6 hours ago, mithril2098 said:

as far as Ashoka goes, remember that Ashoka is not a Jedi. she left the order, became something else. she is a Force user, but not a Jedi. Luke is the last Jedi.. but no one is claiming he was the only force user. it is possible that Ashoka did help train Luke. or it is possible that she trained other force users during that time, that her students went on to be some of Luke's students at the new Jedi Academy.

I never said she was, nor that her being a jedi or not is a problem. What is a problem is her not taking interest in the son of Anakin Skywalker, the son who became one of the if not the most famous hero of the Rebellion - an organisation that she also was part of for a very long time.

Personally, I don't care about the "no, there is another one" by Yoda, at all, because it can be understood in various ways. A simple "there is another one with the potential to defeat Vader/the Empire" is enough to explain it, and it's one possible meaning. I do not mind if they change the meaning behind already uttered statements.

But I do mind if they just introduce something entirely new, open up huge plot holes and then don't fill them. That last part is still possible of course, but the first two are already there.

7 hours ago, mithril2098 said:

and lets face it.. Lothal was not much of a victory. sure they kicked the Empire off the world.. but all they could do was cower under the planetary shield and make efforts to put the factories back into some degree of operation to build weapons. worlds rising up against the empire would have been fairly common. in the case of Lothal the Empire could easily keep lothal's freedom secret.. outwardly make no mention of the events to the larger galaxy, internally put out news it had rebelled and then wiped out. since the Rebel Alliance was not involved, and Lothal's liberation was not part of their Senate-centric strategy, the Rebel Alliance wouldn't be spending much effort to get counter-intel out there for the galaxy to hear.

It shut down the Defender program. How is that not a huge victory for the Rebellion, even if it was technically not by the Rebellion? You mention a "huge facility" on Scarif. I do not know about a huge facility, only the archives. Which is of course important, but I don't believe that all existing copies of these plans were stored there and were lost after the Battle of Scarif.

2 hours ago, SabineKey said:

You may think of it as "convenient and lazy writing" and you have that right, but I disagree and your arguments have yet to prove otherwise.

I think the space whales are, and Ahsoka surviving is. Arguments for Ahsoka partially above. As for space whales: they were mentioned/shown once, sure. I do not remember if "frequency 0" was involved. If it was not then I do not see how not-Ezra being able to summon them from wherever they are (conveniently close enough) with that frequency (conveniently works. That point is dismissed if it was already shown before in a previous episode) and they bring along much larger space whales this time (conveniently large enough to get Stardestroyers away) and fight their way through the blockade (conveniently off screen) to save the rebels. Thrawn has contingency plans. Ezra has a fool's hope. There are not too many ways Thrawn loses. There are many ways Ezra loses. Yet he wins because he has all the luck.

That is definitely something I see as lazy writing.

6 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

It shut down the Defender program. How is that not a huge victory for the Rebellion, even if it was technically not by the Rebellion? You mention a "huge facility" on Scarif. I do not know about a huge facility, only the archives. Which is of course important, but I don't believe that all existing copies of these plans were stored there and were lost after the Battle of Scarif.

Heh - the TIE Defender plant on Lothal.

I mean...it's been running, and making them, so...yeah, that's cool. But Lothal rebels, like Mandalore and various other systems, and the plant stops production.

*shrugs*

Whatever

We've still got the details of the factory, easy enough to be rebuilt, as well as the plans for the fighter itself - safe and secure ...only a single copy retained...on our impregnable data vault on Scarif. No problem! Lothal down, who cares, we'll just start production somewhere else with those files...

7 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I never said she was, nor that her being a jedi or not is a problem. What is a problem is her not taking interest in the son of Anakin Skywalker, the son who became one of the if not the most famous hero of the Rebellion - an organisation that she also was part of for a very long time.

Personally, I don't care about the "no, there is another one" by Yoda, at all, because it can be understood in various ways. A simple "there is another one with the potential to defeat Vader/the Empire" is enough to explain it, and it's one possible meaning. I do not mind if they change the meaning behind already uttered statements.

But I do mind if they just introduce something entirely new, open up huge plot holes and then don't fill them. That last part is still possible of course, but the first two are already there.

Here's a concept though.

we don't know when Ashoka was returned, Was it the same portal? Seems she came back at a different location to the fight with vader... so when was she returned? For all the viewer knows it could have been after ROTJ.........

1 hour ago, eMeM said:

I ******* hate Semantic Wars.

That's fair. But keep in mind that it's kind of a large part of Star Wars itself.

Obi-Wan's entire "From a certain point of view" speech is basically him saying, "I manipulate events and people through the use of semantics."

Likewise you can apply that to what Yoda said as being true "from a certain point of view".

54 minutes ago, Herowannabe said:

Also, it amuses me that so many people are irked by the Empire being defeated by Space Whales (shouldn't we actually be calling them Space Squids? They're more squid-like than whale like...), yet we all swallow this without a second thought:

That's some severe revisionist history there if you think everyone was okay with the Ewoks.

33 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

You speak out against focusing on strict definitions, yet complain that common sense and context are being abandoned? How is going by what characters have said themselves ignoring context?

The context is that Ahsoka is a Jedi-trained woman following the Jedi code and Jedi values, and a one-liner quip doesn't change that.

Lothal wasn't liberated by the Alliance to Restore the Republic, no, it was liberated by a cell being a part of the Alliance, and definitely by Rebels.

4 minutes ago, DarthEnderX said:

That's some sever revisionist history there if you think everyone was okay with the Ewoks.

Fair point. I’ll edit my post and tweak what I said.

4 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I think the space whales are, and Ahsoka surviving is. Arguments for Ahsoka partially above. As for space whales: they were mentioned/shown once, sure. I do not remember if "frequency 0" was involved. If it was not then I do not see how not-Ezra being able to summon them from wherever they are (conveniently close enough) with that frequency (conveniently works. That point is dismissed if it was already shown before in a previous episode) and they bring along much larger space whales this time (conveniently large enough to get Stardestroyers away) and fight their way through the blockade (conveniently off screen) to save the rebels. Thrawn has contingency plans. Ezra has a fool's hope. There are not too many ways Thrawn loses. There are many ways Ezra loses. Yet he wins because he has all the luck.

That is definitely something I see as lazy writing.

I'll give you spaces whales. While I think there are ways to explain their involvement and power, such explanations were not offered. However, I must agree with @Herowannabe 's observation that if the whales are lazy, so are ewoks. Such lazy writing is par for the course.

as for Ashoka, I think we are getting ahead of ourselves. We still don't know what happened between seeing her back on Malchor and meeting up with Sabine on Lothal after Return of the Jedi. How long did it take for her to get off Malchor? She's sporting a new outfit and staff, what does this mean? Until we have those answers, I think it is premature to say she took no interest in Luke, that her surviving is a plot hole, or her placing priority on find Ezra. Remember, part of this final season has been about letting go of the past to protect what is here and now. If Ashoka saw that Luke was in a good place, wouldn't it make more sense to let go of him and go after the more immediate problem of her missing friend who is still missing and likely in need of help?

3 minutes ago, eMeM said:

The context is that Ahsoka is a Jedi-trained woman following the Jedi code and Jedi values, and a one-liner quip doesn't change that.

Lothal wasn't liberated by the Alliance to Restore the Republic, no, it was liberated by a cell being a part of the Alliance, and definitely by Rebels.

Yet she was thrown out by the Jedi, and did not rejoin them when offered. It's a bit like stepping down as a priest. You still know the sacred traditions and skills, but your claim to the title is gone. That is all context from not just Rebels, but from Clone Wars as well.

Lothal wasn't an officially sanctioned mission and the goal of the "cell" wasn't to restore the Republic. What happened on Lothal was a rogue op looking to rid one world, not the Galaxy, of the Empire. Saw was once part of the allience, yet he went his own way, continuing to rebel without being part of the Alliance. Another piece of context.

You might say this is just using strict definitions, but this is all context. You also mentioned common sense. It seems you are using the "if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is a duck" reasoning of common sense. However, the context of the situation (i.e. Star Wars lore) shows us plenty of examples of duck like behavior from non-ducks.

23 minutes ago, Ralgon said:

Here's a concept though.

we don't know when Ashoka was returned, Was it the same portal? Seems she came back at a different location to the fight with vader... so when was she returned? For all the viewer knows it could have been after ROTJ.........

I know. You‘ll see that I made that point myself on the previous page, I think the 3rd post. Even after, that she should take even more interest in Luke. Of course we just didn‘t see that yet, but we might. I also clearly said I‘ll be fine with it once that hole is closed.

6 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

However, I must agree with @Herowannabe 's observation that if the whales are lazy, so are ewoks. Such lazy writing is par for the course.

I disagree for three reasons. First, the Ewoks easily took out the rebels, too. That established that they are at least some capable. Second, they served mainly as distraction, the Rebels (including that BAMF Rex!) did most of the work. Third, the Ewoks suffered many losses.

The whales were not previously shown to take out large ships, they did all the work, and had no losses.

7 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

as for Ashoka, I think we are getting ahead of ourselves. We still don't know what happened between seeing her back on Malchor and meeting up with Sabine on Lothal after Return of the Jedi.

I agree. And it even has some merit that they already planted that seed in official screen canon. My criticism might be unfair because I essentially dislike that Filoni had not more influence to drop Ahsoka‘s name in the context of Luke. That would be enough. Maybe he wanted to and was denied.

29 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Heh - the TIE Defender plant on Lothal.

I mean...it's been running, and making them, so...yeah, that's cool. But Lothal rebels, like Mandalore and various other systems, and the plant stops production.

*shrugs*

Whatever

We've still got the details of the factory, easy enough to be rebuilt, as well as the plans for the fighter itself - safe and secure ...only a single copy retained...on our impregnable data vault on Scarif. No problem! Lothal down, who cares, we'll just start production somewhere else with those files...

While the program could theoretically be restarted, the victory on Lothal factually ended it right then and there.

Battle of Yavin was also a victory, even if the Emprie was already building the second Death Star.

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I know. You‘ll see that I made that point myself on the previous page, I think the 3rd post. Even after, that she should take even more interest in Luke. Of course we just didn‘t see that yet, but we might. I also clearly said I‘ll be fine with it once that hole is closed.

I disagree for three reasons. First, the Ewoks easily took out the rebels, too. That established that they are at least some capable. Second, they served mainly as distraction, the Rebels (including that BAMF Rex!) did most of the work. Third, the Ewoks suffered many losses.

The whales were not previously shown to take out large ships, they did all the work, and had no losses.

I agree. And it even has some merit that they already planted that seed in official screen canon. My criticism might be unfair because I essentially dislike that Filoni had not more influence to drop Ahsoka‘s name in the context of Luke. That would be enough. Maybe he wanted to and was denied.

First: Ambush against a scouting party of two humans, two droids, and one Wookiee rather than the entire Rebel strike force. Also, I doubt it would have been so successful if Luke hadn't been telling the others to give up their weapons. While the attack on the Empire started as an ambush, it quickly devolved into an all out fight.

Second and Third points are solid. Heh, Rex definitely tips the odds.

In the end, there is a chance that the whole question of Luke and Ashoka could be bungled and left a huge hole. But with so many means to fill that hole (books, comic books, shows, movies, video games, etc), and not knowing what's already been planned, patience does seem to be a virtue.

25 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Until we have those answers, I think it is premature to say she took no interest in Luke, that her surviving is a plot hole, or her placing priority on find Ezra. Remember, part of this final season has been about letting go of the past to protect what is here and now. If Ashoka saw that Luke was in a good place, wouldn't it make more sense to let go of him and go after the more immediate problem of her missing friend who is still missing and likely in need of help?

Indeed. For that matter, she might well have been warned off; Old Ben in Twin Suns is essentially telling people to leave him alone and not draw attention to him (and by default, luke).

I'm not expecting to see her in the Obiwan movie, but it's not impossible...

14 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

While the program could theoretically be restarted, the victory on Lothal factually ended it right then and there.

This. There was already pressure to shut down the programme and redirect the funds to the Death Star(s). This wouldn't have been helped by the obsession of most of the empire with superweapons rather than just good quality 'conventional' forces - Thrawn and Tagge being the only real 'troops before toys' advocates, and Thrawn essentially having to go make a personal appeal to the emperor to try and keep the TIE/x7 programme going.

After the Lothal revolt kind of shut the programme down by default, and the combat losses where detractors could point to Defenders not being as much of a force multiplier as promised (Vult Skerris being beaten twice in a TIE defender by 'lesser' fighters and two defenders being taken out by the Ghost at the sensor array), plus the Rebels having stolen data from the TIE/DE prototype's computer meaning the 'defender elite' would lose a lot of it's impact, it wouldn't take much political pressure to keep it shut down. And, as noted, there's a fair chance that backups of the defender's design were held at Scarif.

2 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

First: Ambush against a scouting party of two humans, two droids, and one Wookiee rather than the entire Rebel strike force. Also, I doubt it would have been so successful if Luke hadn't been telling the others to give up their weapons. While the attack on the Empire started as an ambush, it quickly devolved into an all out fight.

Second and Third points are solid. Heh, Rex definitely tips the odds.

In the end, there is a chance that the whole question of Luke and Ashoka could be bungled and left a huge hole. But with so many means to fill that hole (books, comic books, shows, movies, video games, etc), and not knowing what's already been planned, patience does seem to be a virtue.

I could have emphasized more:

Filoni‘s love for wolves slightly bothers me, but whatever, it fit the story.

The opened plot hole with Ahsoka bothers me, but that will be filled (I hope!).

The space whales were MaryPoppinsLeia level stupid!

5 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I could have emphasized more:

Filoni‘s love for wolves slightly bothers me, but whatever, it fit the story.

The opened plot hole with Ahsoka bothers me, but that will be filled (I hope!).

The space whales were MaryPoppinsLeia level stupid!

And I got that. I count ewoks on that level too. Especially knowing what was originally planned.

I guess i'm trying to dissuade a "guilty until proven innocent" mind set when it comes to Ashoka. Yes, there is a potential problem with her surviving, but to me, that problem existed the moment she was created to be Anakin's apprentice. I felt for sure she had to die before episode 3, yet a solution was made that allowed her to live, have her out of the way for episode 3, as well as add further context to Anakin's growing distrust of the Jedi. I'm even good with her not getting mentioned in Episode 3. It's probably still a sore spot for Anakin, thus something many would like to keep buried for now. They've managed to use her as an asset to the greater narrative before, and I have yet to see at least with Filoni's end of things indications that they can't do it again.

22 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Indeed. For that matter, she might well have been warned off; Old Ben in Twin Suns is essentially telling people to leave him alone and not draw attention to him (and by default, luke).

I'm not expecting to see her in the Obiwan movie, but it's not impossible...

Maybe. Man, seeing her in life action would be awesome.

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

It shut down the Defender program. How is that not a huge victory for the Rebellion, even if it was technically not by the Rebellion?

But did the empire really consider that a defeat? From Rogue One and the conversations between Thrawn and Tarkin, we get some idea of how the prestige military programs were run. If the finished program was shown to be a success, the loss would surely be considered a defeat, but until then it's only one officer's tool to rise in power and prestige. We learn about the Death Star and the TIE Defender program. How many failed programs do you imagine we never hear about`?

Double post

3 hours ago, SabineKey said:

Maybe. Man, seeing her in life action would be awesome.

Part of the reason Ahsoka is probably still around is because of sentimentality that Filoni has for that (which I understand, she's awesome). The upside of that means there's no way, IMO, that Filoni isn't going to fill in those blanks at some point. (I mean, it could be done in a book by someone else but I think we're going to see it on screen)

I genuinely think the next series is about Sabine and Ahsoka and we'll learn about what Ahsoka's been up to in the "lost" years.

Weirdly enough I was not really annoyed at all by Ahsoka being alive at the end. It's weird because when she appeared at the season end of whichever season it was I actually groaned out loud because I goddamn hated Clone Wars and to this day have never been able to get past it (even selectively watching 'good' episodes).

Her duel with Vader and the episodes leading up to that were some of the best TV I've seen in a while, and best Star Wars come to that.

5 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I could have emphasized more:

Filoni‘s love for wolves slightly bothers me , but whatever, it fit the story.

The opened plot hole with Ahsoka bothers me, but that will be filled (I hope!).

The space whales were MaryPoppinsLeia level stupid!

You know, I feel the need to say this.

Filoni's absolute obsession with Wolves, I wonder about.

I'm a furry, and Filoni's obsession with wolves leaves me wondering if he's quite alright.

At some point you gotta sit back and go, "Dude... Dude, maybe... Like, stop..? Are you okay? You're great as a writer and all but dude like, your wolf thing... Do you need to talk to somebody?"

To be honest, I feel the same way about crows, bees, reptiles and other species who's behaviour I've modelled the aliens I've written on and I'm not-

...

Oh my God

Accepting space whales because of the ewoks already existing is a terrible reason.

To quote Thrawn.

"Do you know the difference between an error and a mistake, Ensign?" 'No, sir.' "Anyone can make an error, Ensign. But that error doesn't become a mistake until you refuse to correct it."

Point being the ewoks were already a massive error in the stortelling of Star Wars. Mocked almost everytime Endor was mentioned in the EU.

So why do that again?

It's not anything to do with them being cute teddy bears. Its how onesidedly they curbstomped the Emperor's elite legion of Stormtroopers. It's how unearned their victory is in the story.

If we saw an actual battle, with losses on both sides (also scratch the oddly perfectly placed logs crushing AT-STs), and maybe the Ewoks were given blasters, the Ewoks would be tolerable. If the Ewoks actions were ancillary to the Rebels fighting on Endor rather then the centerpiece it would have worked so much better.

~

The whales came not as a result of the force but that kid calling them over the radio. They attack the Empire of their own free will.

So you lose the symbolism that the force beat Thrawn, which wouldve been pretty cool.

So the whales, like the ewoks must be seen as non force affiliated combatants. Thus their victory is unearned because they curbstomped an Elite Imperial Fleet with zero harm to themselves like they were gods.

That's no longer an error thats a mistake. Thats not learning the errors of the past.

Not to mention they're the Eagles from Lord of the Rings.

This wasn't a clever solution this was Filoni ripping off Tolkein.

This was an attempt to cap the theme of nature overcoming technology, as it was in Lord of the Rings, in the laziest way.

If you don't believe me there's a interview where Filoni discusses how Tolkein was a big inspiration to him.

8 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I agree. And it even has some merit that they already planted that seed in official screen canon

What is this seed you speak of?

For those that are wondering when/how we'll find out where the Purgill took Thrawn and Ezra. I'm reading the Thrawn novel right now. The end of the book takes place during season 1 of Rebels. In fact Govenor Pryce is asked about the insurgency on Lothal. She replies that Admiral Konstantine is handling it. I have a feeling that what happened to both Thrawn and Ezra will be revealed in that series of books.

Double post.

‘We are, what they grow beyond.’