes it to be a force for good again. It's interesting and nuanced. More interesting though is their classmate from Alderaan, who becomes the most fervently pro-Imperial of all of them after the destruction of his planet. Not for his own safety, but because he genuinely believes Tarkin did the right thing .

My point here is the same one I was making ages ago, which is that I have to disagree with VanorDM's view that Rebels=good, Empire=bad, and see the many, many shades of grey. That is NOT, however, the same as saying that VanorDM is wrong, because s/he isn't – they see it one way, I see it another, and that is fine . What's kept me away from this thread for the past few days is the people who've been adamant that there is only one right answer, because there really, really, really isn't.

Also. I believe the Conservative Party (UK) are Evil. I am from the UK. Not everyone will agree with me. Also fine.

It was a deliberately inflammatory and troubling question to make a point. So I do apologize if I offended anyone.

I hate the always chaotic evil fallacy, It doesn't even work for 40K Chaos for nurgles sake.

Also. I believe the Conservative Party (UK) are Evil. I am from the UK. Not everyone will agree with me. Also fine.

It was a deliberately inflammatory and troubling question to make a point. So I do apologize if I offended anyone.

I hate the always chaotic evil fallacy, It doesn't even work for 40K Chaos for nurgles sake.

As a strongly left-leaning person of non-traditional gender and sexual preference with a partner who's an EU citizen (ie, we are everything they hate), and with friends and family who have suffered massively under the Conservative government's assault on all forms of social security, I would agree that they have done things that can only be classed as evil. And there are at least two members of the cabinet who I think are genuinely amoral and simply don't care who gets hurt as a result of their actions as long as they are fulfilling their ideological agenda. But I don't think that makes the entire government, and certainly not the whole Conservative party, evil. I appreciate your perspective though and wouldn't try to talk you out of it.

I won't get into the 40K thing, because I work for Games Workshop, so it would be impolitic.

Fair enough.

Surprisingly I wasn't dissing 40K. Rather making the point that actually, even CHAOS isn't "all chaotic evil". Even so, yes, not everyone of the conservative party is evil.

The conservative party - as a party is evil. This doesn't mean the UK is evil.

Like wise not every republican, the republicans as a party are and if the US was run by republicans.

Likewise (and this is kinda my point) The dark side isn't - it's a means to an end, Dark Side users often are but are not exclusively (See TOR) , the Empire isn't.

Can we please keep RL politics out of this thread? It never goes anywhere good. I don't want to start reporting people, but I will if I see another "Party I don't like = Evil" post.

Likewise (and this is kinda my point) The dark side isn't - it's a means to an end, Dark Side users often are but are not exclusively (See TOR) , the Empire isn't.

Per TOR yes they actually are. If you are a dark side character it is because you constantly and consistently make evil choices, or at least what the writers consider to be evil.

You can be a light side Imperial in TOR, but that's something different.

Edit: I've played two Sith characters in SWTOR and I found it interesting that my Sith Warrior ended up being Light Side 2 by the end. Because I always chose an answer based on what I thought was best for the Sith Empire, rather than what was LS vs DS.

For my Sith Assassin, who was DS 5 I've found it's actually hard to keep it there, without making decisions that seem quite often completely contrary to what's actually best for that character.

Can we please keep RL politics out of this thread? It never goes anywhere good. I don't want to start reporting people, but I will if I see another "Party I don't like = Evil" post.

Likewise (and this is kinda my point) The dark side isn't - it's a means to an end, Dark Side users often are but are not exclusively (See TOR) , the Empire isn't.

Per TOR yes they actually are. If you are a dark side character it is because you constantly and consistently make evil choices, or at least what the writers consider to be evil.

You can be a light side Imperial in TOR, but that's something different.

Edit: I've played two Sith characters in SWTOR and I found it interesting that my Sith Warrior ended up being Light Side 2 by the end. Because I always chose an answer based on what I thought was best for the Sith Empire, rather than what was LS vs DS.

For my Sith Assassin, who was DS 5 I've found it's actually hard to keep it there, without making decisions that seem quite often completely contrary to what's actually best for that character.

That is a general problem with the Bioware style of portraying morality in RPGs. I rarely play any of those games as something other than 'good'.

That is a general problem with the Bioware style of portraying morality in RPGs. I rarely play any of those games as something other than 'good'.

True, and really better suited to a discussion on the Off Topic form.

Ok. I'll try to keep it as in universe as I possibly can. Though I will say "This is how Liberty dies, with thunderous applause".

Was the republic evil? It was inherently corrupt bureaucratic, slow to act...

The point is that the whole evil empire thing is total tosh.

I do. I still want an answer to the above question though.

Say during the 2001-2008 war on terror. Invesions of Afghanistan and Iraq, and the Patriot act, with civil liberties decreasing, monitoring increasing.

If George W. Bush could force lightning would that have made America the evil empire?

Does it take arbitrary evil monologues?

As much as I might join this conversation in a face to face setting I'd prefer not to have the Rebels thread locked due to politics.

There is a Off-Topic sub-forum that, unless it gets nasty, may be a prefect place for this.

Was the republic evil? It was inherently corrupt bureaucratic, slow to act...

It suffered the same issue all large governments does. Large bureaucracies are inherently inefficient and slow to act. But it was at least trying to do what was best for the Republic as a whole.

The point is that the whole evil empire thing is total tosh.

If you mean the whole empire was evil is tosh... I'd agree. It's no different than the german troops in WWII. But if you're saying the Empire itself was not evil... Then you're wrong, Lucas himself called it the Evil Empire, it was at it's core evil and corrupt. Palpatine wasn't interested in making the Galaxy better, he simply wanted ultimate power and both would and did do anything required to get there.

Since he controlled the Empire, and he was completely evil, that makes the Empire evil, even if the bulk of the people in it weren't evil themselves.

Was the republic evil? It was inherently corrupt bureaucratic, slow to act...

It suffered the same issue all large governments does. Large bureaucracies are inherently inefficient and slow to act. But it was at least trying to do what was best for the Republic as a whole.

The point is that the whole evil empire thing is total tosh.

If you mean the whole empire was evil is tosh... I'd agree. It's no different than the german troops in WWII. But if you're saying the Empire itself was not evil... Then you're wrong, Lucas himself called it the Evil Empire, it was at it's core evil and corrupt. Palpatine wasn't interested in making the Galaxy better, he simply wanted ultimate power and both would and did do anything required to get there.

Since he controlled the Empire, and he was completely evil, that makes the Empire evil, even if the bulk of the people in it weren't evil themselves.

And that leads to the final logical question.

Why?

I have to point out that at no point to my knowledge do we see Palpatines endgame, there are some suspicions and theories that he was preparing the galaxy for something else.

Yeah, sure. in context to the OT yes, evil Empire, Rebels good. But out of context - what are they rebelling against? Taxes? having to drink Blue Milk? Did the Emperor BAN TACOS? IS that it Luke? Tacos? 600,000 men and women died on the Death Star For Tacos??? ok, fair enough. If people want to justify dark matter, sound in space, etc etc. Then yes, political justification could do with it too. The republic had not only fell, it had failed . The Empire was borne from the ashes. Until 15 years later, it even still had a senate. That means that EVERY SINGLE PETTY STOMPING you see the Empire dish on Civvies in Rebels was accountable to someone . Not necessarily the Empire either.

Yeah, it was corrupt. Yeah so was the Republic. I see no difference there.

Can we just toss the whole "Palpatine had a completely non-evil endgame" idea into the trash where it belongs. There is benefits to trying to humanize parts of the Empire. But, once you go so far as to say that the Empire on the greater scale isn't evil, you have pretty much lost the core of what Star Wars is.

It is right up there with Thrawn and Boba Fett are actually the paragons of virtue that the main characters should strive for.

In an ideal world I'd throw Good vs evil duology (sp) into the trash right there with it. Yeah I get it, in context of the movies it's good vs evil, protagonist vs antagonist, but really that can be played with. In the old pre disney EU Palpatine was shown as a complete psychopath growing up if I recall, possibly also a product of his family. A lot of that needs further review.

What if there was this perfect knight. This complete expy of Lancelot Du Lac in Star Wars form. A perfect warrior, no, a Hero. A savior.

What if he/she fought terrorists.

What if those terrorists were the Rebels?

I dunno guys. I really dislike the whole evil empire just because the leader is evil thing. To me it seems overly childish. Morality isn't even shades of grey, it's infinite colour.

Ok. I'll try to keep it as in universe as I possibly can. Though I will say "This is how Liberty dies, with thunderous applause".

Was the republic evil? It was inherently corrupt bureaucratic, slow to act...

The point is that the whole evil empire thing is total tosh.

Evil? No, not at least compared to the Empire. That being said it was a/the superpower and everything you said about it is true. Instead of a standing army, the Republic engaged in economic warfare which causes less of knee-jerk reaction, but is still pretty nefarious. The worst part about the Republic was their relationship with the old Jedi order an organization that was evil.

Why?

I have to point out that at no point to my knowledge do we see Palpatines endgame, there are some suspicions and theories that he was preparing the galaxy for something else.

Yeah, sure. in context to the OT yes, evil Empire, Rebels good. But out of context - what are they rebelling against? Taxes? having to drink Blue Milk? Did the Emperor BAN TACOS? IS that it Luke? Tacos? 600,000 men and women died on the Death Star For Tacos??? ok, fair enough. If people want to justify dark matter, sound in space, etc etc. Then yes, political justification could do with it too. The republic had not only fell, it had failed . The Empire was borne from the ashes. Until 15 years later, it even still had a senate. That means that EVERY SINGLE PETTY STOMPING you see the Empire dish on Civvies in Rebels was accountable to someone . Not necessarily the Empire either.

Yeah, it was corrupt. Yeah so was the Republic. I see no difference there.

Intent, actions and scope were the main differences between the Republic and the Empire. The Republic was set up as benign government to serve the people, individuals within the system were corrupt and over time aspects of the system became corrupt. The Empire was set up so its people served one man who was corrupt. The Empire waged physical, economic and psychological war on everyone including its own people on a scale the Republic couldn't hope to achieve.

The Imperial Senate was a puppet government Palpatine set up to A) Help placate the galaxy until the Death Star was complete and B) Keep tabs on his political enemies. It held no actual power or accountability.

Even accounting for the EU palpy was trying to save the galaxy from the Vong theory, most of his actions (ie Alderaan) are still evil, and unnecessarily evil. Even if that was part of master plan to save the rest of the galaxy necessary evil is still evil.

*Edited some spelling errors.

I have to point out that at no point to my knowledge do we see Palpatines endgame, there are some suspicions and theories that he was preparing the galaxy for something else.

That's BS and everyone knows it. The Prequels made it quite clear one of his major goals was to destroy the Jedi.

Lucas has made it qutie clear in the past that the Dark side is Evil, there's no gray there. The Emperor was wholly committed to the dark side so he too was pure evil.

Yeah, it was corrupt. Yeah so was the Republic. I see no difference there.

You either aren't looking or have put blinders on. The republic had issues with corruption, but keep in mind it was Palp who went on the most about how corrupt it was...

But the Republic never built a weapon that could destroy a whole planet, committed genocide or enslaved whole races.

The republic didn't fail, it was killed by Palpatine. He quite carefully arranged events with the sole purpose of making himself the new Sith Emperor. At the end of RotS the Emperor had complete power and the senate had none. So it was him and him alone who was responsible for what the Empire did.

This is fiction, though. Once you lose the whole good vs evil, you lose the core of Star Wars. Yes, you can play around in that core. Rebels has done it. But you can't really throw it out and remain Star Wars.

Aight, I gotta head out but really want to discuss this in depth later. Probably in a new thread as it's derailing this one a bit.

It is fiction, but in the context of this game at least there is narrative, our own headcanon, characters etc.