16 minutes ago, Forresto said:

I think the difference though is what the Empire would define Lothal as.

Given the Ghost's known allegiance to the Alliance and then appearing not long after in the Battle of Scarif, i'm sure Lothal would be labeled as an Alliance operation to the Imperials.

Hence a victory for the Rebellion...Pre Scarif...

The brass, maybe. But to most others, including the official description of events that the public would get, it makes more sense to pass this off as purely a local thing. Crediting it to the Alliance is only free publicity for them, something the Empire doesn’t want.

And once again, we come back to the Partisans. While ISB would likely be able to pick up on the split from the Alliance, it’s early actions could still be accredited to the Alliance and possibly even further afterwards, meaning the Empire’s classification of events might be faulty already.

9 minutes ago, Deimos said:

The question is even if Lothal was worthless to reoccupy, why would not the Empire have returned to simply glass the world via bombardment as either an example or a cover up to the defeat?

It is likely that Lothal was on the Death Star’s kill list, thus leaving it for later wasn’t too big a problem. After the Battle of Yavin, the Emperor was actually in a spot of trouble as he had disbanded his former tools of control (the senate) and his replacement (the Death Star) had been destroyed (see the Darth Vader Comic for this). The most likely explanation is that Lothal was shifted to a low priority as the Rebel Alliance gained traction and other worlds considered defiance (the Darth Vader Comic also has an example of this). And once again, i’m sure it got added to the Death Star 2’s destroy list.

9 minutes ago, Deimos said:

The question is even if Lothal was worthless to reoccupy, why would not the Empire have returned to simply glass the world via bombardment as either an example or a cover up to the defeat?

Well a totalitarian government would make an effort to cover up such a loss as Lothal, no matter how insignificant.

Its the reprisal that demonstrates "strength". Even if you're victorious against our ground forces, we'll destroy you from space. If you destroy our space forces we'll just send another fleet. There is no victory.

Any planet that escapes diminishes your reputation.

Heck Tarkin was waging planetary sieges up to the year the Death Star was completed according to Catalyst so theres not way the Empire didn't have the ability to go back to Lothal.

I chuck this up to Filnoi being sentimental and writing Lothal a happy ending rather then telling a story. There is no actual logic why the Empire never returned.

~

Now my solution from a few pages back was Sabine could've mentioned that every now and then an Imperial patrol ship returned to extort an Imperial tax, because the bigger ships were busy fighting the war, until Endor. That way Lothal was technically never liberated, it was still an Imperial world, it just didn't hold any value so the Empire never reinstalled a governor or installation there.

Happy ending that makes sense.

12 hours ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Okay.. we get it. You'd just as soon kiss a wookie.

*Barfs externally*
I have some standards. They don't even bathe! Eugh! what is the point of being all fluffy if it's not clean fluffy?

"Those were Alliance Bombs..."

#RememberEdauFlightStationVictory

1 hour ago, Captain Lackwit said:

*Barfs externally*
I have some standards. They don't even bathe! Eugh! what is the point of being all fluffy if it's not clean fluffy?

*hyena-laugh*

4 hours ago, Deimos said:

The question is even if Lothal was worthless to reoccupy, why would not the Empire have returned to simply glass the world via bombardment as either an example or a cover up to the defeat?

Lothal was in the outer rim, Tarkin’s territory. It’s such a huge territory that he needs to be a Grand Moff to control it, not just a Moff. After the losses of Thrawn and his fleet and Tarkin’s previous dealings with the Lothal Rebels and his new shiny Death Star, I’m sure the plan was to blow away Lothal after the destruction of the main Rebel base at Yavin. However the loss of the DS and Tarkin probably put Lothal way down on the priority list since Luke and crew were the most wanted Rebels I the galaxy and for a time no one was in charge of the outer rim until another governor/Grand Moff could be installed, since the Senate had been disolved and the Empire was relying on the Tarkin doctrine of rule by fear.

And without Pryce, Tarkin, Thrawn, Konstantine, or anyone else personally involved in Lothal, and Vader occupied with the hunt for Skywalker, there was no one left willing to invest suddenly much more scarce/needed resources on a planet with nothing the Empire wanted at that point anyway.

so all you need is info from the first movie and Rebels itself for the answer as to why the empire just didn’t care about that backwater anymore.

5 hours ago, Forresto said:

I think the difference though is what the Empire would define Lothal as.

Given the Ghost's known allegiance to the Alliance and then appearing not long after in the Battle of Scarif, i'm sure Lothal would be labeled as an Alliance operation to the Imperials.

Hence a victory for the Rebellion...Pre Scarif...

The opening text crawl for ANH is obviously Alliance propaganda since it portrays the Empire as sinister and evil. History is written by the winners so the Rebels would consider Scarif their first real victory since they were ready to disband immediately before, with only Saw’s group as the only one actively fighting (and losing) at that point. The battles of Scarif and Yavin proved the rebellion could stand up to the mightiest war machines and tyranny the empire could muster. It seems their only other victories of note were Endor and Jakku, with Hoth being saved from a complete loss to a fighting retreat.

6 hours ago, SabineKey said:

So, the fact that Mom Mothma denied their requests (to the frustration of the Ghost crew) doesn’t leave it open for the Ghost crew could step away from the Alliance to deal with something personal? You can also note the attitude of the Ghost crew towards the Rebel Alliance when they liberated Lothal. They really weren’t interested in Alliance aid as they felt they did the work without the Alliance.

You are also forgetting Saw and his Partisans. Do you think Saw’s shady tactics only started after he was booted out of the Alliance? He was an extremist to begin with and I can guarantee you the likes of Mothma and Organa wouldn’t be claiming credit for his actions.

Now, compare what happened on Lothal with Scarif. Scarif was won by the heroic actions and sacrifices of (relatively) normal people. Lothal had a large dose of mystisum tied into its liberation, from Jedi aid (which the Alliance no longer had), force sensitive wolves and space whales (which they can’t control). Does it sound like a good idea to take credit for something you can’t recreate? I know Rebellions are built on hope, but false hope like “we liberated Lothal” when they had no influence in the proceedings can turn to poison.

And finally, the reason Scarif is a Rebel Alliance victory is because they actually committed forces. Yes, the Rogue One crew was unsactioned. Raddus too. And if they had failed, it would have been a misguided, rogue op that wouldn’t have been listed in the Alliance’s exploits. But upon hearing the opportunity, the remaining Rebel leaders threw what they could to aid in the Battle(primarily Mothma and Organa) resulting in success. The Alliance did no such thing in the final liberation of Lothal, thus have no stake in the success that was obtained.

Edit: To answer your WW2 point, the USA was involved with China for shipping them weapons. However, can the US claim Chinese victories as their own when it was Chinese actions and blood that obtained it?

After several pages of discussion I feel like anybody defending the show on this point needs to accept that no matter how they play with words, lothal was a rebel victory, therefore noncanon, strictly because of the overwhelming ties with the alliance before and after the event, as well as the nature of the organization as a whole.

This point is really not up for debate, not if you are being intellectually honest.

You can still like the show. But don't defend it like it has no flaws. It has many. This is one of them. Just let it go.

5 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

*Barfs externally*
I have some standards. They don't even bathe! Eugh! what is the point of being all fluffy if it's not clean fluffy?

Can you take your filth somewhere else? I'm not sharing my kinks, and - full disclosure - that's better for everyone. Can I expect the same decency from you?

3 hours ago, RufusDaMan said:

After several pages of discussion I feel like anybody defending the show on this point needs to accept that no matter how they play with words, lothal was a rebel victory, therefore noncanon, strictly because of the overwhelming ties with the alliance before and after the event, as well as the nature of the organization as a whole.

This point is really not up for debate, not if you are being intellectually honest.

You can still like the show. But don't defend it like it has no flaws. It has many. This is one of them. Just let it go.

Ultimately Lothal is lost to history until shown to us through canon material. Rebel victory, or not. I doubt we ever see it again.

anyway, the finale would have been more interesting if it had been a defeat. But that’s more difficult to write than magic space whales.

4 hours ago, RufusDaMan said:

After several pages of discussion I feel like anybody defending the show on this point needs to accept that no matter how they play with words, lothal was a rebel victory, therefore noncanon, strictly because of the overwhelming ties with the alliance before and after the event, as well as the nature of the organization as a whole.

This point is really not up for debate, not if you are being intellectually honest.

You can still like the show. But don't defend it like it has no flaws. It has many. This is one of them. Just let it go.

I’m not playing with words, i’m using the context of the show and other material to explain the situation. If you don’t think that is strong enough, that’s up to you. I myself never claimed it was perfect. But I do think at least this not being counted as a Alliance victory actually makes sense. And yes, I am being intellectually honest. Look through my arguments again. I stand by what I said.

Also, i’m not getting this “it’s non-canon” argument. I have not heard Disney using the “As long as it doesn’t contradict the movies” clause. If it is in one of their projects, it’s canon.

57 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Also, i’m not getting this “it’s non-canon” argument. I have not heard Disney using the “As long as it doesn’t contradict the movies” clause. If it is in one of their projects, it’s canon.

Eventually enough Nu canon will contradict itself or the feature films that we will be back to a tiered canon hierarchy again, with D canon (of course Disney would be the Highest), G canon (for goofy) P canon (for princess) and JJ canon (for binks or Abrams, take your pick).

oh I forgot K canon for SJW material

6 minutes ago, GrimmyV said:

Eventually enough Nu canon will contradict itself or the feature films that we will be back to a tiered canon hierarchy again, with D canon (of course Disney would be the Highest), G canon (for goofy) P canon (for princess) and JJ canon (for binks or Abrams, take your pick).

oh I forgot K canon for SJW material

Perhaps. But we aren’t there yet and can’t be certain what aspects will be downgraded. Already saying that the ending to Rebels is non-canon is premature.

Just now, SabineKey said:

Perhaps. But we aren’t there yet and can’t be certain what aspects will be downgraded. Already saying that the ending to Rebels is non-canon is premature.

It’s ok, my personal ‘head canon’ includes ANH, ESB, and that’s it. Everything else is a Legend.

1 minute ago, GrimmyV said:

It’s ok, my personal ‘head canon’ includes ANH, ESB, and that’s it. Everything else is a Legend.

And that's fair. There is some personal editing of my own to the franchise.

35 minutes ago, GrimmyV said:

It’s ok, my personal ‘head canon’ includes ANH, ESB, and that’s it. Everything else is a Legend.

I include that one scene where a certain Mon Cal shouts “it’s a TRAP,” then cut off from there.

Cue The Imperial March. Forever.

1 hour ago, SabineKey said:

I’m not playing with words, i’m using the context of the show and other material to explain the situation. If you don’t think that is strong enough, that’s up to you. I myself never claimed it was perfect. But I do think at least this not being counted as a Alliance victory actually makes sense. And yes, I am being intellectually honest. Look through my arguments again. I stand by what I said.

Also, i’m not getting this “it’s non-canon” argument. I have not heard Disney using the “As long as it doesn’t contradict the movies” clause. If it is in one of their projects, it’s canon.

So how do you handle contradictions?

Also. You are. And you are definitely not using the other materials to explain the situation. What you are doing is arguing semantics. The "Rebels" are not part of the Rebellion is definitely a false statement. At best, it is a technicality of the circumstances, but even then, the overall relationship between Phoenix squadron and the Alliance is clear.

They were members both before and after. They were involved in the most important campaigns of the Rebellion. They were part of the chosen rebel elite force on Endor.

They are integral part of the Rebellion everytime EXCEPT the time they defeat the empire.

If that is not a lazy technicality to work around the bad writing, I don't know what is.

3 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:

So how do you handle contradictions?

Also. You are. And you are definitely not using the other materials to explain the situation. What you are doing is arguing semantics. The "Rebels" are not part of the Rebellion is definitely a false statement. At best, it is a technicality of the circumstances, but even then, the overall relationship between Phoenix squadron and the Alliance is clear.

They were members both before and after. They were involved in the most important campaigns of the Rebellion. They were part of the chosen rebel elite force on Endor.

They are integral part of the Rebellion everytime EXCEPT the time they defeat the empire.

If that is not a lazy technicality to work around the bad writing, I don't know what is.

Explain Saws group then?

1 minute ago, RufusDaMan said:

If that is not a lazy technicality to work around the bad writing, I don't know what is.

I thought it was a bad technically to work around lazy writing myself. But it’s still a technically and that’s good enough for legal proceedings.

i still think that the Lothal Campaign is overshadowed by virtually all other operations and aspects of the Rebellion when taken as a complete picture. Liberating one planet in the outer rim after the empire was practically done exploiting it doesn’t compare to the sacrifice and victory at Scarif or the destruction of the DS and the temporary end to the stranglehold of fear the Empire had imposed on the galaxy.

or maybe the epilogue to Rebels is a dream. Except Rex at Endor, that totally happened.

1 minute ago, RufusDaMan said:

So how do you handle contradictions?

Also. You are. And you are definitely not using the other materials to explain the situation. What you are doing is arguing semantics. The "Rebels" are not part of the Rebellion is definitely a false statement. At best, it is a technicality of the circumstances, but even then, the overall relationship between Phoenix squadron and the Alliance is clear.

They were members both before and after. They were involved in the most important campaigns of the Rebellion. They were part of the chosen rebel elite force on Endor.

They are integral part of the Rebellion everytime EXCEPT the time they defeat the empire.

If that is not a lazy technicality to work around the bad writing, I don't know what is.

Present the contradictions, please.

For outside material, let me pull in some facts from the Darth Vader comic. In the comic, Vader is forced to compete with others to remain the Emperor's apprentice while also trying to have a private investigation into Luke's origins. During this, he uses Mercenaries, bounty hunters, and his own private droid strike force. By your logic, what he is doing still should be counted as Imperial actions, despite him working against the Empire in some places and his motives being purely personal. See? One can be a part of something, and yet still take actions that are entirely their own.

And once again, the side who claims that the ending doesn't work forget about the Partisans. They're rebels, but not part of the Rebel Alliance, meaning that attributing all rebel activity to the Alliance is a gross misrepresentation of facts. There were also other, minor victories over the Empire in both the proceeding seasons of Rebels and books like Thrawn, so some distinction between people rebelling against the empire and the Rebel Alliance must be considered. Do you have an answer for this?

You might think I'm just arguing semantics, but to me, the devil is in the details. You might not like it, but that's poor justification for claiming it doesn't matter.

8 hours ago, GrimmyV said:

Lothal was in the outer rim, Tarkin’s territory. It’s such a huge territory that he needs to be a Grand Moff to control it, not just a Moff.

The Political (New) Order

Grand Moff - Controlled Over Sectors/Priority Over Sectors and answered to The Emperor alone.

Each Grand Moff had a few hundred Sectors and thousands of systems that answered to them. Over Sector Outer being the largest of these.

Moff - Administered Sectors and answered to Imperial Advisors and later Grand Moffs.

(A Moff would still be Govenor of a favored planet if he wished.)

Regional Governors - Controlled Systems and answered to their respective Moff

Planetary Governors - Controlled Important/Priotiy Planets and answered to their Moff

Planetary Prefect - Administered less important worlds like Tatooine and answered to their Moff or Regional Govenor

In both older Canon and new Disney Canon, Grand Moff Tarkin was the first one to hold that rank and was considered the ‘First among equals’ among the Grand Moffs. He would enter into other Sectors with impunity.

When The Imperial Sourcebook was being created in 1988/1989, Moff Jerjerrod was going to be made into a Commander Moff, a rank below a traditional Moff who would command Battle Stations, Torpedo Spheres and other ‘special projects,’ but would not have significant political power.

You actually hear the title in the Radio Drama and in the audio books for Return of the Jedi , but the rank never made it into the book or Canon.

I don't just remove content from my headcanon, but in my headcanon, Star Destroyers are formidable warships and stormtroopers are actually effective soldiers. The good guys just have to win.

2 hours ago, Imperial Advisor Arem Heshvaun said:

Moff Jerjerrod was going to be made into a Commander Moff, a rank below a traditional Moff who would command Battle Stations, Torpedo Spheres and other ‘special projects,’ but would not have significant political power.

Nah, everyone in RotJ was a Commander, thanks to the rank badge gaff. Just another reason that movie RANKS below the rest of the trilogy.

36 minutes ago, GrimmyV said:

Nah, everyone in RotJ was a Commander, thanks to the rank badge gaff. Just another reason that movie RANKS below the rest of the trilogy.

The rank plaque of three reds and three blues is actually analogues to Imperial Army Colonel and Imperial Navy Captain, rather than Commander. And can be extrapolated to Colonel in the ISB.

The RotJ rank badge gaff was a huge disappointment though, as that would have help codify ranks in Canon.

Is there currently a "canon" rank system?