1 hour ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Xanderf buddy think about this: Wouldn't we have heard about something like this before? Clearly this portal is no longer accessible, like, at all- and even if it was... Definitely not by here. But what's more?

What, is Ezra clairvoyant now? What does he know about Hosnian Prime? The Death Star? Alderaan, Starkiller Base. How can a child know where to pinpoint the start of a war, or the galactic civil war? He barely even understands these things.

All Ezra is, is a scared young man who was still coming to grips with losing a second father. Also, I don't want to be like this but Ahsoka never died and that was never, ever in the cards either. Ahsoka was intended to live. We saw both Vader and Ahsoka leaving Malachor, wounded from the battle.

But of course, (not digging at you here) because reasons, only Ahsoka's was supposed to be allegorical.

Thank you.

1 hour ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Xanderf buddy think about this: Wouldn't we have heard about something like this before? Clearly this portal is no longer accessible, like, at all- and even if it was... Definitely not by here. But what's more?

What, is Ezra clairvoyant now? What does he know about Hosnian Prime? The Death Star? Alderaan, Starkiller Base. How can a child know where to pinpoint the start of a war, or the galactic civil war? He barely even understands these things.

All Ezra is, is a scared young man who was still coming to grips with losing a second father.

He doesn't need to be clairvoyant - he's in a realm where time has no meaning, he could literally see those events as easily as he saw anything else. And in any case, he definitely knew about the Clone Wars and Order 66 - it's hardly a leap to think "let's warn the Jedi council about this whole thing".

It's just a silly idea that adds nothing to the story. But, then,

.

Ezra from the moment he went into the portal and until he met the birdie he had no idea what the place really was. After that he learned what the place has the potential to do and looked for a door to save Kanan. After he let go of his master old Palpe showed up and well... I mean a Sith lord who is stronger than Vader, what coud he do?

So if Ezra had more time to look around or think on what the place could do then maybe he could change around the timeline. Thing is like Kanan the first thoughts on things to fix would be recent events or something about people close to him like his parents. He wasn't involved in the Clone Wars like Kanan or Ahsoka or like Obi-wan or Yoda who knew more details about everything.

Another issue we see is that regardless of what that place is capable of, it isn't the right thing to do. How many books, movies, or anything that involves time travel truly makes it easy and with no consequence? A Jedi in my opinion shouldn't have that kind of power, Ezra has dabbled in the dark side and who is to say that place wouldn't corrupt him?

2 hours ago, Odanan said:

You guys have been speculating for nothing and ignoring denying the image of her alive, walking away. Anyway, what's stopping you guys from saying she is still dead? She ended in the very same place...

Basically. But she's been alive since Season 2's ending, honestly.

58 minutes ago, Celestial Lizards said:

That voice... It's so good.

Well yeah, I'd expect Ian McDiarmid to be able to to his pivotal character, you know?

What a strange pair of episodes. Somehow Hera has to get off that rock to participate in Scarif. I am curious how it will end

2 hours ago, Odanan said:

You guys have been speculating for nothing and ignoring denying the image of her alive, walking away. Anyway, what's stopping you guys from saying she is still dead? She ended in the very same place...

Tell me, what ships do you want to see in wave 15?

Doesn't matter, FFG will give us whatever they decide come up with, your speculation is stupid and a waste of time.

OR

We could have a civil discussion about what we want to see in wave 15. Might be right, might be wrong. who knows? It's fun to talk about star wars.

Same thing with her fate. We didn't know at the time whether the ending scene was symbolic or a metaphor or literally exactly as happened. (turns out it was the latter. Cool.). No use in putting people down for their theories just because yours was right.

And for the record I always thought she was alive. Filoni wouldn't kill her off like that and not show us.

If you don't like speculating, maybe you should stay out of this thread for your own sanity.

1 hour ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Well yeah, I'd expect Ian McDiarmid to be able to to his pivotal character, you know?

Beat me to it.

Can we talk about the guy incharge of the imperial excavation? (I can't remember or find his name.) I really liked his character, thought he was a great antagonist. It's also interesting to actually see one of palpatines acolytles on screen.

The Dark Side Ritual performed by Darth Sidious and Count Dooku in the last episode of the Clone Wars is likely the same one The Emperor Palpatine used in Rebels.

Wow, I never ever thought we'd ever see things in star wars that were worse than jar jar. I mean now we have magic space wolves that you can ride through hyperspace and take you to a temple with moving painting that open a portal to a new dimension where not only can you see the past but can completely alter it and pull people from the past into the new dimension with you thanks to portals. So glad star wars has this time travelling now. Thanks alot star wars rebels...

19 minutes ago, AtomicFryingPan said:

Wow, I never ever thought we'd ever see things in star wars that were worse than jar jar. I mean now we have magic space wolves that you can ride through hyperspace and take you to a temple with moving painting that open a portal to a new dimension where not only can you see the past but can completely alter it and pull people from the past into the new dimension with you thanks to portals. So glad star wars has this time travelling now. Thanks alot star wars rebels...

On 11/14/2014 at 5:41 PM, Captain Lackwit said:

If you are here to complain about the show and the contents therein with little basis in actual criticism, please turn around and do not come back.
__________________________________________________________________________________

7 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

So am I. I really think I'm more excited about this than anything else in the finale.

How is Zahn ruining the character? He's taken the change in canon to slightly change the backstory but overall has presented an interesting and dynamic character very similar to what we've seen since Heir to the Empire . His book is by far the best of the Disney canon books.

Heir to the Empire? No, this is Outbound Flight Thrawn. IMO the Rebels writers did a perfect job capturing Thrawn as he appeared in the original novels, and Zahn is just doing what he was always doing, excusing and whitewashing chracters he grew too attached to. He is too afraid to write bad guys, so after a few novels it turns out his characters were secretly good guys, or were forced to do something bad, or were acting for greater good and were right the whole time etc. It happened with both of his most famous characters, Thrawn and Mara, but this time he is ruining not only his work but also the fantastic portrayal of Thrawn in the show, which saddens me to no end.

EDIT @up

I don't think complaining about introducing ******* time travel to the story can be qualified as having "little basis in actual criticism" .

9 hours ago, eMeM said:

I'd also want Thrawn to die simply to not let Zahn ruin the character any further than he already has with his book, but I doubt it will happen.

Didn't Zahn create the character? Theoretically, wouldn't anything Zahn said about him be fairly accurate?

The voices heard in ‘A World Between Worlds’

So I actually liked how they handled the time-travel thing, by immediately showing how it isn't just a fix-all to every problem/situation. You can't rescue Kanan because then he can't save you and you wouldn't rescue him...etc.

Using Order 66 as an example, lets say that Palps doesn't show up and Ezra does try this and saves some of the Jedi...well then Caleb Dume never has to leave his Master, never goes on the run and doesn't meet Hera and therefore no Ezra at the future to change the past in the first place. Even if the change sticks, and the Jedi are left with a choice to either confront Palpatine (didn't work out so well with a large group the first time and he might have a fall back to activate Order 66 anyway) or let the Seperatists win the war (and Palp wins because he's controlling Dooku). The Order let itself become clouded and almost corrupt so time travel isn't enough to save it.

The Hosnian system, well I still think in the light of TLJ and the FO fleet just walking through the Resistance with a fraction of its power Starkiller Base is a ridiculous idea (even more so then it was before), but say you tried to warn someone...wasn't that exactly what Leia was trying to do? You'd probably get called a Resistance war monger and ignored like she was and without Finn and his super-janitoring skills around then a Resistance attack likely fails.

But also, yeah I think the portal system is shut off, at least from Lothal. Maybe there are other access points that Ezra needs to leave and secure? Would be a good way to end his story and remove him from the main universe (beyond the outer rim maybe?).

22 minutes ago, GreenLantern1138 said:

Didn't Zahn create the character? Theoretically, wouldn't anything Zahn said about him be fairly accurate?

He did just that.

A while it is widely known he created Mara Jade, Talon Kardde, the Noghri race, the Ysalamiri and the background for the Bothan culture and psyche, he actually named Coruscant the capital of the Galaxy.

It was a name taken from a list of planets Lucas Films and West End Games had, but never developed.

Previous to this capital planet was known as The Imperial Center in source books, and Had Abbadon in Revenge of the Jedi early drafts before the switch over to Return of the Jedi .

36 minutes ago, GreenLantern1138 said:

Didn't Zahn create the character? Theoretically, wouldn't anything Zahn said about him be fairly accurate?

He changed his mind between the books, significantly altering the character. If Lucas filmed episode VII and "revealed" that Luke was secretly a gungan the whole time I imagine people would be upset, but he is the creator of the character, so it would be "fairly accurate". Theoretically.

7 hours ago, FlyingAnchors said:

Tell me, what ships do you want to see in wave 15?

Doesn't matter, FFG will give us whatever they decide come up with, your speculation is stupid and a waste of time.

OR

We could have a civil discussion about what we want to see in wave 15. Might be right, might be wrong. who knows? It's fun to talk about star wars.

Same thing with her fate. We didn't know at the time whether the ending scene was symbolic or a metaphor or literally exactly as happened. (turns out it was the latter. Cool.). No use in putting people down for their theories just because yours was right.

And for the record I always thought she was alive. Filoni wouldn't kill her off like that and not show us.

If you don't like speculating, maybe you should stay out of this thread for your own sanity.

The discussion was not speculation, but interpretation of a scene. Speculation is a different thing, and I love it.

5 hours ago, eMeM said:

Heir to the Empire? No, this is Outbound Flight Thrawn. IMO the Rebels writers did a perfect job capturing Thrawn as he appeared in the original novels, and Zahn is just doing what he was always doing, excusing and whitewashing chracters he grew too attached to. He is too afraid to write bad guys, so after a few novels it turns out his characters were secretly good guys, or were forced to do something bad, or were acting for greater good and were right the whole time etc. It happened with both of his most famous characters, Thrawn and Mara, but this time he is ruining not only his work but also the fantastic portrayal of Thrawn in the show, which saddens me to no end.

1

But, really, what has changed? In the original books, we see nothing from Thrawn's point of view. Everything comes from Pellaeon's POV, and that colors how we perceive him. He's ruthless, but he never came off as evil (making a deal with C'baoth for Leia's kids seems about as evil as he comes, and that, in the context of Outbound Flight, makes a lot of sense) In the later books, we see him through the eyes of other characters, and a more complex version of Thrawn develops. That builds to Outbound Flight, and in turn, the Thrawn novel.

Thrawn wasn't supposed to be "evil" in the original books. He's the "bad guy," sure, but he's not supposed to be a mustache-twirling villain like Rebels has tried to portray him at times. Zahn's portrayal of him has evolved over time, but that's a good thing, not bad, and stays consistent with his character.

5 hours ago, eMeM said:

EDIT @up

I don't think complaining about introducing ******* time travel to the story can be qualified as having "little basis in actual criticism" .

2

Agreed. Unless I missed the "warning, echo chamber" sign on my way in, complaining about the use of time travel is a fair criticism of the show.

3 hours ago, GreenLantern1138 said:

Didn't Zahn create the character? Theoretically, wouldn't anything Zahn said about him be fairly accurate?

Exactly. Just because people took him one way doesn't mean the author is bound to do the same, unless he blatantly contradicts something from his earliest appearance. Haven't seen that yet.

2 hours ago, eMeM said:

He changed his mind between the books, significantly altering the character. If Lucas filmed episode VII and "revealed" that Luke was secretly a gungan the whole time I imagine people would be upset, but he is the creator of the character, so it would be "fairly accurate". Theoretically.

But he hasn't significantly altered Thrawn's character. He's a genius tactician, brutally efficient, and ruthless that joined the Empire and fought the Rebellion, not for personal gain, but to bring order to the galaxy. Adding motivations to him like fear an outside threat (be it the Vong, Snoke, the True Sith, or a rampaging Mouse) only adds to his character.

Really, a more apt comparison to your complaints would be Darth Vader, and how finding out that he was Luke's father "significantly altered" the character, and his redemption by Luke was a "whitewashing" because Lucas became too attached to him.

13 hours ago, eMeM said:

On the other hand it leaves a nice opportunity to just erase the whole sequel era

That's a funny way to spell prequel.

In TTT he's ruthless, evil, yet still a mastermind.

Evil things he's done? Off top of my head, manipulating the entire spiecies to make them basically slaves, brutally murdering own subordinates for show.

But apparently we can't have a character that's both evil and competent, Palpatine being the notable exception.

Late Thrawn always acts for the greater good, and feels sad when he has to something bad in order to achieve his noble goal.

In Rebels we are introduced to Thrawn with a mention of one of his operations being effective yet extremely brutal to the population. Our blue friend doesn't try to deny anything, and Pryce enforces the ruthless image with her comment about acceptable casualities. He also seems pretty devoted to the Emperor.

Why do you think they introduced him this way? What was the point of the dialogue?

Then Zahn goes full late Zahn to make Thrawn the good guy, he was doing everything he could to avoid casualities, it's the other Imperials who are to blame, he didn't do nothin! A complete 180, going full Rian Johnson on Rebels just so that his favourite Gary Stu can't be tainted with a single sin. He even stands up to the Emperor and not only doesn't lose his life, he doesn't even lose his job.

13 hours ago, Odanan said:

You guys have been speculating for nothing and ignoring denying the image of her alive, walking away. Anyway, what's stopping you guys from saying she is still dead? She ended in the very same place...

I thought it was ambiguous enough that it could have been metaphorical.

It was definitely and deliberately ambiguous. As it happens, with the new context it's a nice little bit of foreshadowing(ish) that shows Filoni had this planned all along. At the time there didn't seem to be a plausible way for Ahsoka to survive, and this was not an accident. Given Ahsoka had to be chronosphered out of combat by a third party I'm not going to feel too bad for making an incorrect inference there =P

Which makes it a bit more palatable.

Also, Filoni loves stirring up fan theories and speculation.

Someone noted that Kanan may have sent Ezra with some idea that he'd end up saving Ahsoka. Hopefully that means some grander purpose is there, and I'd be very surprised if Filoni hasn't got an idea of what that is.

I think there's a take from this that is helping me rationalising Ahsoka being back despite me thinking earlier her dying to Vader was a good wrap up for her. While dying at the hands of Vader is a solid way to end her overall arc, she realises upon being saved that Anakin is 'gone'. In the same way that Ezra needs to realise that Kanan is gone. Kanan's sacrifice was meaningful; he died to save others. Ahsoka's was arguably more selfish. She was going to die at Vader's hands simply because she didn't want to 'abandon' him again. Basically, her coming back has an interesting narrative arc because it allows her to realise her sacrifice against Vader would have been futile or even petty.

"That's how we're gonna win. Not fighting what we hate, saving what we love."

***

Start of Wild mad rampant speculation time

In fact, given Ezra pulled Ahsoka out just as she was collapsing the temple floor, a small part of me wonder if Ezra inadvertently saved Vader's life. That's nothing but wild speculation on my part, but Ezra definitely seemed to interrupt her mid collapsing the floor. If Ahsoka had finished what she was doing, who knows if Darth would have survived the fall? Vader wasn't destined to die at the hands of Ahsoka, he was destined to die saving Luke and destroying the Sith.

End of Wild mad rampant speculation time

***

FWIW on the Thrawn thing I'm very reluctant about this characterisation of Thrawn as "not actually that bad a dude". He's knowingly working for evil space fascists and clearly revels in it. He's either Lawful Stupid (which I find impossible to conceive for a character who shows such an interest in political nuance) or he's evil.

Just because he doesn't choke out his subordinates for accidentally burning the toast that doesn't make him a dove. He's just a people person.

Thawn secretly being a "good dude at heart" diminishes what makes him an interesting villain. He's fascinating because he is a villain but operates outside of the typical 'moustache twirling villain' archetype that most Star Wars villains operate in. Kylo operates outside this and works because he's deluded himself into repressing his better nature for fear of getting further hurt by "the light side" of the force. Vader is kinda similar just not realised quite as well.

Thrawn is interesting because he's one of the few actually cynical villains we've come across in Star Wars. He has interest in art and culture, but as much because it's another weapon. He respects his foes but that's because he aspires to learn from them and about them. He rewards his subordinates because he sees the carrot as a part of his arsenal as well as a stick. I'll bet he doesn't object to the Death Star because it's morally wrong: he'll object because it's inefficient.

Going down the "he's secretly actually a really nice dude" road defangs one of the most interesting things about Thrawn. He's a ruthless cynic. He's an evil version of Sherlock Holmes and that's why he's interesting. He's smart, and he's smart enough to utilise people as tools in a way that most other Imperials lacked the vision to do. That is a horrifying villain. You know where you stand with the Emperor or Vader or Tarkin. You don't know where you stand with Thrawn and that's exactly where he wants you to be.

So based off the trailer for next week I have a theory and I wonder if anyone can confirm.

We know the Imperial facility is launching off-world most likely due to the glassing of the planet.

Well there's a clip where Ezra and crew are in a building and what looks like Thrawn's Star Destroyer squaring up with them, then Ezra uses the force.

Is Ezra going to Force Unleashed the Chimaera into the Imperial Headquarters?

14 hours ago, eMeM said:

I'd also want Thrawn to die simply to not let Zahn ruin the character any further than he already has with his book, but I doubt it will happen.

EDIT: I see many people have responded to this. How'd he ruin the character?

I have to agree with @Ktan , and I find it bizarre so many are misconstruing Thrawn as a good guy?

Thrawn is utilizing an authoritative, evil regime to further his own interests. His whole plan is to strengthen the Empire. He's utterly ruthless and willing to mercilessly stamp out any who get in his way. He may not be a slaver or lining people up and shooting them in the back but Thrawn is an awful person through and through in a way that feels more nuanced now then he did in the Thrawn Trilogy.

The only arguably good person from the new Thrawn book is Eli Vanto.

I'll admit, most of what I know about Thrawn is via Rebels, lore overviews/wikis and cultural osmosis. That's just always been my read of the character. (Heck, it's a reading I love so much I lifted a lot of it for one of my own characters. But then Zahn clearly stole the idea of Thrawn from Sherlock Holmes, so I think I'm licensed to call it an 'homage' =P)

I am really hoping that the finale is as dark as that trailer implies.

So, full disclosure I am not a fan of how some series *cough* Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows *cough* , upped the stakes by killing a load of (minor) characters off towards the end. However, Rogue One did it very well and here it will be a bigger gut punch because we've really had time to connect to these characters, even the minor ones. It would also be thematically appropriate for quite a few of the characters.

I don't want to see Kallus go, for example, but he's probably one of the first ones I'd kill off. Especially if that's somehow worked together with Zeb. I think Ezra's due an "epic sacrifice" moment for a number of reasons.

Only Hera and Chopper are safe and honestly that's kind of exciting to me in a perverse way.