4 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

1: This New Republic has done nothing for the galaxy it sought to save before it was an official government. I can well and truly say that I hate it, and that the soul of The Rebellion never occupied it, but did occupy The Resistance. But I always did ask, "Why restore something so horribly flawed?" to begin with? It's not like democracy on the scale of The Republic really works in space anyway when you really think about it.

...And I say that as a very freedom-positive individual!

Not to go wandering down the rabbit hole again, but has anyone noticed that Star Wars movies (especially the newer ones) are very anti-Democracy? Yes, they pay lip service to the idea, but we never see a democracy function well. The Old Republic was mired with bureaucracy and was easily taken over by Palps, the Rebellion (from Rouge One) was indecisive about taking action against the Empire, and the Disney New Republic is just a total mess. It immediately developed a bloated bureaucracy, tried to partially disarm during wartime, refused to assist in the liberation of several worlds, failed to exert its control over the entire galaxy, watched as a new threat grew along its borders, and then allowed itself to be taken out in a single alpha-strike. (which I really, really don't understand how you do that) If it wasn't for a handful of main characters "getting stuff done," democracy would have died and stayed dead.

SW bad guys, on the other hand, seem to be large scale effective, small-scale horrible. Their governments are oppressive, but they really can accomplish a lot until they run into plot-armored characters. Palp's firm hand on the Republic built an army and navy from nothing, the Empire did bring law and order to the far fringes of the galaxy, and the First Order rebuilt a military machine from scratch with a starting point of a few ships and a desire for revenge.

If anything, Star Wars tries to sell you on the idea of a benevolent dictatorship or oligarchy, with the main characters ignoring orders/their governments/the "will of the people" and just doing what needs to be done.

8 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

1: This New Republic has done nothing for the galaxy it sought to save before it was an official government. I can well and truly say that I hate it, and that the soul of The Rebellion never occupied it, but did occupy The Resistance. But I always did ask, "Why restore something so horribly flawed?" to begin with? It's not like democracy on the scale of The Republic really works in space anyway when you really think about it.

...And I say that as a very freedom-positive individual!

2: Yes. They absolutely should have killed off Sabine's mother and brother. If they died, Sabine is the cause of their death... And it makes her refusal to use her device to kill what's-his-face even more powerful. But no. We got a wet towel arc instead. Absolutely flaccid pair of episodes, extremely weak start. But the Saw stuff was pretty nifty. If they're trying to show how far things have come with Lothal, though... They aren't doing a very good job. Honestly this just feels like Season 4 of Battlestar Galactica all over again. Strong, escalating first three seasons and uh. Uh... "Our first thought after hearing a song that doesn't exist and coalescing into this room iS OH MY GAWD WE'RE THE CYLONS!?!?!?!??!? "
(Granted. Bear McCreary chose, "All Along The Watchtower" because in the canon this cylon thing has happened before in some form or another, and it will happen again- hence that tagline, "All that has happened before will happen again" but then there's the fact that AATW has never had really any kind of clear starting point. Does it start when we're asking if there's a way out of here? Does it end when the hour is getting late? Or does it begin with the two riders, presumably the joker and the thief, are riding towards wherever they may have ended up? That's exactly why AATW was chosen, for what's happening now has already happened before, but at this point, who can actually say where it all began, or will end?)

3: Yes, the lack of budget has been a clear and present issue... But here I was thinking that like, y'know. They were getting more and more budget. But no, definitely not, which is a crying shame. As for a new series... Yeah, something between RoTJ and TFA. That's genuinely never been done before in this particular style/way so like, **** why not right?

1. To restore peace and freedom to the galaxy, which I guess means leading to a situation with a chicken with its head cut off running across the floor. Yea, the EU's New Republic seemed far more capable. Granted, it was something built up rather than something that acts as a plot device to explain how the First Order wasn't crushed, and how Leia wasn't being fully backed to take out a threat.

2. I'd argue season 1 isn't that great at least for the majority of it, much in the same way that Clone Wars had a rough season 1. But it aslo felt like Season 1 was really kiddy and that with the next few seasons they felt like they were growing it up a bit. This season more so, even if it has been a bit meh with not committing to any actual stakes aside from Kannan being gone but the leak for the episode descriptions and the wolves always going 'Dume/Doom' to him sort of spoil that a little.

3. I really doubt Filoni would ever be given a budget anywhere near what Lucas would give him. If they ever had any issues during Clone Wars or he wanted to make it bigger then Lucas just threw more money at it. Rebels I'm sure has a fixed budget and are likely limited to 3 new assets or the so for each episode. Which means that for a Resistance show they would be as hamstrung as Rebels was, though maybe they could be a little creative and use planet assets from Clone Wars and Rebels to help play with the budget. It might even be a little neat to go back to some of them.

If Disney marketing is anything to go by they would likely have an episode that took place on the planet from Star Wars Land that is being built in Disneyland and Disney World, Bob Iger is really focused on having stuff that makes you think about the parks and going there and when you are there being reminded of that stuff so you buy the shows and movies that places and rides are based on.

3 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

Not to go wandering down the rabbit hole again, but has anyone noticed that Star Wars movies (especially the newer ones) are very anti-Democracy? Yes, they pay lip service to the idea, but we never see a democracy function well. The Old Republic was mired with bureaucracy and was easily taken over by Palps, the Rebellion (from Rouge One) was indecisive about taking action against the Empire, and the Disney New Republic is just a total mess. It immediately developed a bloated bureaucracy, tried to partially disarm during wartime, refused to assist in the liberation of several worlds, failed to exert its control over the entire galaxy, watched as a new threat grew along its borders, and then allowed itself to be taken out in a single alpha-strike. (which I really, really don't understand how you do that) If it wasn't for a handful of main characters "getting stuff done," democracy would have died and stayed dead.

SW bad guys, on the other hand, seem to be large scale effective, small-scale horrible. Their governments are oppressive, but they really can accomplish a lot until they run into plot-armored characters. Palp's firm hand on the Republic built an army and navy from nothing, the Empire did bring law and order to the far fringes of the galaxy, and the First Order rebuilt a military machine from scratch with a starting point of a few ships and a desire for revenge.

If anything, Star Wars tries to sell you on the idea of a benevolent dictatorship or oligarchy, with the main characters ignoring orders/their governments/the "will of the people" and just doing what needs to be done.

You know, I hadn't really thought of that but it is an interesting concept. Heck, Mon Mothma was technically a dictator when they took over until she gave up her powers which led to the mess of a New Republic that we now have. Or well had for all of 3 seconds in TFA before it was wiped out. Arguably, Lucas was probably pulling from rome to an extent or just the concept of someone manipulating the government to get power to explain how Palpatine got to his position of emperor we see him with in the OT.

As for the New Republic, apparently there were planets that were secretly working with the First Order so they just joined the First Order officially after Star Killer Base's attack, and the New Republic ENTIRE fleet was at their capital for some reason so it was completely wiped out and left the others mostly defenseless. I've also heard that no one knows that Starkiller Base was destroyed so someplaces surrendered instead of possibly being destroyed as some kind of example. The real reason though is they just really want to reset the board to Empire vs Rebels with new (Better/More Powerful) characters, because that is what people want, right?

8 hours ago, patox said:

Has it been discussed why Rebels is cutting out after 4 seasons?

Especially with promises of another animated show hot on its heels?

I feel like you answered your own question. A lot of the Rebels people will probably be working on the new show and won't be able to do two shows at once.

4 hours ago, GrimmyV said:

Now that’s some classic Thrawn there.

I agree, but I feel like it's inviting betrayal.

You kind of don't want to give a subordinate the impression that severe punishment is coming before you're around to actually enact the punishment, because it gives them a bunch of time to work against you. Even if he's not ACTUALLY planning to give her a severe punishment.

4 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

Not to go wandering down the rabbit hole again, but has anyone noticed that Star Wars movies (especially the newer ones) are very anti-Democracy? Yes, they pay lip service to the idea, but we never see a democracy function well. The Old Republic was mired with bureaucracy and was easily taken over by Palps, the Rebellion (from Rouge One) was indecisive about taking action against the Empire, and the Disney New Republic is just a total mess. It immediately developed a bloated bureaucracy, tried to partially disarm during wartime, refused to assist in the liberation of several worlds, failed to exert its control over the entire galaxy, watched as a new threat grew along its borders, and then allowed itself to be taken out in a single alpha-strike. (which I really, really don't understand how you do that) If it wasn't for a handful of main characters "getting stuff done," democracy would have died and stayed dead.

SW bad guys, on the other hand, seem to be large scale effective, small-scale horrible. Their governments are oppressive, but they really can accomplish a lot until they run into plot-armored characters. Palp's firm hand on the Republic built an army and navy from nothing, the Empire did bring law and order to the far fringes of the galaxy, and the First Order rebuilt a military machine from scratch with a starting point of a few ships and a desire for revenge.

If anything, Star Wars tries to sell you on the idea of a benevolent dictatorship or oligarchy , with the main characters ignoring orders/their governments/the "will of the people" and just doing what needs to be done.

I mean given Star Wars has literally always been about fighting that, it really doesn't.

Also, we may never see democracy function well in Star Wars. When you add too many states for it to comfortably manage, it's an issue. But the reason The Empire seems to work on such a grand scale is...

Well, because it's simple. Base directives come from one dud e in control of everything, then it goes down a fractal of fairly well kept military bureaucracy, which gets suitably altered around and made to fit the individual situation. The Empire works well because it's a single entity, but The Republic is very much a whole bunch of entities trying their hardest to vibrate into a singular entity, without remembering the fact that one thing doesn't have multiple identities.

Because when one thing has multiple identities, we call that a personality disorder.

10 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

I mean given Star Wars has literally always been about fighting that, it really doesn't.

Also, we may never see democracy function well in Star Wars. When you add too many states for it to comfortably manage, it's an issue. But the reason The Empire seems to work on such a grand scale is...

Well, because it's simple. Base directives come from one dud e in control of everything, then it goes down a fractal of fairly well kept military bureaucracy, which gets suitably altered around and made to fit the individual situation. The Empire works well because it's a single entity, but The Republic is very much a whole bunch of entities trying their hardest to vibrate into a singular entity, without remembering the fact that one thing doesn't have multiple identities.

Because when one thing has multiple identities, we call that a personality disorder.

Which is why Thrawn was willing to play ball with the Empire and why he wanted to help remove the threat of the Rebellion so that the empire and Chiss could face whatever unseen threat that is out there. Though if that refers to Snoke or some space orcs with living ships and weapons we don't know. Part of this makes me wonder if maybe we might get something like the Fel Empire at somepoint, since didn't that lead a period of peace for a while until Star Wars: Legacy came in with more evil sith?

1 minute ago, Animewarsdude said:

Which is why Thrawn was willing to play ball with the Empire and why he wanted to help remove the threat of the Rebellion so that the empire and Chiss could face whatever unseen threat that is out there. Though if that refers to Snoke or some space orcs with living ships and weapons we don't know. Part of this makes me wonder if maybe we might get something like the Fel Empire at somepoint, since didn't that lead a period of peace for a while until Star Wars: Legacy came in with more evil sith?

Yeah, The Fel Empire was pretty legit by all standards, last I checked.

2 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Yeah, The Fel Empire was pretty legit by all standards, last I checked.

Well hopefully if they show up they don't change that they are now run by a space mouse. Or maybe, that would be too on the nose with Disney, not sure.

I swear if it turns out Pryce betrays and kills Thrawn i'll be upset. She hasn't been show capable enough to be worthy of that.

17 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

Not to go wandering down the rabbit hole again, but has anyone noticed that Star Wars movies (especially the newer ones) are very anti-Democracy? Yes, they pay lip service to the idea, but we never see a democracy function well. The Old Republic was mired with bureaucracy and was easily taken over by Palps, the Rebellion (from Rouge One) was indecisive about taking action against the Empire, and the Disney New Republic is just a total mess. It immediately developed a bloated bureaucracy, tried to partially disarm during wartime, refused to assist in the liberation of several worlds, failed to exert its control over the entire galaxy, watched as a new threat grew along its borders, and then allowed itself to be taken out in a single alpha-strike. (which I really, really don't understand how you do that) If it wasn't for a handful of main characters "getting stuff done," democracy would have died and stayed dead.

SW bad guys, on the other hand, seem to be large scale effective, small-scale horrible. Their governments are oppressive, but they really can accomplish a lot until they run into plot-armored characters. Palp's firm hand on the Republic built an army and navy from nothing, the Empire did bring law and order to the far fringes of the galaxy, and the First Order rebuilt a military machine from scratch with a starting point of a few ships and a desire for revenge.

If anything, Star Wars tries to sell you on the idea of a benevolent dictatorship or oligarchy, with the main characters ignoring orders/their governments/the "will of the people" and just doing what needs to be done.

The thing is, even the ****** (in- and out-of-universe) New Republic lasted longer than the Empire, and the Old one enjoyed 1000 years of peace and prosperity. It's just boring to show peace, so the movies focus on the moments when everything falls apart.

SPOILER

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19 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

I mean given Star Wars has literally always been about fighting that, it really doesn't.

You're missing my point. Yes, Star Wars pays lip service to freedom, democracy, and the will of the people, but it never shows us any positives of that. It's one of those cases of "show, don't tell." We are told democracy is a good thing, but the movies have never once shown a positive of democracy. The only time the entire concept comes up is to cause problems for our heroes. I understand that the movie's writers are not trying to tell us democracy is bad, but the stories they are writing do so by implication. Its a case of bad writing, or at least continual use of the same tropes to the point where it unintentionally makes a point.

5 hours ago, eMeM said:

The thing is, even the ****** (in- and out-of-universe) New Republic lasted longer than the Empire, and the Old one enjoyed 1000 years of peace and prosperity. It's just boring to show peace, so the movies focus on the moments when everything falls apart.

Yes, the Old Republic did last a long time, but in Disney's canon, we really don't see much of that. The only parts we are shown are a decadent and corrupt Republic falling. (which, consider the story being told, makes sense)

I'm specifically talking about the Disney version of the New Republic, as it really suffers from this problem. The EU's NR, while very flawed, did show the ability to recover from disasters, and an inner core of strength. (it repeatedly rallied to fight off an invading force, stepped in to stop genocide, and was able to secure control of the vast majority of the Galaxy) But the movies? Nope. They lose their capital, and the whole thing folds. It may have lasted a few years longer than the Empire did, (and that figure is in single digits) but the Empire was far, far more successful than the NR. We assume that there's been peace, but that's just because nothing has been shown during this time frame. There are several other break-away governments running their portions of the galaxy, so there very well could have been wars, skirmishes, and other conflicts and we just haven't seen them yet. We do know that the Empire/First Order spends most of that time conquering the Unknown Regions, so even from what we do know, there isn't peace in the Galaxy-at-large, just the small portion that is the New Republic. Even worse, the New Republic immediately inherits all of the problems of the old, and none of the benefits.

4 hours ago, Imperial Advisor Arem Heshvaun said:

SPOILER

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That’s a scene from twilight of the apprentice.... but interesting.

1 hour ago, Alpha17 said:

Yes, the Old Republic did last a long time, but in Disney's canon, we really don't see much of that. The only parts we are shown are a decadent and corrupt Republic falling. (which, consider the story being told, makes sense)

I'm specifically talking about the Disney version of the New Republic, as it really suffers from this problem. The EU's NR, while very flawed, did show the ability to recover from disasters, and an inner core of strength. (it repeatedly rallied to fight off an invading force, stepped in to stop genocide, and was able to secure control of the vast majority of the Galaxy) But the movies? Nope. They lose their capital, and the whole thing folds. It may have lasted a few years longer than the Empire did, (and that figure is in single digits) but the Empire was far, far more successful than the NR. We assume that there's been peace, but that's just because nothing has been shown during this time frame. There are several other break-away governments running their portions of the galaxy, so there very well could have been wars, skirmishes, and other conflicts and we just haven't seen them yet. We do know that the Empire/First Order spends most of that time conquering the Unknown Regions, so even from what we do know, there isn't peace in the Galaxy-at-large, just the small portion that is the New Republic. Even worse, the New Republic immediately inherits all of the problems of the old, and none of the benefits.

Part of that I think has to deal with that in the old EU they build up to the New Republic, they had tons of books out there where they fought the Empire until they finally won or rather got to the point to establish the government while then having to deal with whatever super weapons the Empire started throwing at them. In contrast the canon New Republic was able to somehow win the war with the Empire really quickly, the Galactic Civil War only lasting one year after Endor, and then they set up the government that pretty much as soon as Mon Mothma stepped down became bloated and useless. The old New Republic also seemed to be bloated by the Bothans who probably played that "many bothans died..." card as much as they could. Which just reminds me, does anyone find it a bit odd that we are a few years into the new canon and there hasn't been any real appearance of them only some mentions with no current description of their appearance?

In the novelization of TLJ they even mention that multiple parts of the galaxy formed their own larger system governments in what I assume would be like small countries. The First Order went around conquering and taking those over leading up to TFA or possibly TLJ too. Which makes me wonder what kind of country, or galactic power, wouldn't really think something was up when their neighbors started disappearing or collapsing. Of course, I will treat the TLJ novelization as canon as the TFA one, aka not all considering how the TFA has lots of points that were discarded by TLJ.

On 2/25/2018 at 4:42 AM, patox said:

Has it been discussed why Rebels is cutting out after 4 seasons?

Especially with promises of another animated show hot on its heels?

Rumors of Clone Wars demise was because Disney wanted the animated show on its own network and not on Viacom's Nickelodeon.

At Celebration, Filoni said something along the lines of wanting to be able to end the show on his own terms, unlike what happened with Clone Wars. He didn't want to leave anything unresolved should the show be cancelled.

3 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

Part of that I think has to deal with that in the old EU they build up to the New Republic, they had tons of books out there where they fought the Empire until they finally won or rather got to the point to establish the government while then having to deal with whatever super weapons the Empire started throwing at them.

Agreed. The development of the EU's New Republic felt natural, with it transitioning from a rebellion to a provisional government, and then eventually to a full government with a Senate, then it's own bureaucracy.

3 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

In contrast the canon New Republic was able to somehow win the war with the Empire really quickly, the Galactic Civil War only lasting one year after Endor, and then they set up the government that pretty much as soon as Mon Mothma stepped down became bloated and useless.

2

Partially true, except as the Aftermath books show, the NR formed a Senate very shortly after Endor, and it immediately became bloated and inefficient, with the Senate required to vote on every military operation for some **** reason. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get they were trying to avoid being like Palpatine during the Clone Wars, but this just seems idiotic to me. You have to vote on every military action, including one that would in a stroke, win the war? How the **** do you launch offensives if you have to take a public vote on the issue?

It would be like the US Congress, or the British House of Commons, voting on launching Operation Overlord in World War II. I feel like surprise goes out the window when you do stuff like this.

3 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

The old New Republic also seemed to be bloated by the Bothans who probably played that "many bothans died..." card as much as they could. Which just reminds me, does anyone find it a bit odd that we are a few years into the new canon and there hasn't been any real appearance of them only some mentions with no current description of their appearance?

1

Actually, now that you mention it, it does seem a little odd. It's almost like they took the "What's a Bothan? No idea, but a bunch of them died I guess" joke to heart, and have actively avoided it.

And I wouldn't call the Bothans bloated. I can think of 4, maybe, that had lasting impacts on the New Republic, one of them being a politician, one a pilot, and two being senior military officers.

9 hours ago, Imperial Advisor Arem Heshvaun said:

SPOILER

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How do you find this stuff? Its not on my youtube feed.

Love the political theory talk!

Let's just face it guys... the Empire are the good guys.

9 minutes ago, MegaSilver said:

How do you find this stuff? Its not on my youtube feed.

It was an image of ‘A World Between Worlds’ from iTunes.

This is 100% the battle against Vader (the purple lighting and the ceiling pattern give it away) but it doesn't seem to match any of the scenes in ‘Twilight of the Apprentice.’

So, my guess, this is probably a flashback to tell us what happened to Ahsoka.

1 minute ago, Sir Orrin said:

the Empire are the good guys.

In a rampantly chaotic Galaxy fillied with trillions of beings, spread over a thousand, thousand worlds {TM}, we have to look past such antiquated and outdated philosophies such as ‘good or evil.’

The Tennents of The New Order clearly state this.

The Empire is Stability.

The Empire is Peace.

The Empire IS Order.

1 hour ago, Alpha17 said:

Partially true, except as the Aftermath books show, the NR formed a Senate very shortly after Endor, and it immediately became bloated and inefficient, with the Senate required to vote on every military operation for some **** reason. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get they were trying to avoid being like Palpatine during the Clone Wars, but this just seems idiotic to me. You have to vote on every military action, including one that would in a stroke, win the war? How the **** do you launch offensives if you have to take a public vote on the issue?

It would be like the US Congress, or the British House of Commons, voting on launching Operation Overlord in World War II. I feel like surprise goes out the window when you do stuff like this.

Actually, now that you mention it, it does seem a little odd. It's almost like they took the "What's a Bothan? No idea, but a bunch of them died I guess" joke to heart, and have actively avoided it.

And I wouldn't call the Bothans bloated. I can think of 4, maybe, that had lasting impacts on the New Republic, one of them being a politician, one a pilot, and two being senior military officers.

Oh...I just...Like how did the Rebellion win again? You'd think the empire would know exactly when the attacks would be coming their way and could prepare for them. Maybe the canon New Republic is more like the Articles of Confederation than any functioning kind of republic?

58 minutes ago, Sir Orrin said:

Love the political theory talk!

Let's just face it guys... the Empire are the good guys.

Well...they did bring peace and security to the galaxy, it just sucked a (whole lot) if you weren't human (or from the core worlds).

1 hour ago, Sir Orrin said:

Love the political theory talk!

Let's just face it guys... the Empire are the good guys.

While the Empire had potential.... nope, still the bad guys. They wore black, and had imagery that looks like skulls. Why skulls? Definitely the baddies.

8 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

Oh...I just...Like how did the Rebellion win again? You'd think the empire would know exactly when the attacks would be coming their way and could prepare for them. Maybe the canon New Republic is more like the Articles of Confederation than any functioning kind of republic?

I think the idea is that the Empire was designed to fail after Endor, and that the New Republic should never have won in the first place. To be fair, I'm still reading Aftermath: Empire's End , so I haven't gotten far enough yet to see the actual hows and whys.

But yeah, I kinda get the impression that the new New Republic really is more of a confederacy than any of the other SW governments we're familiar with. (including the actual CIS)

7 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

Oh...I just...Like how did the Rebellion win again? You'd think the empire would know exactly when the attacks would be coming their way and could prepare for them. Maybe the canon New Republic is more like the Articles of Confederation than any functioning kind of republic?

The empire was kind of pre-ocupied with the whole "Our entire senior staff and their replacements have just been vaporised!" issue.

They weren't called the reminents for nothing.

2 minutes ago, Indy_com said:

The empire was kind of pre-ocupied with the whole "Our entire senior staff and their replacements have just been vaporised!" issue.

They weren't called the reminents for nothing.

Which begs the question about who was on Coruscant, running the Empire while Sparky was off doing Sithy things, or running their other major administrative and military worlds. You can't gather the "entire senior staff" and all of their "replacements" of a GALACTIC GOVERNMENT on a single station or fleet. And beyond the practical considerations, why would you even bother?

4 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

Which begs the question about who was on Coruscant, running the Empire while Sparky was off doing Sithy things, or running their other major administrative and military worlds. You can't gather the "entire senior staff" and all of their "replacements" of a GALACTIC GOVERNMENT on a single station or fleet. And beyond the practical considerations, why would you even bother?

Wasn't Maz Ameeda running the empire or trying to keep it together post Endor? You know that blue guy next to Palpatine in the prequels.

I figured the Empire would have been unprepared for the death of Palpy and that power grabs, assassinations and chaos would have occupied the Empirial forces, leaving the rebels as just one faction among many. The rebels actually cared about setting up a real government so they would have had the advantage of popular support and soldiers who wanted more than just to hold on to a scrap of power or support a warlord’s private mini-Empire.