No there is not. He makes a clear distinction between Alderaan and a military target. He then asks specifically for the location of the rebel base. If Alderaan was a military target then there is no logical reason for him to make that distinction.

Occam's Razor. Your theory assumes Tarkin considered Alderaan a military target, then assumes that his distinction between Alderaan and a military target is meaningless before assuming that the reason he didn't claim Alderaan was a military target verbally is he didn't feel like debating the point despite him defending Alderaan as a military target being the only way to communicate the idea it is a military target to the audience. Finally you assume he makes the distinction between Alderaan and a military target to avoid being sent to an empty system despite him stating specifically what location he wants a couple of sentences later.

My theory assumes that his distinction between Alderaan and a military target means he did not consider Alderaan a military target. Guess which idea has fewer assumptions.

There's less assumptions here then you would think.

-Alderaan was a MAJOR supporter of the rebellion in logistics and leadership and arguably actual war material .

-Alderaan's government at the highest level was complicit in actively conspiring against and trying to overthrow the Empire.

-The Empire knew of Alderaan was a haven of Rebel activity and Bail Organa had long been on Palpatine's hit list from the Republic Senate days.

Supplying support and infrastructure to an armed group of people trying to destroy your government, has historically = "Military Target"

Tarkin was using an interrogation technique fooling Leia that the Empire didn't know of Alderaan's treason and thus giving her hope that by giving up the Rebel base she had the power to save the planet. She never did. Palpatine dissolving the Imperial Senate and removing Bail Organa from the galactic political stage coupled with destroying a known haven of dissonance was him letting the galaxy know he was taking off the kid gloves.

Lucas may have originally intended Alderaan to be the perfect rebellion-innocent utopia, but over the years the franchise runners have changed that. (Standard disclaimer: Still not saying it was cool to blow it up).

I'd love to say this is the most tedious argument I've read on the internet today, but sadly I think its only the 3rd or 4th most.

Ever since Facebook started to be a "political" forum nothing in nerd space is ever even going to come close . Never in human history have so many people wasted time shouting their "opinion" into an echochamber.

I'd love to say this is the most tedious argument I've read on the internet today, but sadly I think its only the 3rd or 4th most.

Ever since Facebook started to be a "political" forum nothing in nerd space is ever even going to come close . Never in human history have so many people wasted time shouting their "opinion" into an echochamber.

Never really been a Facebook user, though I'm sure it would help lower my expectations.

No there is not. He makes a clear distinction between Alderaan and a military target. He then asks specifically for the location of the rebel base. If Alderaan was a military target then there is no logical reason for him to make that distinction.

Occam's Razor. Your theory assumes Tarkin considered Alderaan a military target, then assumes that his distinction between Alderaan and a military target is meaningless before assuming that the reason he didn't claim Alderaan was a military target verbally is he didn't feel like debating the point despite him defending Alderaan as a military target being the only way to communicate the idea it is a military target to the audience. Finally you assume he makes the distinction between Alderaan and a military target to avoid being sent to an empty system despite him stating specifically what location he wants a couple of sentences later.

My theory assumes that his distinction between Alderaan and a military target means he did not consider Alderaan a military target. Guess which idea has fewer assumptions.

There's less assumptions here then you would think.

-Alderaan was a MAJOR supporter of the rebellion in logistics and leadership and arguably actual war material .

-Alderaan's government at the highest level was complicit in actively conspiring against and trying to overthrow the Empire.

-The Empire knew of Alderaan was a haven of Rebel activity and Bail Organa had long been on Palpatine's hit list from the Republic Senate days.

Supplying support and infrastructure to an armed group of people trying to destroy your government, has historically = "Military Target"

Tarkin was using an interrogation technique fooling Leia that the Empire didn't know of Alderaan's treason and thus giving her hope that by giving up the Rebel base she had the power to save the planet. She never did. Palpatine dissolving the Imperial Senate and removing Bail Organa from the galactic political stage coupled with destroying a known haven of dissonance was him letting the galaxy know he was taking off the kid gloves.

Lucas may have originally intended Alderaan to be the perfect rebellion-innocent utopia, but over the years the franchise runners have changed that. (Standard disclaimer: Still not saying it was cool to blow it up).

We have no idea what the ratio of rebel supporting Aldeaanians to Imperial supporters or neutrals is in canon. Even in Legends we see a number of Alderaanian Imperial soldiers and officers though many defect after the Empire betrays them by destroying their home and killing their families, and some were on the ground when the Death Star hit the planet taking friendly fire to a whole new level.

I'd love to say this is the most tedious argument I've read on the internet today, but sadly I think its only the 3rd or 4th most.

Ever since Facebook started to be a "political" forum nothing in nerd space is ever even going to come close . Never in human history have so many people wasted time shouting their "opinion" into an echochamber.

Little did I know how prophetic those words were.

We have no idea what the ratio of rebel supporting Aldeaanians to Imperial supporters or neutrals is in canon. Even in Legends we see a number of Alderaanian Imperial soldiers and officers though many defect after the Empire betrays them by destroying their home and killing their families, and some were on the ground when the Death Star hit the planet taking friendly fire to a whole new level.

You're right we don't know the extent of rebel supporters among the general populace. I can't back it up, but it feels like it was a relatively small amount of Alderaan with the majority of support coming from the ruling class. Whether or not Alderaan "deserved" to be blown up is not the question, as the answer to that seems fairly obvious: No. But the details around it does frame an interesting question around Bail Organa and his actions and whether or not he had a right as an un-elected official and without the consent of his people to use his station for acts of treason and as a result put unsuspecting Alderaan(rians?) square in the midst of an insurgency.

I think its intriguing topic that the show-runners unintentionally brought up by giving Bail and Leia Organa "canon" screen time pre-ANH.

I thought the Tarkin Doctrine was about ruling through fear. Alderaan had leaders that were either part of, or supportive of the Rebellion. If they weren't direct supporters of the Rebellion, they sympathized with it. Tarkin's thoughts were to destroy an enemy of the Empire and bring the rest in line. If Alderaan wasn't actively part of the rebellion, it didn't matter. It would send a message to those that did support it (even morally) and make them think about where their loyalties lied.

Also reinforcing the need for imperial citizens to alert the Imperial forces about potential rebels they might know. You may not be a rebel but if you or your people harbor them then you are rebels in the Imperial eye.

But the details around it does frame an interesting question around Bail Organa and his actions and whether or not he had a right as an un-elected official and without the consent of his people to use his station for acts of treason and as a result put unsuspecting Alderaan(rians?) square in the midst of an insurgency.

There's a rather massive issue with your logic though, you effectively arguing that it was Bails fault that Alderaan got blown up. That because he did what he thought was best, it's his fault the whole planet got blown up.

That's a patently ridiculous argument to make. It's the same logic villains use to shift the blame for their actions onto someone else. 'The blood is on your hands even though I pulled the trigger'.

Bail can not be held responsable for what the Empire did.

Edit: You could make an argument that it would of been Bail's fault if the Empire landed troops and took out the royal family and instituted martial law or something. He likely expected that in fact.

But there's really little chance anyone would of expected even open rebellion would ever lead to the destruction of a whole planet. What he did however was never open rebellion, at least not that I know of.

I have it on good authority that Alderaan has infected with some sort of Zombie virus. If the Empire had allowed any living thing to escape, the entire galaxy would have been consumed like wildfire. Tarkin was a hero.

I have it on good authority that Alderaan has infected with some sort of Zombie virus. If the Empire had allowed any living thing to escape, the entire galaxy would have been consumed like wildfire. Tarkin was a hero.

Given the existence of Death Troopers and the fact that they are canon this is not impossible.

I have it on good authority that Alderaan has infected with some sort of Zombie virus. If the Empire had allowed any living thing to escape, the entire galaxy would have been consumed like wildfire. Tarkin was a hero.

Sounds like the Descolada. It took some serious space magic to defeat that before the planet destroying weapon arrived.

Alderaan lacked space magic so Tarkin was totes a hero if this theory pans out.

But the details around it does frame an interesting question around Bail Organa and his actions and whether or not he had a right as an un-elected official and without the consent of his people to use his station for acts of treason and as a result put unsuspecting Alderaan(rians?) square in the midst of an insurgency.

There's a rather massive issue with your logic though, you effectively arguing that it was Bails fault that Alderaan got blown up. That because he did what he thought was best, it's his fault the whole planet got blown up.

That's a patently ridiculous argument to make. It's the same logic villains use to shift the blame for their actions onto someone else. 'The blood is on your hands even though I pulled the trigger'.

Bail can not be held responsable for what the Empire did.

Edit: You could make an argument that it would of been Bail's fault if the Empire landed troops and took out the royal family and instituted martial law or something. He likely expected that in fact.

But there's really little chance anyone would of expected even open rebellion would ever lead to the destruction of a whole planet. What he did however was never open rebellion, at least not that I know of.

I think you might be misinterpreting me slightly. I'm not attempting to shift blame for Alderaan's destruction away from Tarkin/Emperor. Let me put it this way.

1. Bail commits treason.

2. The Empire decides to blow up Alderaan.

The are two choices that were made here, choice 2 is what you are referring too and what you think I'm arguing. I'm not. The Empire is responsible for Alderaan's destruction no contest. My question is around the first statement about Bail and whether or not he excised his (un-elected) power outside of his purview. That the people of Alderaan never decided for themselves to be rebel supporters or not is my concern regardless of the Empire's response.

For an awful analogy:

It would be nice to know if you're sharing a house and car with Bob who is secretly a major drug dealer before the SWAT team starts busting down your door. So you can A) Get a new roommate (oust the Organa family) or B) Find a new place to live (Leave Alderaan). You get mad at the SWAT team for wrecking your house and shooting your dog, but its also okay not to be thrilled with Bob.

... And Bail Organa will now be known forevermore as Bob the Dealer at my house...

For an awful analogy:

It would be nice to know if you're sharing a house and car with Bob who is secretly a major drug dealer before the SWAT team starts busting down your door. So you can A) Get a new roommate (oust the Organa family) or B) Find a new place to live (Leave Alderaan). You get mad at the SWAT team for wrecking your house and shooting your dog, but its also okay not to be thrilled with Bob.

So yeah, not a good analogy.

For an awful analogy:

It would be nice to know if you're sharing a house and car with Bob who is secretly a major drug dealer before the SWAT team starts busting down your door. So you can A) Get a new roommate (oust the Organa family) or B) Find a new place to live (Leave Alderaan). You get mad at the SWAT team for wrecking your house and shooting your dog, but its also okay not to be thrilled with Bob.

To more accurately finish the analogy:

It'd be as though the SWAT team detonated a nuclear weapon over the city you lived in because "It's the only way to be sure we got the guy."

Without obtaining a warrant for his arrest.

Or even getting proof of Bob's guilt.

See? Bail Organa and Leia Organa were guilty of... whatever crime those who support terrorists are guilty of. Potentially some of the ordinary folks were too. But destroying a planet to punish and execute those few people is just entirely evil, and trying to shift the blame to Bail is like... well, to use another analogy, it's like saying, "Hey, that guy's wife had the broken arm coming, she burned his dinner and didn't bring him a beer fast enough."

For an awful analogy:

It would be nice to know if you're sharing a house and car with Bob who is secretly a major drug dealer before the SWAT team starts busting down your door. So you can A) Get a new roommate (oust the Organa family) or B) Find a new place to live (Leave Alderaan). You get mad at the SWAT team for wrecking your house and shooting your dog, but its also okay not to be thrilled with Bob.

But the drug dealer Bob could have expected a SWAT team causing some minor damage to your belongings and - at worst - endangering your pet's life, not an ICBM strike rendering half of the state unhabitable for the next few centuries...

So yeah, not a good analogy.

You're missing my point. In this analogy if the SWAT team ends up politely knocking on your door looking for pleasant small talk and gives you warm tasty cookies or comes in gun blazing is immaterial. You still probably won't be super thrilled with Bob, because he put you at risk without your knowledge or consent with his illegal activities.

To more accurately finish the analogy:

It'd be as though the SWAT team detonated a nuclear weapon over the city you lived in because "It's the only way to be sure we got the guy."

Without obtaining a warrant for his arrest.

Or even getting proof of Bob's guilt.

See? Bail Organa and Leia Organa were guilty of... whatever crime those who support terrorists are guilty of. Potentially some of the ordinary folks were too. But destroying a planet to punish and execute those few people is just entirely evil, and trying to shift the blame to Bail is like... well, to use another analogy, it's like saying, "Hey, that guy's wife had the broken arm coming, she burned his dinner and didn't bring him a beer fast enough."

I didn't see your post before my last response, but I think it addresses your point. Again I'm not shifting blame from the Empire for the destruction of Alderaan.

I guess let me put it this way;. Take the Death Star out of the equation and we will stop the timeline 2 minutes before ANH would start. We (and Bail) knows the Empire has a tendency for atrocities and the emperor is evil . Therefore it is reasonable to assume acts of treason = some sort of risk. I'm asking if Queens/dictators making that decision secretly for their subjects is justified or "good". The question remains even if the Death Star never destroyed Alderaan.

Are we sure Bail and his wife weren't elected on some level? Elected monarchs aren't exactly without precedent in Star Wars.

The way I see it planetary leaders in this era had three choices.

1: Outright declare a rebellion which would guarantee an attack and given that the Empire doesn't give a **** about civilian causalities virtually guaranteeing massive loss of innocent life.

2: Covertly aid the Rebellion while hoping no one suspects enough or finds enough proof for the Empire to launch an attack, though that doesn't take much proof.

3: Go along with the Empire and hope no Imperial officials or officers feel like using their authority in ways that harm your citizens while watching millions or billions of innocents suffering at Imperial hands and hoping no Imperials decide you or your citizens are suspect..

And remember this is an Empire which doesn't care how many of its law abiding citizens it cuts down, an Empire based on the idea that keeping its civilians terrified is a good thing.

Ive been gone most of the week on a trip, so I'm behind, but I read somthing about me criticizing the Rebels just because I like the Empire, but that's not true. I totally get the "it's war" thing, but I saw a lot of cases where they killed when they didn't need to. Ezra force pushed the guy OFF into the abyss, why not just lift him up and slam him down, give him a concussion. If I go back and watch it again, I might remember more cases of that.

Even if the rebels do sometimes kill without needing to it never gets anywhere close to how many times the Empire kills without needing too. Without more exact details on the incident in question I can't really respond in detail.

Could you guys actually talk about Rebels as it pertains to X-wing? Like taking about what kind of carrier it will be? You basically doesn't the lady week and five pages talking politics FFS.

Could you guys actually talk about Rebels as it pertains to X-wing? Like taking about what kind of carrier it will be? You basically doesn't the lady week and five pages talking politics FFS.

Death Star Lasers don't melt steel beams. Alderaan was an inside job!

Could you guys actually talk about Rebels as it pertains to X-wing? Like taking about what kind of carrier it will be? You basically doesn't the lady week and five pages talking politics FFS.

Its either a Quaser Fire class or a design meant to look just like one. In either case the odds of it being small enough to appear in X-Wing are pretty much zero.

Either way, I agree the politics debate got real tired. And a quasar fire custom would be doable...