Blowing up a whole planet just as an object lesson is an inherently evil thing, and who writes the history books doesn't actually change a thing.

"And on that day, the Empire heroically destroyed the vile planet of Alderan, forge world of the villainous fleets of the rebellion that sought to terrorize and pillage the galaxy."

If you perceive the government as having legitimacy, then anyone who takes up arms against it is a terrorist. If you perceive the government as illegitimate, then anyone who takes up arms against it is a rebel.

I'll agree it's a matter of perspective. All rebellions are considered terrorists by the government they're fighting against.

But that again is such a broad definition that it loses meaning, and is typically used as propaganda to dismiss the group that's fighting against them. If the only thing you need to do to be considered a terrorist is to take up arms against a government regardless of how just it may or may not be then it is a meaningless term.

Yes; the subjectivity of the term makes it meaningless if one is trying to objectively describe someone as a terrorist.

Edit: Wrong thread

"And on that day, the Empire heroically destroyed the vile world of Alderan before it could complete construction of it's evil doomfleet, designed to lay waste to the galaxy."

But we know objectively that the above statement is not true.

We know that Tarkin blew it up as an object lesson to invoke terror and to force Lela to give up the rebel base.

What they released as propaganda is really meaningless, as is pretty much all propaganda.

But we know objectively that the above statement is not true.

What they released as propaganda is really meaningless, as is pretty much all propaganda.

But that's exactly what we were talking about. He said "History is written by the winners." and you said no matter how you spin blowing up a planet, you're still the bad guys. But you can absolutely spin blowing up a planet to make it sound like you're the good guys.

I mean, ****, I'm American. We blew up two entire cities and we totally spin that to make us sound like the good guys.

But we know objectively that the above statement is not true.

What they released as propaganda is really meaningless, as is pretty much all propaganda.

But that's exactly what we were talking about. He said "History is written by the winners." and you said no matter how you spin blowing up a planet, you're still the bad guys. But you can absolutely spin blowing up a planet to make it sound like you're the good guys.

I mean, ****, I'm American. We blew up two entire cities and we totally spin that to make us sound like the good guys.

A legitimate argument for the dropping of the bombs can be made. Hiroshima was actually an industrial and military center for imperial Japan of substantial size.

There is also the actually and genuinely unthinkable projected casualties for Operation Downfall , the scope of that invasion would make the European theater look like peanuts in comparison.

Are we seriously going to argue that Star Wars, in the most popular mediums, isn't about Good vs Evil?

But you can absolutely spin blowing up a planet to make it sound like you're the good guys.

Not going to get into real history... But no you can't not in this case, not without lying about it. The empire knew there was no military targets on Alderaan and the sole reason for destroying it was because it would be a very public object lesson.

With history, we don't have perfect knowledge of what actually happened, with Star Wars we actually do.

I'm not saying its cool to blow up planets.

Buuuuuuuut

Alderaan was not without its faults and a legitimate military target for retaliation on some scale.

-Alderaan as I understand it was not a democracy. "Senator" Bail Organa got his title from being married to Breha Organa the Queen of Alderaan.

-The Queen and her husband decide they don't like Sheev's little regime change so they decide to actively try and overthrow it. This decision is
A) Made without the consent of the Alderaan people by the un-elected dictator of the planet. An open vote would be kind of out of the question.
B) Executed very sloppily and their treason (warranted or not) is very easily traced back to them. As if sending your adopted daughter gives you plausible deniability?! Great choice Bail.

Alderaan was a critical supplier in both munitions and leadership to the rebellion. The ruling monarchy knew it was putting all the people of Alderaan in the Empire's cross-hairs yet did it so anyway both ineptly and probably unbeknownst to most of its people. Blowing up the entire planet unquestionably overkill as the Empire could have gotten away with the classic kill the entire ruling family and install a puppet local government move, but hey they are mustache-twirling villains and we and more importantly Bail and Breha should expect nothing less.

Alderaan was not without its faults and a legitimate military target for retaliation on some scale.

No it was not. Tarkin himself makes this quite clear. He picked Alderaan because it would make an effective demonstration. He never once challenges Lela's statement that it had no weapons.

The Empire slaughtered billions simply for the sake of the terror it would cause.

Bottom line as Sithborg pointed out, is that Star Wars is at it's core very much black and white, the Good guys are good and the bad guys are evil.

The EU tried to soften that and make it more shades of grey, which IMO was part of the problem with the EU. Space Opera by its very nature is black and white, and Star Wars is the quintessential Space Opera.

Are we seriously going to argue that Star Wars, in the most popular mediums, isn't about Good vs Evil?

As a side note I think Star Wars is a great vehicle to argue about Good vs Evil, because the authors actively try to wipe away all ambiguity and nuance and beat you over the head with this guy GOOD! This guy is BAD! There is no moral grey zone! But when they do that they illustrate how hard writing objective good and bad can be.

Case in point: The Republic and the pre-Empire Jedi can be argued to be evil organizations. Less evil than the Empire sure, but these were unintentional sinister organizations and its fun to think about.

Alderaan was not without its faults and a legitimate military target for retaliation on some scale.

No it was not. Tarkin himself makes this quite clear. He picked Alderaan because it would make an effective demonstration. He never once challenges Lela's statement that it had no weapons.

The Empire slaughtered billions simply for the sake of the terror it would cause.

Note: I'm not saying retaliation = Blowing up the planet. But the Empire was certainly justified in removing the ruling monarchy who actively sought its destruction.

Tarkin might not have even known the extent of Alderaan's complicity in the plot to overthrow the Empire and of course his line was written before Lucas knew he was going to try and flesh out several storylines during this time period.

-It is canon that both Bail and Leia are running around in the years prior to ANH actively subverting the Empire in various way and using the advantages of their station to do so.

-It is canon that Alderaan was one the founders of the Alliance to Restore the Republic.

I don't remember the source, but I remember Alderaan being a major source of munitions for the rebels. You can take or leave this one since I can't provide the source material.

But the Empire was certainly justified in removing the ruling monarchy who actively sought its destruction.

Sure, but is anyone going to try and argue that the Empire was justified to destroy a whole planet to get at a single group of people?

I guess my issue is that some people try and add shades of gray to something that was intentionally black and white. I get that often shades can be more interesting than black and white, or at least more relatable. But one of the strong points of Star Wars IMO was the black and white nature of it.

I like my white hats good and my black hats evil, I like not having to sort through the nuances I do in real life.

Are we seriously going to argue that Star Wars, in the most popular mediums, isn't about Good vs Evil?

As a side note I think Star Wars is a great vehicle to argue about Good vs Evil, because the authors actively try to wipe away all ambiguity and nuance and beat you over the head with this guy GOOD! This guy is BAD! There is no moral grey zone! But when they do that they illustrate how hard writing objective good and bad can be.

Case in point: The Republic and the pre-Empire Jedi can be argued to be evil organizations. Less evil than the Empire sure, but these were unintentional sinister organizations and its fun to think about.

Alderaan was not without its faults and a legitimate military target for retaliation on some scale.

No it was not. Tarkin himself makes this quite clear. He picked Alderaan because it would make an effective demonstration. He never once challenges Lela's statement that it had no weapons.

The Empire slaughtered billions simply for the sake of the terror it would cause.

Note: I'm not saying retaliation = Blowing up the planet. But the Empire was certainly justified in removing the ruling monarchy who actively sought its destruction.

Tarkin might not have even known the extent of Alderaan's complicity in the plot to overthrow the Empire and of course his line was written before Lucas knew he was going to try and flesh out several storylines during this time period.

-It is canon that both Bail and Leia are running around in the years prior to ANH actively subverting the Empire in various way and using the advantages of their station to do so.

-It is canon that Alderaan was one the founders of the Alliance to Restore the Republic.

I don't remember the source, but I remember Alderaan being a major source of munitions for the rebels. You can take or leave this one since I can't provide the source material.

Well, it's definitely canon that Alderaan was a completely pacifist society; they didn't make weapons or munitions, so I don't know how they would have supplied them.

They did supply a lot of material goods to the Rebellion, mostly in the form of ships, and maintained deniability by covertly arranging for their ships to be "stolen" by rebels.

But the Empire was certainly justified in removing the ruling monarchy who actively sought its destruction.

Sure, but is anyone going to try and argue that the Empire was justified to destroy a whole planet to get at a single group of people?

I guess my issue is that some people try and add shades of gray to something that was intentionally black and white. I get that often shades can be more interesting than black and white, or at least more relatable. But one of the strong points of Star Wars IMO was the black and white nature of it.

I like my white hats good and my black hats evil, I like not having to sort through the nuances I do in real life.

I know I certainly won't. But I am interested on whether or not Bail Organa, his wife and to a lesser extent Leia were justified in leading the rebellion and putting ALL the people of Alderaan at risk without any sort of democratic process.

And personally I love nuances being applied to 'escapist' media and most especially where they are designed not to be. It makes it far more relatable to me and interesting. But hey different strokes for different folks and all that.

Well, it's definitely canon that Alderaan was a completely pacifist society; they didn't make weapons or munitions, so I don't know how they would have supplied them.

They did supply a lot of material goods to the Rebellion, mostly in the form of ships, and maintained deniability by covertly arranging for their ships to be "stolen" by rebels.

Well, it's definitely canon that Alderaan was a completely pacifist society; they didn't make weapons or munitions, so I don't know how they would have supplied them.

They did supply a lot of material goods to the Rebellion, mostly in the form of ships, and maintained deniability by covertly arranging for their ships to be "stolen" by rebels.

Well Bail did arrange to have 3 Hammerhead corvettes supplied to the rebels. I'm unclear on the exact origins of the vessels - if they were part of Alderaan's security force or if he pulled them from other sectors I'm not sure.

As I said I can't remember the source and there is a decent chance its not even canon anymore.

But even if there wasn't a single sharp pointy stick on Alderaan, it has been made extremely clear that Alderaan played an absolute critical and active part in the rebellion.

I don't think that fact is in dispute; what's in dispute is the suggestion that it's sufficient justification for destroying an entire planet.

But I am interested on whether or not Bail Organa, his wife and to a lesser extent Leia were justified in leading the rebellion and putting ALL the people of Alderaan at risk without any sort of democratic process.

To be fair, there is no way Bail or Leia could be accountable for Alderaan being destroyed. What the Empire did was so far out, that it was a hyperspace jump into insane. You don't kill billions to get rid of a few hundred, or perhaps even less.

So nothing they did could reasonably be grounds for destruction of the whole planet. Officially Alderaan was not part of the Rebel Alliance, and even if some citizens of that planet were providing aid and comfort.

FWIW, here's a copy and paste from the script.

Tarkin: Since you are reluctant to provide us with the location of the Rebel base, I have chosen to test this station's destructive power... on your home planet of Alderaan.

Leia: No! Alderaan is peaceful. We have no weapons. You can't possibly...

Tarkin: You would prefer another target? A military target? Then name the system!

Tarkin: Dantooine is too remote to make an effective demonstration.

So per his own words, Alderaan is not a military target and was picked Alderaan as leverage over Leia and as a demonstration. There is no other justification given. That whole thing was done in large as a way of demonstrating just how evil the Empire really was.

FWIW, here's a copy and paste from the script.

Tarkin: Since you are reluctant to provide us with the location of the Rebel base, I have chosen to test this station's destructive power... on your home planet of Alderaan.

Leia: No! Alderaan is peaceful. We have no weapons. You can't possibly...

Tarkin: You would prefer another target? A military target? Then name the system!

Tarkin: Dantooine is too remote to make an effective demonstration.

So per his own words, Alderaan is not a military target and was picked Alderaan as leverage over Leia and as a demonstration. There is no other justification given. That whole thing was done in large as a way of demonstrating just how evil the Empire really was.

A more sensible sith emperor would have airlocked Tarkin for that kind of stunt. Then again Palpatine probably found the whole thing to be hilarious.

Then again Palpatine probably found the whole thing to be hilarious.

There's no real question that destroying Alderaan would of been an amazing demonstration and had the DS not blown up a week or so later it may of paid off.

I don't think that fact is in dispute; what's in dispute is the suggestion that it's sufficient justification for destroying an entire planet.

But I am interested on whether or not Bail Organa, his wife and to a lesser extent Leia were justified in leading the rebellion and putting ALL the people of Alderaan at risk without any sort of democratic process.

To be fair, there is no way Bail or Leia could be accountable for Alderaan being destroyed. What the Empire did was so far out, that it was a hyperspace jump into insane. You don't kill billions to get rid of a few hundred, or perhaps even less.

So nothing they did could reasonably be grounds for destruction of the whole planet. Officially Alderaan was not part of the Rebel Alliance, and even if some citizens of that planet were providing aid and comfort.

That brings up an interesting point. The Organa family and its government either operated without the general consensus of the Alderaan populace and risked everyone's lives or the majority of Alderaan including the lower classes actively supported the rebellion.

Option A displays incredibly selfish and arguably deplorable leadership. Seems like the most likely option and Bail unknowingly or not paints a bulls-eye on the back of every Alderaan citizen with his actions. This isn't necessarily a bad move, knowing the Empire will overreach (not necessarily blow up the planet) and every innocent person the Empire kills is a recruit poster for new rebels, but it is a callous one. The net effect of Alderaan's destruction was in the end a great boon to the rebellion. The alternative is that he was simply ignorant or didn't care which simply makes him an ignorant ruler. I'm not sure what's worse.

Option B (which seems less likely) the entire planet is aiding and abetting insurgents which would for the Imperials make it a legitimate target.

We are never told the extent of the average Alderaan's citizen's role or knowledge in the rebellion. The Star Wars data bank lists Alderaan a " haven of Rebel activity " and Tarkin/Empire knew. Even without the Death Star, the planet was in for a rough time. Granted neither of these options justifies blowing up an entire planet in my opinion, but it does paint the Organa family in an unflattering, but human and ultimately more interesting light.

Note: No planets were "officially" part of the rebellion as in openly flying the Rebel flag so I'm not sure what you meant.

Tarkin: You would prefer another target? A military target? Then name the system!

So per his own words, Alderaan is not a military target and was picked Alderaan as leverage over Leia and as a demonstration. There is no other justification given. That whole thing was done in large as a way of demonstrating just how evil the Empire really was.

I think the question mark in this sentence is being misconstrued. Tarkin is simply saying that if she wants it to be another target, that the alternate target has to be military (otherwise it is not a suitable alternative for Alderaan). It doesn't automatically preclude the idea of Alderaan also being a military target.

So, Tarkin isn't writing Alderaan off as a civilian target. It was definitely chosen as a demonstration and as a punishment, but the Empire knew that Alderaan was giving material aid to the Rebellion. Leia's protestations that Alderaan was "peaceful" was technically untrue if they were supplying war material for the Alliance, even if they were only producing core components like unarmed ships that they knew would be retrofitted as combat vessels later.

I mean, no political stance alone would justify destroying a populated planet, so the Death Star destroying Alderaan was evil any way you slice it. But Tarkin's line was merely telling Leia that she had to suggest a better military target (the Rebel base) if she wanted to save Alderaan. The fact that he blew up Alderaan anyway showed that the Empire placed significant interest in the psychological value of the first target. Alderaan was a statement. "If you support the Rebellion, we will blow you up." However, for that statement to be effective, there has to at least be some kind of tangible link to the Rebellion. Otherwise, the statement is "We're going to blow you up if we even think you're helping the rebels". That doesn't provide a disincentive. If you're likely going to be punished anyway, there is significantly less reason not to commit the crime.

Tarkin: You would prefer another target? A military target? Then name the system!

So per his own words, Alderaan is not a military target and was picked Alderaan as leverage over Leia and as a demonstration. There is no other justification given. That whole thing was done in large as a way of demonstrating just how evil the Empire really was.

I think the question mark in this sentence is being misconstrued. Tarkin is simply saying that if she wants it to be another target, that the alternate target has to be military (otherwise it is not a suitable alternative for Alderaan). It doesn't automatically preclude the idea of Alderaan also being a military target.

So, Tarkin isn't writing Alderaan off as a civilian target. It was definitely chosen as a demonstration and as a punishment, but the Empire knew that Alderaan was giving material aid to the Rebellion. Leia's protestations that Alderaan was "peaceful" was technically untrue if they were supplying war material for the Alliance, even if they were only producing core components like unarmed ships that they knew would be retrofitted as combat vessels later.

I mean, no political stance alone would justify destroying a populated planet, so the Death Star destroying Alderaan was evil any way you slice it. But Tarkin's line was merely telling Leia that she had to suggest a better military target (the Rebel base) if she wanted to save Alderaan. The fact that he blew up Alderaan anyway showed that the Empire placed significant interest in the psychological value of the first target. Alderaan was a statement. "If you support the Rebellion, we will blow you up." However, for that statement to be effective, there has to at least be some kind of tangible link to the Rebellion. Otherwise, the statement is "We're going to blow you up if we even think you're helping the rebels". That doesn't provide a disincentive. If you're likely going to be punished anyway, there is significantly less reason not to commit the crime.

I think Alderaan was the Rebels worst kept secret and its fate was sealed before Leia's interrogation.

-It was a well known logistical support center for the rebellion.

-Bail was a known political enemy to the Emperor from the Republic days.

-Palaptine the control freak that he was, would probably want to be consulted before Tarkin goes blowing up planets willy-nilly.

I think Bail used Alderaan's reputation as a pacifist society and its citizen's as human shields to protect his rebel interests thinking the planet relatively immune from reprisal as long as it stayed in a logistical role. I mean after all blowing up an entire planet is just insane! Who would do that?

Palpy/Tarkin called his bluff to make a very clear message/change in policy. You are either pro-empire or you are our enemy. If you know someone who knows someone who is a rebel and don't report it you are culpable. This policy of course ended up back firing when the Empire loses pretty much every battle it has by a group of teenagers and the galaxy learns that the Imperial military was trained by the three stooges.

I am pretty sure that while Alderaan wasn't a military participant it was a known supporter for the rebel cause - at least to Imperial Intelligencia - which is the main reason Tarkin chose that planet to make a statement.

The Rebels episode with Leia confirms that the Empire is suspecting something fishy going on there - I mean, even a lowly Lieutenant heard about constantly highjacked Alderaan ships, making the destruction of Alderaan a bit more than just a “for the evulz"-move, rather a very harsh punishment and example for what would happen to other parties, if they'd decide to support insurgents.