3 hours ago, eMeM said:

They were not going to retreat because retreating at this point meant losing the war, they only had one shot. They dived into dozens of Star Destroyers, ffs...

Executor was just a target of opportunity, and I'd wager that two more ISDs would me more useful than some Defenders, so if we assume Endor could be won in space, maybe the Imperial mistake was not having enough capships.
Interceptors and even /lns are faster than X-wings, smaller, faster and more agile than the Defenders, they were as good as you can get for that reactor chase.

In ANH you ignore that we don't see most of the Rebel fighters either. Vader kills 7, Porkins smashes into the surface, Luke, Wedge and an Y-wing survive, leaving us with 19 fighters unaccounted for.
And frankly, Vader didn't do anything impressive, if he weren't there, any of his wingmen could replace him.

Those numbers... I can't take them seriously, sorry.

If they weren't going to retreat why would ackbar even suggest it? Screw whoevers on endor, get at least half the fleet out and try another day. Or watch the Death Star pick off your cap ships one by one.

and the executor was as much a target of opportunity as it was a target of necessity. a ship that singlehandedly could have gone toe to toe with the rest of the rebellions fleet needed to be dealt with asap. If enough tie defenders were present to provide a better fighter screen or do what they do best assault capital ships the rebels may not have had the manpower left or fighters left to assault the executor.

Tbh though it doesn't matter because the rebellion has plot armor anyway and the empire could have shown up with a fleet of executors and Death Stars and our heroes would still end up winning.

12 hours ago, flyboymb said:

What if enough corvettes and fighters were destroyed that the Executor's shields couldn't have been brought down? What if Arvel Crynyd had been shot down or been occupied by TIE Defenders instead of making an attack run towards the Executor's bridge? How many ISDs would be able to focus on the fight if the Rebel B-Wings and Y-Wings were wiped out thanks to high speed Imperial fighters with warheads. What would a squadron of fighters, able to fly much faster than Wedge or the Falcon , have been able to accomplish going into the Death Star Core? TIE Defender missiles would play a major part in this. How do you dodge a warhead when you can barely fit through the corridors?

TIE Defenders came equipped with tractor beams.
It would have been fun to see how Wedge and the other rebels survived the corridors in the DS2 with a TIE Defender or two chasing them and tractoring them to the sides.

However, I think in legends it was said that there were a few TIE Defenders at Endor, though. Just a few. I think they were the Onyx Squadron. It was said that they didn't make such a big difference though, because there were too few of them.

Quote

The Official Star Wars Fact File 11 states that "the new TIE defender would not be at [the Battle of] Endor". ^[35] However, this contradicts the Death Star II Limited expansion set for the Star Wars Customizable Card Game , The New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels and Starships of the Galaxy , all of which establish that the pilots of Onyx Squadron used TIE Defenders during the battle. ^{[21] [7] [5]}

4 hours ago, FlyingAnchors said:

If they weren't going to retreat why would ackbar even suggest it? Screw whoevers on endor, get at least half the fleet out and try another day. Or watch the Death Star pick off your cap ships one by one.

and the executor was as much a target of opportunity as it was a target of necessity. a ship that singlehandedly could have gone toe to toe with the rest of the rebellions fleet needed to be dealt with asap. If enough tie defenders were present to provide a better fighter screen or do what they do best assault capital ships the rebels may not have had the manpower left or fighters left to assault the executor.

Tbh though it doesn't matter because the rebellion has plot armor anyway and the empire could have shown up with a fleet of executors and Death Stars and our heroes would still end up winning.

Okay, again, if it was such a close call, why do people insist fighters in particular would have changed everything, and not for example an extra Star Destroyer with a few dozen TIEs?

If Thrawn was at the Battle of Endor it would have been an amazing victory for the Empire. Even if Luke succeeded against the Emperor, Thrawn would have noticed an Imperial shuttle going towards the Rebel fleet and it would have been shot down.

14 hours ago, eMeM said:

They were not going to retreat because retreating at this point meant losing the war, they only had one shot. They dived into dozens of Star Destroyers, ffs...

Executor was just a target of opportunity, and I'd wager that two more ISDs would me more useful than some Defenders, so if we assume Endor could be won in space, maybe the Imperial mistake was not having enough capships.
Interceptors and even /lns are faster than X-wings, smaller, faster and more agile than the Defenders, they were as good as you can get for that reactor chase.

In ANH you ignore that we don't see most of the Rebel fighters either. Vader kills 7, Porkins smashes into the surface, Luke, Wedge and an Y-wing survive, leaving us with 19 fighters unaccounted for.
And frankly, Vader didn't do anything impressive, if he weren't there, any of his wingmen could replace him.

Those numbers... I can't take them seriously, sorry.

Lando Calrissian : [ after seeing the Death Star is operational ] Home One, this is Gold Leader.
Admiral Ackbar : We saw it. All craft, prepare to retreat.
Lando Calrissian : We won't get another chance at this, Admiral.
Admiral Ackbar : We have no choice, General Calrissian! Our cruisers can't repel firepower of that magnitude!
Lando Calrissian : Han will have that shield down. We've got to give him more time!

The fleet didn't know when or if the shield was going to come down. Without that happening, there was 0% chance at victory. If you're an Admiral with thousands of lives under your command, and you have to weigh having your fleet annihilated without even being given the chance at victory, retreat is going to be heavily considered.

Ackbar gave the order, they were preparing to retreat, there's no debating this.

In ANH, Vader and his wingmen are the only ones to engage the Rebels in the trenches. Vader is the one who ordered his personal squadron sent out in the first place. Vader personally shot down both Red and Gold Leader. We know from Rebels the kinds of things that Vader can do in his fighter. As for the rest of the Rebel fighters, new canon doesn't give us any answers but Legends at least tells us that Blue Squadron and Green Squadron were a part of the fight and split off in order to attempt to directly damage the super laser. It's not much to go on, but given that the trench run was considered to be nearly impossible to accomplish it wouldn't be surprising if contingency plans were established to try to give the Rebels time to escape if the Death Star couldn't be utterly destroyed.

As for the worth of the TIE Defender in numbers, we have stats for the F-22 giving it kills in the hundreds without a single loss http://www.f-16.net/f-22-news-article2848.html . I'm assuming that this is against fighters one generation behind it in technology. Considering the TIE Fighter is at least 2 generations behind the Defender (3 if you count the Interceptor and Advanced as intermediate generations), then 30 Fighters to 1 Defender is hardly an overstatement.

6 hours ago, eMeM said:

Okay, again, if it was such a close call, why do people insist fighters in particular would have changed everything, and not for example an extra Star Destroyer with a few dozen TIEs?

Because it was fighters that destroyed the Death Star, not the capital ships. A couple more ISDs wouldn't have had a significant effect on the fighter numbers as we know they're weak against fast moving targets. They certainly wouldn't have flown into the Death Star after the Falcon. A more advanced fighter screen would have had a much greater impact on the battle. Let's face it, a couple of Mon Cal cruisers and Nebulons is not what turned the tide of battle. It was the squadrons of Rebel fighters that made the difference.

As Azraspe stated, what would Lando or Wedge do if their steering was constantly being interfered with by a tractor beam? How could Wedge evade in such confines if a Defender lobbed a couple of Advanced Concussion missiles at him? Odds are Wedge would be destroyed and the Falcon would be missing a lot more than a sensor dish. It would be Yavin all over again except there might not be another wave behind Lando to attack the Death Star and the Rebel fleet would be totally encircled by enemy cruisers.

Is Season 4 really premiering at 11:30 pm CT on a Sunday night???? I just noticed it scheduled to record on my DirecTV DVR. I couldn't find an earlier time on the schedule.

Yeah, it's odd as ****. I think the episodes will run at more reasonable time as well, but they're premiering at that bizarre hour.

I thought mondays were going to be Star Wars rebels premier days.

18 hours ago, Celestial Lizards said:

If Thrawn was at the Battle of Endor it would have been an amazing victory for the Empire. Even if Luke succeeded against the Emperor, Thrawn would have noticed an Imperial shuttle going towards the Rebel fleet and it would have been shot down.

lol ?

Didn't know Thrawn was THAT good so that you can be sure he would, while giving battle orders, notice a tiny ship going out of an enormous exploding space station, in the middle of some of the biggest space battle ever.

Rebels Season 4 clip Bo-Katan returns

For those of you who need a Rebels Recap, Season 1 - 3 in five minutes.

23 minutes ago, Giledhil said:

lol ?

Didn't know Thrawn was THAT good so that you can be sure he would, while giving battle orders, notice a tiny ship going out of an enormous exploding space station, in the middle of some of the biggest space battle ever.

There is a clear precedent for that.

In the Battle of Sluis Van, without the aid of any sensor readings, the Grand Admiral noticed and pinpointed the Falcon pulling away right in the thick of combat, to the disbelief of Captain Pallaeon.

13 minutes ago, Imperial Advisor Arem Heshvaun said:

There is a clear precedent for that.

In the Battle of Sluis Van, without the aid of any sensor readings, the Grand Admiral noticed and pinpointed the Falcon pulling away right in the thick of combat, to the disbelief of Captain Pallaeon.

And a precedent makes it obvious that it would happen any time without question? Well thought.

11 hours ago, flyboymb said:

Lando Calrissian : [ after seeing the Death Star is operational ] Home One, this is Gold Leader.
Admiral Ackbar : We saw it. All craft, prepare to retreat.
Lando Calrissian : We won't get another chance at this, Admiral.
Admiral Ackbar : We have no choice, General Calrissian! Our cruisers can't repel firepower of that magnitude!
Lando Calrissian : Han will have that shield down. We've got to give him more time!

The fleet didn't know when or if the shield was going to come down. Without that happening, there was 0% chance at victory. If you're an Admiral with thousands of lives under your command, and you have to weigh having your fleet annihilated without even being given the chance at victory, retreat is going to be heavily considered.

Ackbar gave the order, they were preparing to retreat, there's no debating this.

In ANH, Vader and his wingmen are the only ones to engage the Rebels in the trenches. Vader is the one who ordered his personal squadron sent out in the first place. Vader personally shot down both Red and Gold Leader. We know from Rebels the kinds of things that Vader can do in his fighter. As for the rest of the Rebel fighters, new canon doesn't give us any answers but Legends at least tells us that Blue Squadron and Green Squadron were a part of the fight and split off in order to attempt to directly damage the super laser. It's not much to go on, but given that the trench run was considered to be nearly impossible to accomplish it wouldn't be surprising if contingency plans were established to try to give the Rebels time to escape if the Death Star couldn't be utterly destroyed.

As for the worth of the TIE Defender in numbers, we have stats for the F-22 giving it kills in the hundreds without a single loss http://www.f-16.net/f-22-news-article2848.html . I'm assuming that this is against fighters one generation behind it in technology. Considering the TIE Fighter is at least 2 generations behind the Defender (3 if you count the Interceptor and Advanced as intermediate generations), then 30 Fighters to 1 Defender is hardly an overstatement.

Because it was fighters that destroyed the Death Star, not the capital ships. A couple more ISDs wouldn't have had a significant effect on the fighter numbers as we know they're weak against fast moving targets. They certainly wouldn't have flown into the Death Star after the Falcon. A more advanced fighter screen would have had a much greater impact on the battle. Let's face it, a couple of Mon Cal cruisers and Nebulons is not what turned the tide of battle. It was the squadrons of Rebel fighters that made the difference.

As Azraspe stated, what would Lando or Wedge do if their steering was constantly being interfered with by a tractor beam? How could Wedge evade in such confines if a Defender lobbed a couple of Advanced Concussion missiles at him? Odds are Wedge would be destroyed and the Falcon would be missing a lot more than a sensor dish. It would be Yavin all over again except there might not be another wave behind Lando to attack the Death Star and the Rebel fleet would be totally encircled by enemy cruisers.

If we assume Ackbar would retreat if he lost a few more ships obviously more ISDs would make a bigger difference.

As I said, Yavin would be won if Tarkin wasn't incompetent and ordered fightets to take off.
I'm not talking about clearly-contradicting-the-movies-squadrons, I'm talking about 30 fighters of the Red and Gold squadron, of which 27 were destroyed, and only 7 in the trench.

Why better fighters and not more fighters?
An ISD carries 72 TIEs, what would Lando do if his steering was constantly being interrupted by a rain of laser bolts? How could Wedge evade 144+ rapid firing cannons?
If those concussion missiles are so godly it's strange that we don't see TIE Bombers (which unlike TIE Defenders actually have space to store missiles and even launchers to launch them, but I digress) decimating Rebel squadrons... well, anywhere except for that anime short.

221-0 kill ratio doesn't mean F-22 is worth 22`1 fighters, or that it could take 200, or 100, or 10, or 5 fighters in a single battle. It relies on the ability to destroy the target and run away before it's even detected, that's completely inapplicable to Star Wars.

Not trying to be obtuse, but is there a current canon source for Black Squadron being the only TIEs launched at Yarvin?

3 hours ago, Giledhil said:

lol ?

Didn't know Thrawn was THAT good so that you can be sure he would, while giving battle orders, notice a tiny ship going out of an enormous exploding space station, in the middle of some of the biggest space battle ever.

It wouldn't be exploding. I think Thrawn would make sure some of his Defenders were around to defend the reactor.

8 minutes ago, Celestial Lizards said:

It wouldn't be exploding. I think Thrawn would make sure some of his Defenders were around to defend the reactor.

Problem is, while the Emperor was in charge, he personnaly ordered the ISDs to stay out of the fight and just prevent the rebels from getting away, so he would be able to make his show of force to Luke, hoping to turn him to the dark side.

But basically yes, (and it's Pelleaon's point in one of the books), once the Emperor dead, Imperials lost the battle because they began to run like headless chickens instead of reorganizing. That at least Thrawn may have prevent, and maybe changing the course of the batlle (which didn't need the DSII to be won).

Oh come on. We all know what would've won the war:

FIVE-WINGED SAVIORS!!!

3 hours ago, eMeM said:

If we assume Ackbar would retreat if he lost a few more ships obviously more ISDs would make a bigger difference.

As I said, Yavin would be won if Tarkin wasn't incompetent and ordered fightets to take off.
I'm not talking about clearly-contradicting-the-movies-squadrons, I'm talking about 30 fighters of the Red and Gold squadron, of which 27 were destroyed, and only 7 in the trench.

Why better fighters and not more fighters?
An ISD carries 72 TIEs, what would Lando do if his steering was constantly being interrupted by a rain of laser bolts? How could Wedge evade 144+ rapid firing cannons?
If those concussion missiles are so godly it's strange that we don't see TIE Bombers (which unlike TIE Defenders actually have space to store missiles and even launchers to launch them, but I digress) decimating Rebel squadrons... well, anywhere except for that anime short.

221-0 kill ratio doesn't mean F-22 is worth 22`1 fighters, or that it could take 200, or 100, or 10, or 5 fighters in a single battle. It relies on the ability to destroy the target and run away before it's even detected, that's completely inapplicable to Star Wars.

30 ISDs wasn't good enough to stop the Rebels from destroying the Death Star. 2 more would be the tipping point in you opinion? Again how would they wedge themselves into that shaft to go after the Falcon? You forget that even if the Empire had 500 more ISDs and reduced the Rebel fleet to rubble, if the Falcon gets into that shaft the Emperor and Vader are dead and the Rebels win. There were already more than enough swarms of TIE Fighters and Interceptors that numbers should have annihilated the Rebel fighters. But all those swarms couldn't wipe them out. The swarm concept that the Empire championed failed. It was a poor strategy. The superior fighters of the Rebellion were able to overcome the numbers and bring about victory. The entire Battle of Endor was an epitaph for the Imperial doctrine of using the cheapest fighter available to screen the Star Destroyers.

In any case, Ackbar wasn't initially retreating because of the Star Destroyers, it was because of the giant death ray that was instakilling his ships and the shield that was protecting it. The Imperial fleet wasn't menacing him at the time. Having a couple more ships hanging in the background wouldn't have been the selling point for getting out of dodge. It would have been a failure of the ground forces to take the shield down. The Rebels have always wanted to avoid a head on confrontation with any strong Imperial fleet. Staying and fighting without the shield going down would be nothing but a net loss for the Rebels. It was only Lando's assurance that Han would enable them to complete their mission that changed Ackbar's mind from retreating because that would justify the additional loss in life.

TIE Fighters weren't going to stop the Falcon, it was outrunning TIE Interceptors going in and coming out of the reactor shaft. Where would all those laser blasts be hitting if they weren't in range? The handful of fighters following them should have been enough to at least damage the Falcon enough that it wouldn't have made it out alive. But they didn't. That was the Interceptor, it wasn't good enough. The TIE Defender would have objectively done better because it performed better in almost every way and had tools that the Interceptor just plain lacked.

What good would warheads do? Ask 2 Death Star reactors. Heck, ask the ISDs that the B-Wings popped during Endor. Ask Obi-Wan Kenobi why he was steering for his life when he had missiles homing in behind him if they weren't a threat to his craft. Ask Poe and Finn what sent their stolen TIE crashing down to Jakku. Warheads work wonders. TIE Bombers do indeed use them, but they're slow as spit. If the Falcon is leaving Interceptors in the dust, just what chance does a Bomber have of keeping up with it? You'd need a fighter that could carry a good number of those warheads while going faster than the Interceptor. I only see one Imperial production fighter coming to mind that meets those requirements.

And finally the kill ratio for the F-22s is a reflection on how good it is compared to other fighters. If it were the equal to another fighter, you'd expect a 1:1 kill ratio out of it. If it averaged a 10:1 ratio, then the enemy has to field 10 fighters for every 1 that you put up. If that jumps to 100:1, then the enemy is churning out an average of 100 replacement fighters for every 1 of yours it shoots down. It doesn't matter how the F-22 does this, it just matters how many burning hulks are on the ground compared to older US fighters. You could take the ratios of those older planes and figure out how many old planes would be lost to achieve the same results as the Raptor. That tells you how many older fighters each Raptor is worth. So if the TIE Defender can easily rack up X-Wing kills and the X-Wing can rack up TIE Fighter kills, you have a ratio to compare the Defender and the Fighter.

I'm not a very big book reader these days, but I want to get the Thrawn novel when it comes out on paperback. How long does that generally take after the release of the hardcover?

Oh and btw, Obi-Wan is a crappy pilot who hates flying and he still managed to outrun that missile, right? ;-)

On 11.10.2017 at 10:09 AM, flyboymb said:

With that in mind, the Imperials really had no reason to up their fighter game as they had no reason to believe that cheap TIEs weren't the end all be all support for a supposedly invincible fleet of Star Destroyers.

All of the sudden, here comes the Death Star, plans are stolen, Imperials don't think this matters because the Rebels can't field a force large enough to threaten it, promptly gets blown up by Rebel fighters. Here comes ol' Vader talking about how he blew up like a bajillion Rebels but those TIE Fighters were just too garbage to help out.

There is just one mistake here. Black Squadron was present with iirc 8 fighters + Vader in the battle of Yavin. They still managed to stop all but one Rebel fighter and only a heavily armed Anti-Fighter equipped YT-1300 interfered in the last second, else the complete Rebel Forces would have been intercepted before they could have done any damage.

TIE-Fighters are garbage is a myth. Academy Pilots are garbage and the empire uses world war I and II tactics for their pilot training program. Those pilots who survive their first tour of duty become quite the aces, everyone else usually just dies before becoming a competent pilot. WW1 and WW2 both have about 95% of all victories achieved by about 3% of the pilots. Once you have enough experience as pilot to become an ace, you are able to secure victory over most non-ace pilots who lack this experience. No top gun style training program means that pilots learn in combat. They either survive and git gud or they die in battle. Most rebels at Yavin died to the aces of the Back Squadron while they outnumbered them about 3 to 1.

In this contest the TIE-Fighter makes are rather nice training tool when you expect the 90% of the green horns to die in one. We have seen blood stripe Interceptors as well in Rebels and those aces had no trouble at all with normal Rebel Forces.

Another issue here is perspective. We are seeing the action mostly when main characters are involved, which means the imperials are destined to die, which is another reason for the bad reputation of the TIE-Fighter which actually is a pretty solid ship.

7 hours ago, flyboymb said:

30 ISDs wasn't good enough to stop the Rebels from destroying the Death Star. 2 more would be the tipping point in you opinion? Again how would they wedge themselves into that shaft to go after the Falcon? You forget that even if the Empire had 500 more ISDs and reduced the Rebel fleet to rubble, if the Falcon gets into that shaft the Emperor and Vader are dead and the Rebels win.

12 hours ago, Major Tom said:

Not trying to be obtuse, but is there a current canon source for Black Squadron being the only TIEs launched at Yarvin?

The first source that states this is the Death Star Technical Companion and it was Canon for twenty four years.

(edited by yours truly.)

14 hours ago, Giledhil said:

And a precedent makes it obvious that it would happen any time without question? Well thought.

I'm using 'precendent' here in the legal and publishing sense, hence my specific wording.

If it occurs as an earlier event or action that is regarded as an example or guide to be considered in subsequent similar circumstances.

(sorry lawyer here)

5 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

Oh and btw, Obi-Wan is a crappy pilot who hates flying and he still managed to outrun that missile, right? ;-)

With a semi-magical sense of precognition. I was actually thinking of the buzzdroid warhead from RoTS which would have pretty well taken him out of the fight if Anakin and he weren't 'planning' on crash landing anyway.

There is just one mistake here. Black Squadron was present with iirc 8 fighters + Vader in the battle of Yavin. They still managed to stop all but one Rebel fighter and only a heavily armed Anti-Fighter equipped YT-1300 interfered in the last second, else the complete Rebel Forces would have been intercepted before they could have done any damage.

TIE-Fighters are garbage is a myth. Academy Pilots are garbage and the empire uses world war I and II tactics for their pilot training program. Those pilots who survive their first tour of duty become quite the aces, everyone else usually just dies before becoming a competent pilot. WW1 and WW2 both have about 95% of all victories achieved by about 3% of the pilots. Once you have enough experience as pilot to become an ace, you are able to secure victory over most non-ace pilots who lack this experience. No top gun style training program means that pilots learn in combat. They either survive and git gud or they die in battle. Most rebels at Yavin died to the aces of the Back Squadron while they outnumbered them about 3 to 1.

And as far as things look it seems that every member of Black Squadron was taken out except for Vader's wingmen by the time the Falcon entered the fight. If this were just a middle of the vacuum of space fight, you could tout the supremacy of TIE Fighters engaging the Rebels at a 3:1 disadvantage. They also had a battlestation's worth of weaponry, a significant portion of of their losses due to being shot in the back while flying in a straight line, and a Dark Lord of the Sith. Considering the last aspect wiped out a Rebel fleet pretty well singlehandedly in a fighter, you can't discount Vader's contribution to the fight in order to enhance the TIE Fighter's. Heck, in Legends, Vader was jumping to every instance of where he made an appearance in every telling of the Battle of Yavin and still had time to get back in the trenches every once in awhile to stop the Rebels from hitting the exhaust port. That takes more than a slight bit of talent.

In any case, Black Squadron was likely made up of the pilots who were so good that they managed to survive Vader's wrath on any given mission (well odds are the guy that crashed into Vader wouldn't have maintained that if he wasn't lucky enough to hit the trench wall first). They also likely had coordination with the surface batteries to at least limit the maneuvering options of Rebel fighters (the batteries knew when to stop firing when Vader entered the trench, that is by no means the limits of their coordination).

But in the end, 100% of Black Squadron died. 10% of the Rebels escaped. Their Ace status could only get them so far.

In this contest the TIE-Fighter makes are rather nice training tool when you expect the 90% of the green horns to die in one. We have seen blood stripe Interceptors as well in Rebels and those aces had no trouble at all with normal Rebel Forces.

Another issue here is perspective. We are seeing the action mostly when main characters are involved, which means the imperials are destined to die, which is another reason for the bad reputation of the TIE-Fighter which actually is a pretty solid ship.

Yes, in Interceptors, a vast improvement over the baseline TIE. I'll point to a WWII source of pilots who were consistently forced to pilot an increasingly antiquated fighter regardless of veterancy. The IJN maintained dogged use of the A6M with various improvements until the end of the war. New models were introduced, but nothing that was a marked enough improvement to offset new Allied planes entering the fight which, through tactics and technology, were able to maximize the Reisen's weaknesses to the point where the majority of Japan's aces were dead while America's rookie pilots were still in the sky. In the end, the fighter saw an advantage of 12:1 kill ratio turned into it being primarily used as a manned cruise missile.

A skilled pilot could still compete with Allied pilots, but that was pretty much it; he could bring the fighter on par with the better tech, not make his plane into something that it simply was not. In the end, that technology disadvantage meant that the best of aces could perish if they weren't flying the best game they could every time they went into the sky. This does not discount the fact that the A6M was a wondrous and versatile, but even the best of weapons loses its potency with time and must be replaced with something that matches the technology of your enemy. Otherwise you end up with something like this.

As for the Empire losing just based off of the Emperor and Vader dying... Well that's simply what happened. I wouldn't have expected the Empire to fall with Palp's death any more than the Soviet Union did after Stalin's, but Endor was enough of a victory to spur the galaxy into open rebellion which the Imperial military could not withstand. I guess in the end Tarkin was somewhat right. No amount of Star Destroyers could keep every system in line without the right amount of fear keeping the populace in check.

5 hours ago, DarthEnderX said:

I'm not a very big book reader these days, but I want to get the Thrawn novel when it comes out on paperback. How long does that generally take after the release of the hardcover?

Going by the other books, looks like between 6-9 months is a reasonable estimate. Thrawn came out in April so probably you can expect the paperback around December or January.

Jim

6 hours ago, Imperial Advisor Arem Heshvaun said:

I'm using 'precendent' here in the legal and publishing sense, hence my specific wording.

If it occurs as an earlier event or action that is regarded as an example or guide to be considered in subsequent similar circumstances.

(sorry lawyer here)

Except facts doesn't work like law.
Thrawn managed to do an action with a low probability of success (let's say because of his high skills, but I'd say it's just relevant to the scenario at that moment, otherwise it seems too easy for the rebels); nothing says he will the next time.

Of course the precedent sets us to think that Thrawn has a probability to succeed again, but it is less than certain (and Endor is one ******* enournous mess of a battle !).