22 minutes ago, Halyn said:

Consider the possibility that Tarkin was talking about the Jedi as an Order rather than a handful of individuals. The Jedi Order is extinct, even if a handful of people who claim the title of Jedi are still alive. They're irrelevant to galactic affairs, and have no real impact. Their fire has gone out of the universe . From that perspective, Vader is the only relevant former member of the Jedi left. He still has power and still affects the greater galaxy.

What? That's way too sensible an approach to consider.

1 hour ago, Halyn said:

Consider the possibility that Tarkin was talking about the Jedi as an Order rather than a handful of individuals. The Jedi Order is extinct, even if a handful of people who claim the title of Jedi are still alive. They're irrelevant to galactic affairs, and have no real impact. Their fire has gone out of the universe . From that perspective, Vader is the only relevant former member of the Jedi left. He still has power and still affects the greater galaxy.

Only problem with that is, at the time of Rebels, Kanan is still affecting the galaxy. Never mind what he's doing with the Rebellion, the simple fact that he took on a known apprentice is proof that he is continuing the Jedi Order. Then when we take into account his actions, he has blown up Tarkin's personal flagship lagship, his group has been responsible for the loss of two massive kyber crystals, which must have delayed construction on the Death Star, and Kanan's group has been one of the most active, stubborn, and successful Rebel cells. If it weren't for Kanan's team, the Rebellion as we know it might not have even been formed (Mon Mothma likely would have died to the Defender). I'd hardly call that irrelevant to galactic affairs.

6 minutes ago, Underachiever599 said:

Only problem with that is, at the time of Rebels, Kanan is still affecting the galaxy. Never mind what he's doing with the Rebellion, the simple fact that he took on a known apprentice is proof that he is continuing the Jedi Order. Then when we take into account his actions, he has blown up Tarkin's personal flagship lagship, his group has been responsible for the loss of two massive kyber crystals, which must have delayed construction on the Death Star, and Kanan's group has been one of the most active, stubborn, and successful Rebel cells. If it weren't for Kanan's team, the Rebellion as we know it might not have even been formed (Mon Mothma likely would have died to the Defender). I'd hardly call that irrelevant to galactic affairs.

They are hardly a threat. Considering them not extinct after our moment of triumph? Please, their fire has gone out long ago, the few remaining sparks are hardly worth mentioning.

13 minutes ago, Underachiever599 said:

Only problem with that is, at the time of Rebels, Kanan is still affecting the galaxy. Never mind what he's doing with the Rebellion, the simple fact that he took on a known apprentice is proof that he is continuing the Jedi Order. Then when we take into account his actions, he has blown up Tarkin's personal flagship lagship, his group has been responsible for the loss of two massive kyber crystals, which must have delayed construction on the Death Star, and Kanan's group has been one of the most active, stubborn, and successful Rebel cells. If it weren't for Kanan's team, the Rebellion as we know it might not have even been formed (Mon Mothma likely would have died to the Defender). I'd hardly call that irrelevant to galactic affairs.

Merely lies and slander by rogue rival elements

1 minute ago, SEApocalypse said:

They are hardly a threat. Considering them not extinct after our moment of triumph? Please, their fire has gone out long ago, the few remaining sparks are hardly worth mentioning.

You really have to look at the full context of the scene that Tarkin is speaking to Vader.

Vader: "He is here."

Tarkin: "Obi-Wan Kenobi? What makes you think so?"

Vader: "A tremor in the Force. The last time I felt it was in the presence of my old master."

Tarkin: " Surely he must be dead by now ."

Vader: "Don't underestimate the Force."

Tarkin: " The Jedi are extinct . Their fire has gone out of the universe. You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion."

Tarkin isn't saying that the Jedi are no longer a threat. He isn't saying that the Jedi aren't worth mentioning. He's in denial that even a single Jedi, a Jedi Master who was never confirmed dead, has survived. Why would he be so certain that Obi-Wan is dead by now if he knew of other active Jedi who were still alive? Why would he be telling Vader that the Jedi are extinct if he sat face-to-face with a Jedi a couple years earlier, that Jedi blew up his personal Star Destroyer , delayed the construction of their Death Star, caused the destruction of several Star Destroyers and Interdictors, had been a persistent pain in the neck in general for the following few years, and was still alive and active in the Rebellion? Tarkin is fully aware of the Jedi and the threat they pose in Rebels, and yet in A New Hope, he refuses to believe that a Jedi might still be alive, despite Vader sensing one. The only way that makes any sort of sense is if the Empire were under the impression that Ezra and Kanan, the last of the remaining Jedi, were dead.

Tarkin is the same guy who considered ~10,000 jedi commanders useless during the clone wars and tried multiple times to convince Palpatine to remove them from command. Surely that old man Obi-Wan must be dead by now, without a place to run nor hide in the whole galaxy. Without an order to protect them they must be all dead.

Tarkin is full of ****, always has been.

5 hours ago, eMeM said:

Maybe Tarkin is just extraggerating to make a point, just like with Alderaan.

" The Jedi are extinct, except that guy who blew up my Star Destroyer a while back, and his padawan, their fire has gone out of the universe. You, my friend, and those two guys, are all that's left of their religion " sounds a bit energy-wasteyish.

Considering how often 'those two guys' have resulted in the destruction of Imperial property, I'd imagine that Tarkin would be asking Vader if it could be one of them on the station instead of the guy who fell off the galaxy 20 years ago. Instead, Tarkin is telling Vader that his detection of a presence is completely mistaken.

Here's the full conversation:

Darth Vader : He is here.
Governor Tarkin : Obi-Wan Kenobi? What makes you think so?
Darth Vader : A tremor in the Force. The last time I felt it was in the presence of my old master.
Governor Tarkin : Surely he must be dead by now.
Darth Vader : Don't underestimate the Force.
Governor Tarkin : The Jedi are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe. You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion.
[ answering a comm signal ]
Governor Tarkin : Yes?
Voice over comm : We have an emergency alert in detention block AA-23.
Governor Tarkin : The Princess? Put all sections on alert.
Darth Vader : Obi-wan *is* here. The Force is with him.
Governor Tarkin : If you're right, he must not be allowed to escape.
Darth Vader : Escape is not his plan. I must face him, alone.

He goes from skeptical to belief at the first sign of an actual intrusion. That isn't the outlook of a person who is exaggerating, that is the outlook of a person who was just told that somebody who should have been dead by now is actually on the Death Star. Nobody is going to take that just at face value, but he instantly assumes that Kenobi is a legitimate threat to the station even without concrete proof yet that he is on board.

But again, Tarkin has had contact with two Jedi in the past couple years. Whatever the Star Wars equivalent of Occam's Razor would suggest that he ask if Vader's radar was just a bit off instead of completely on the fritz if those two were around to sneak on board.

4 hours ago, Halyn said:

Consider the possibility that Tarkin was talking about the Jedi as an Order rather than a handful of individuals. The Jedi Order is extinct, even if a handful of people who claim the title of Jedi are still alive. They're irrelevant to galactic affairs, and have no real impact. Their fire has gone out of the universe . From that perspective, Vader is the only relevant former member of the Jedi left. He still has power and still affects the greater galaxy.

He was dismissing Vader's claim that Kenobi, an individual, was on board. Kenobi wasn't a Jedi Order, he was a lone Master. And he said the Jedi ARE extinct. That means he is talking that the multitude of people who are Jedi are extinct, not the organization that they are a part of. It just doesn't fit with the overall scope of their conversation.

Between Tarkin and Yoda, it was the intention of the OT that Luke be the last of the Jedi by the time Yoda died. Yoda apparently had the possibility of chit-chatting with Obi-Wan Kenobi's ghost since he was glowing around the Dagobah swamps. Do you think that they would pass up the chance of having a true backup plan in case Luke repeated history and a new Skywalker was a Sith.

Heck, Kenobi had seen Ezra in person and Yoda spoke to him and Kanan. What was Yoda doing in the years between Kanaan and Ezra's antics and Luke first showing up? There couldn't be a couple more Knights in the Jedi Order to help rebuild?

Yet when both Yoda and Kenobi talked, they said their peace and either dismissed or simply let them do their own thing with no further contact. In both cases, they seemed to be somewhat disapproving of the paths that the two of them took with Kenobi implying that Ezra had a part in potentially upsetting the lines of fate when he showed up and was simply 'not needed' and Yoda asking Kanan if he was truly worthy of having an apprentice and shaking his head when Ezra insisted that fighting was the only way to destroy the Sith.

Perhaps these two Masters, wizened by the arrogance that the Order used to have, knew that there was no stopping these two young warriors from repeating the mistakes that had nearly wiped the Jedi out from the galaxy? Maybe they knew that assisting these firebrands would critically endanger their ability to train Luke to be the true savior of the Jedi?

Who knows, but there has to be a reason why neither one offered even the secrets of becoming a Force ghost to the Specter Jedi.

On 09/11/2017 at 3:44 PM, OneKelvin said:

Millennia. Thousand years. No. I don't think so.

The Jedi were the space police just two decades ago. People are still alive who remember, it's not even a convincing lie.

Not a lie. Just one of the plot holes between the OT and the PT.

caught up.. noticed something interesting, which ties into the whole "where/when did the rebellion get X-wings" question..

Kanan calls the U-wing "old" and doubts whether the hyperdrive they stole will work with it, while Sabine believes it should be plug and play.. suggesting that the U-wing predates standardized imperial technology standards.

the U-wing, per the current canon, was the last thing the Incom company designed before it was Nationalized by the Empire (resulting in only a partial production run).. and that the T-65 X-wing actually predates the U-wing by some unspecified amount of time.

if the U-wing is old enough to predate imperial standard tech.. wouldn't that suggest the X-wing is also an old fighter? the X-wings may actually have been developed closer to the end of the Clone War than to Scarif/Yavin..

Could very well be, then again perhaps the U-Wing was meant to be a cut rate transport/gunship for local planetary governments and therefore was compatible with the parts that were available to such a market.

While we don't see major fighter firms marketing directly to the third world here on earth, that doesn't mean that a company with a pangalactic market would leave money on the table for places like Tatooine and other backwaters. If the Incom staff were indeed sympathetic to the Rebellion such a craft would be perfect to be frequently 'pirated' from the company.

All this while the X-Wing is still a capable fighter in its own right even if it isn't on the lead of cutting edge.

On 11/11/2017 at 7:39 PM, mithril2098 said:

caught up.. noticed something interesting, which ties into the whole "where/when did the rebellion get X-wings" question..

Kanan calls the U-wing "old" and doubts whether the hyperdrive they stole will work with it, while Sabine believes it should be plug and play.. suggesting that the U-wing predates standardized imperial technology standards.

the U-wing, per the current canon, was the last thing the Incom company designed before it was Nationalized by the Empire (resulting in only a partial production run).. and that the T-65 X-wing actually predates the U-wing by some unspecified amount of time.

if the U-wing is old enough to predate imperial standard tech.. wouldn't that suggest the X-wing is also an old fighter? the X-wings may actually have been developed closer to the end of the Clone War than to Scarif/Yavin..

Hey, that's actually very good investigatory work on your part, I applaud you.

40 minutes ago, flyboymb said:

Could very well be, then again perhaps the U-Wing was meant to be a cut rate transport/gunship for local planetary governments and therefore was compatible with the parts that were available to such a market.

While we don't see major fighter firms marketing directly to the third world here on earth, that doesn't mean that a company with a pangalactic market would leave money on the table for places like Tatooine and other backwaters. If the Incom staff were indeed sympathetic to the Rebellion such a craft would be perfect to be frequently 'pirated' from the company.

All this while the X-Wing is still a capable fighter in its own right even if it isn't on the lead of cutting edge.

Well... We have been known to give older fighters to some folks in the middle east.

Now Rebel Assault was great.

My thoughts on rebels are on record ad nauseum so I won't reiterate them.

As for the episode could someone explain briefly what happened? Have they nerfed Thrawn yet?

On November 9, 2017 at 4:10 PM, SEApocalypse said:

They are hardly a threat. Considering them not extinct after our moment of triumph? Please, their fire has gone out long ago, the few remaining sparks are hardly worth mentioning.

Hardly a threat? Have you been watching the show. Phantom Squadron is the spearhead of the rebellion in this part of the galaxy at this point.

@Halyn The problem is when someone pisses off Tarkin, it's well established in his character he won't let them get away with their transgressions and Kanan blew up his flagship ISD, and escaped capture under Tarkin's nose making the Governor appear like a fool.

Now that doesn't mean Tarkin will ever get Kanan but in a private discussion with Darth Vader he's not going to forget the Jedi whose caused him the most grief if they're still alive. Remember the context of the scene is Tarkin's surprise that a Jedi is alive.

Quote

Tarkin: " The Jedi are extinct. Their fire has gone out of the universe. You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion. "

18 minutes ago, Forresto said:

As for the episode could someone explain briefly what happened? Have they nerfed Thrawn yet?

Hardly a threat? Have you been watching the show. Phantom Squadron is the spearhead of the rebellion in this part of the galaxy at this point. If the Ghost is doing anything then

Kanan is absolutely a threat, and as for Tarkin referencing the Jedi Order's extinction, its clear he's bothered by simply Obi-Wan existing so I imagine the jedi whose personally been a thorn in Tarkin's side is problematic to the governor.

List anything significant the phoenix cell has have done. Destroying a capital ship in this regard doesn't really count, the empire has literally a million of those.

I give you one deathstar kyber crystal, but that merely is an annoyance considering that the empire manufactures them all over the galaxy and is losing them to various threats as well (Obi Wan/Anakin destroyed one, Saw Gerrera at least another one, most likely severals as he tracked one of the sources down and attacked the imperial operations on Jedha.

For the episode:

13 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

List anything significant the phoenix cell has have done. Destroying a capital ship in this regard doesn't really count, the empire has literally a million of those.

I give you one deathstar kyber crystal, but that merely is an annoyance considering that the empire manufactures them all over the galaxy and is losing them to various threats as well (Obi Wan/Anakin destroyed one, Saw Gerrera at least another one, most likely severals as he tracked one of the sources down and attacked the imperial operations on Jedha.

For the episode:

Phoenix Squadron broke the orbital blockade, but Thrawn was prepared with a whole Wing of TIE-Fighters intercepting the two rebel squadrons about at about 20kms from the target away. Surprised by the second wave Hera screwed up, no escape plan either and the TIEs destroyed both rebel squadrons completely, most rebel pilots dead, a few captures, a few escaped. Hera captured alive by Rukh. Overall it was a nearly flawless imperial victory, even when the factory lost its anti-air defense towers.
Thrawn did not screw up, but he did not do anything outstanding either. Having a second wave of fighters ready to intercept enemy fighters which try to break a blockage seems only logical. He ground defense and security around his bait (the TIE-Defender fab) seems to have been especially lax, considering that the rebel saboteurs had no trouble playing charges on the anti-air towers.

Significant to Tarkin directly not necessarily significant to the larger galaxy.

Mangalore is a big deal.

Thanks a lot for the explanation btw, glad to hear of an Imperial victory. Sometimes its annoying to not have cable any more, sometimes.

Just now, Forresto said:

Mangalore is a big deal.

Mangalore is from The Fifth Element. You mean Mandalore

Enjoyable episode, and appreciate the fact they were using individual rebel pilots rather than just faceless goons like they did in season 2. Though while it is a bit petty I kind of dislike how they used the Ghost's nose and turret guns for the sound effect of the X-wing firing, it just sounds really out of place just like how I hate hearing TFA's falcon's guns being used during the OT in games and the like. To me the sounds are rather iconic and while I don't need them to be exact it feels just as out of place to me as using BB-8s, or Chopper's astromech sounds for R2.

27 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

Enjoyable episode, and appreciate the fact they were using individual rebel pilots rather than just faceless goons like they did in season 2. Though while it is a bit petty I kind of dislike how they used the Ghost's nose and turret guns for the sound effect of the X-wing firing, it just sounds really out of place just like how I hate hearing TFA's falcon's guns being used during the OT in games and the like. To me the sounds are rather iconic and while I don't need them to be exact it feels just as out of place to me as using BB-8s, or Chopper's astromech sounds for R2.

Ghost gun = 4 dice primary

Same sound effect as an X-wing

...

Illuminati 3 confirmed.

Bump cause it’s new episode day!

Well, that was an accurate depiction of X-Wings in the current meta

22 minutes ago, Stevey86 said:

Well, that was an accurate depiction of X-Wings in the current meta

A Tie Swarm murdering a bunch of X-Wings and Y-Wings. It's totally what used to happen during Wave 1.

9 minutes ago, Xorn said:

A Tie Swarm murdering a bunch of X-Wings and Y-Wings. It's totally what used to happen during Wave 1.

Doug Kenny, master of the swarm, defier of intentional draws.

He had an apprentice named, Duncan, who was a pupil of Paul until he turned to evil. Paul knew one day Duncan would strike him down, so Paul took an apprentice all his own, young Nathan, to learn the ways of the Corran until the time is right for Nathan to bring balance to the FAQ. Little did they know the bounty hunters Nand and Justin had entered the game with goals of their own...

...And so Rebels Season 4 begins and ends (mid season anyway) on a horribly flaccid note. I was excited to see just how they'd pull off X-Wings in Rebels. How Rebels got their most important fighter ever, how it performs against Imperial vessels, you know the drill- why the X-Wing is as legendary as it is.

No. We didn't get that. Anything like that. The B-Wing gets an origin story. The Y-Wing gets an origin story.

But the X-Wing apparently doesn't deserve the same attention as Force Wolves.

Now that we're at the mid-season break, I can firmly say that I'm genuinely displeased by this season, and that bothers me. Because I really enjoyed the three prior seasons, especially the best bits of 2 and 3, because they felt like they were building towards something greater. I don't have that feeling anymore. All I'm feeling is, "By the numbers, let's just get this over with so Dave Filoni can get his wild-doggo fix in."

Force wolves that can say names and run through Hyperspace, that have a nebulous connection with the force, aren't very interesting. But you know what else they aren't?

They're not what we're here for.

I don't like the direction this is heading. I don't like X-Wings done this disservice, I don't like how nothing but TIEs ever fire at Rebel fighters (Remember ANH? Remember how the guns were an actual threat, by comparison?)

And can we talk about Thrawn? I'm not entirely willing to believe he's an immaculate war genius quite yet. Why?

Why aren't there anti-fighter vessels such as an Imperial Raider with Ion Cannon modifications TO THEIR POINT DEFENSE GUNS?

Your enemy relies almost ENTIRELY ON FIGHTER SIZED VESSELS, THRAWN. If you want to capture them so badly, disable their craft, tractor beam them in, and get to it. (Granted, The Chimera failed to tractor beam Luke in, in one of the novels, because Luke pulled a **** of a trick with his engines) but seriously. Also a little silly to be so willing to off your own pilot just to prove a point. Dropping Hera's shields did absolutely nothing- and what, a TIE Defender crashing into an Arquitens class Cruiser is gonna bring it down?

I'd ask if these things are just flat out made of paper, but having played Battlefront II 2's beta I do believe they really do suck THAT MUCH.

Get better, Rebels.

You're way, way better than this crap.

27 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Why aren't there anti-fighter vessels such as an Imperial Raider with Ion Cannon modifications TO THEIR POINT DEFENSE GUNS?

Because they don't have a raider model, but they have plenty of Light Imperial Cruiser Models. Besides, introducing the Raider right out of nowhere makes narratively no sense on top. A trap with the fighters we know Thrawn has makes much more sense and plays right into the rebels arrogance that they just need to get into the atmosphere and can strike successful at the base. It's not a genius strategy, but it rather solid and abuses a blind spot from hera, which Thrawn had found out about in the season before.

The studio has to work with the resources they have, and they already have introduced defenders, new tanks, X-Wings (new model), a defender variant, defense structures, etc
And proper model of an imperial raider would cost them many, many man hours of modelling work, while it would come literally out of nowhere for a lot of the audience. And I am not sure that the raider is even mass introduced into imperial service yet as it is a patrol and anti-fighter craft. We know there is a raider used during the testing of TIE/AD x1 prototypes, sometime before BY, but I don't think we know much more about raider deployments.

Just now, SEApocalypse said:

Because they don't have a raider model, but they have plenty of Light Imperial Cruiser Models. Besides, introducing the Raider right out of nowhere makes narratively no sense on top. A trap with the fighters we know Thrawn has makes much more sense and plays right into the rebels arrogance that they just need to get into the atmosphere and can strike successful at the base. It's not a genius strategy, but it rather solid and abuses a blind spot from hera, which Thrawn had found out about in the season before.

The studio has to work with the resources they have, and they already have introduced defenders, new tanks, X-Wings (new model), a defender variant, defense structures, etc
And proper model of an imperial raider would cost them many, many man hours of modelling work, while it would come literally out of nowhere for a lot of the audience. And I am not sure that the raider is even mass introduced into imperial service yet as it is a patrol and anti-fighter craft. We know there is a raider used during the testing of TIE/AD x1 prototypes, sometime before BY, but I don't think we know much more about raider deployments.

It wouldn't cost them much. It'd cost them, but it would cost them no more than porting over Rogue One's model for the tank did, especially given that the Raider CGI model exists for Battlefront II 2 (and could pretty easily have simpler textures and some detail removed.)

But you don't even need a raider. You could just throw different guns onto an Arquitens, change the color to blue and say "Yes sir, that is an ion cannon" and it's believable.