1 hour ago, Forresto said:

Your trying to rationalize what normal people would do when the clones are basically slaves, and they're intelligent enough to understand that. The fact that the jedi are willing enough to exploit that to win a war should be enough to cause resentment amongst the ranks of even the most disciplined. The Jedi are not noble, they're slave masters plain and simple and honestly had what was coming. They sold their souls to win a war to ensure their own political stability and power.

It doesn't matter how nice a slavemaster is, they still hold the chains, and if your the slave your completely justified in killing that person to gain your freedom.

In the pre TCW canon, and to a degree even in it, the clones intermix with locals on planets and experience tastes of what its like to live a free normal independent life. The clones will never get that and they know this and yet ironically have to fight for the freedom of others. That would breed resentment as well, targeted at those who lead them. Yes Palpatine as supreme chancellor is also responsible as is the senate but its the jedi who become the poster boy for the immoral war machine of the Republic to the Clones.

Those clones who form attachments to different Jedi? Stockholm Syndrome. Remember the clone on Salecumai with the Twilek and kids? The one who became a traitor and spy for the Separatists? Even in TCW we see flashes of this.

Considering there are only 10,000 jedi and at least 5 to 6 million clone troopers, although I think there are far more, most wouldn't have formed an attachment to their generals and commanders. Order 66 is entirely justified and considering the lives of the clones I can totally buy them turning on their jedi masters. Most Jedi probably were not like the nice we see on TCW such as Plo Koon or Anakain. Most were more likely similar to Ayala Secrua and Luminara Unduli, traditional straight laced adherents to the Jedi code, who were not cruel but very indifferent and unattached to their troopers as is the Jedi way.

Or even like Krell with open disdain for the clones.

1 hour ago, YwingAce said:

Or even like Krell with open disdain for the clones.

Oh god dammit, not that guy!
He is inofficially not cannon!


This **** Account merging did not work for me and I missed a bunch of disscussion again.
Well I have a new account for the time being, until my old account is fixed, if it ever will be...

So about Rebels stuff, I gotta say I am not looking forward to them introducing the X-Wing.

I'm just not. I feel like they're going to make it some end-all-be-all katanaeque fighting machine, which I think is lame. They already nerfed the A-Wing into a cheap knock-off TIE to do it; why does the X-Wing deserve to be upgraded so? Yeah, I get that it was the ship the heroes used but that's just because it was the main rebel starfighter, like an AK-47 you join the rebels you get one and what you do with it is up to you. "There are many like it, but this one is mine." y'know?

The Squints came out before it. The Defender is coming out before it. They're ramping up power from ship to ship and so it stands to reason that the X-Wing is going to be even more powerful than the Defender which is silly. There weren't a lot of Defenders and they were not cheap, but there were a metric ton of X-Wings in the films. Making it that powerful a ship that common; it just makes the heroes less cool.

"Wow, Biggs had an X-Wing and managed to get blown up by a regular TIE. What a doofus."

or

"Luke blew up the Death Star, so what? We all knew he would do it, I mean after all he was driving an X-Wing ."

Maybe it's just me? I've never been a fan of simply-superior weapons, cause I feel there has to be balance or else everything else should be phased out. But I dunno guys, what do you think? You think the X-Wing is the last fighter the Rebels will ever make?

6 hours ago, Forresto said:

Your trying to rationalize what normal people would do when the clones are basically slaves, and they're intelligent enough to understand that. The fact that the jedi are willing enough to exploit that to win a war should be enough to cause resentment amongst the ranks of even the most disciplined. The Jedi are not noble, they're slave masters plain and simple and honestly had what was coming. They sold their souls to win a war to ensure their own political stability and power.

So they're smart enough to know that the Jedi are their slave masters because they give them their orders, but not smart enough to know that the guy that is above the Jedi who gives them Order 66 is somehow not also their slave master?

That's like hating the guys in the field whipping you but thinking the plantation owner that tells them to whip you is totally a cool guy...

6 minutes ago, OneKelvin said:

So about Rebels stuff, I gotta say I am not looking forward to them introducing the X-Wing.

I'm just not. I feel like they're going to make it some end-all-be-all katanaeque fighting machine, which I think is lame. They already nerfed the A-Wing into a cheap knock-off TIE to do it; why does the X-Wing deserve to be upgraded so? Yeah, I get that it was the ship the heroes used but that's just because it was the main rebel starfighter, like an AK-47 you join the rebels you get one and what you do with it is up to you. "There are many like it, but this one is mine." y'know?

The Squints came out before it. The Defender is coming out before it. They're ramping up power from ship to ship and so it stands to reason that the X-Wing is going to be even more powerful than the Defender which is silly. There weren't a lot of Defenders and they were not cheap, but there were a metric ton of X-Wings in the films. Making it that powerful a ship that common; it just makes the heroes less cool.

"Wow, Biggs had an X-Wing and managed to get blown up by a regular TIE. What a doofus."

or

"Luke blew up the Death Star, so what? We all knew he would do it, I mean after all he was driving an X-Wing ."

Maybe it's just me? I've never been a fan of simply-superior weapons, cause I feel there has to be balance or else everything else should be phased out. But I dunno guys, what do you think? You think the X-Wing is the last fighter the Rebels will ever make?

When did they reveal the X-Wings were going to be showing up in Rebels? Did I miss something in one of the season 3 trailers?

I mean, I know they'll inevitably show up, but has something been revealed I missed?

They've said it's going to happen for a while. And there are no X-wings in Rebels yet sooo.....

I know I'm biased, but I think it's not unreasonable to be. TFA really made me grumpy with the using nothing but old ships. Yeah I get it, it was super-X-wings fighting super-TIE-fighters over a super-Death-Star. So what? When everything's super... nothing is. It's still X-wings, it's still TIEs, it's still a Death Star, and I just don't know how to get hyped about X-wings being the amazing, starring, super-ship for a third time.

But it's not just me watching this and I'd like to know what ya'll think.

(Edit.)

That's

1.OT

2.TFA

3.Rebels

15 hours ago, OneKelvin said:

There weren't a lot of Defenders and they were not cheap, but there were a metric ton of X-Wings in the films.

I'm pretty sure that 1 X-Wing weights more than a metric ton, tho...

Bleh, no new episode till Feb 18th.

Well plenty of X-Wings get vaped by regular ole Tie Fighters in Rogue One. In fact most X Wing deaths on screen I think are attributed to regular Tie Fighters then any other Imperial ship.

I wouldnt worry about the Defender, I dont think we're ever going to see X Wings fight them so no worry of a power creep there.

I dont mind X-Wings but I never got the impression they were more then solid, versatile ships with decent offensive and defensive capabilities. Arent Tie Fighters meant to have more firepower and are more manuverable?

On 1/27/2017 at 1:06 PM, OneKelvin said:

So about Rebels stuff, I gotta say I am not looking forward to them introducing the X-Wing.

I'm just not. I feel like they're going to make it some end-all-be-all katanaeque fighting machine, which I think is lame. They already nerfed the A-Wing into a cheap knock-off TIE to do it; why does the X-Wing deserve to be upgraded so? Yeah, I get that it was the ship the heroes used but that's just because it was the main rebel starfighter, like an AK-47 you join the rebels you get one and what you do with it is up to you. "There are many like it, but this one is mine." y'know?

The Squints came out before it. The Defender is coming out before it. They're ramping up power from ship to ship and so it stands to reason that the X-Wing is going to be even more powerful than the Defender which is silly. There weren't a lot of Defenders and they were not cheap, but there were a metric ton of X-Wings in the films. Making it that powerful a ship that common; it just makes the heroes less cool.

"Wow, Biggs had an X-Wing and managed to get blown up by a regular TIE. What a doofus."

or

"Luke blew up the Death Star, so what? We all knew he would do it, I mean after all he was driving an X-Wing ."

Maybe it's just me? I've never been a fan of simply-superior weapons, cause I feel there has to be balance or else everything else should be phased out. But I dunno guys, what do you think? You think the X-Wing is the last fighter the Rebels will ever make?

Who said x-wing would be some superior end all ship? The defender is a threat to the rebels because it's a shielded TIE with excessive firepower. It can still be downed, just not as easily as the unshielded standard tie. The real threat is that now imp pilots can make a mistake and live to learn from it. The x-wing is just an all arounder that the rebels will love because it gives them a jack of all trades, and that is priceless to a small rebellion .

As for the nerfing of the A-wings, these aren't the RotJ upgraded interceptors. These are the cheap, simple to upkeep, small enough to shove full squadrons into small hangars while remaining a cost effective enough fighter of choice for a cash strapped fledgling rebellion.

Back to the x-wing, if the X-wing was the end all ship, why would the rebels even bother to have Y-wings or A-wings?

On 1/27/2017 at 1:12 PM, Derpzilla88 said:

When did they reveal the X-Wings were going to be showing up in Rebels? Did I miss something in one of the season 3 trailers?

I mean, I know they'll inevitably show up, but has something been revealed I missed?

No, it's just that "inevitably shows up" thing.

Which is to say - we've got the 'season 3, part 2' trailer, which usually (previous two seasons precedent) features clips from the episodes they've "finished"...usually the next half-dozen or so from when it picks up, and then the last couple before the finale. Usually along those lines.

So we can assume near the finale of the season, the Empire will have TIE Defenders (we see that in the trailers) and the Rebels will not have X-Wings (we don't see those in the trailers).

IE., the Empire gets TIE Defenders before the Rebels get X-Wings. And every time something new shows up, here, they feel the need to have it one-up whatever was there before.

Additionally, the show producers have indicated the X-Wings will be coming to the series at some point, but "they want it to be special".

So, 2 + 2 = ?

41 minutes ago, Gadgetron said:

Who said x-wing would be some superior end all ship? The defender is a threat to the rebels because it's a shielded TIE with excessive firepower. It can still be downed, just not as easily as the unshielded standard tie. The real threat is that now imp pilots can make a mistake and live to learn from it. The x-wing is just an all arounder that the rebels will love because it gives them a jack of all trades, and that is priceless to a small rebellion .

As for the nerfing of the A-wings, these aren't the RotJ upgraded interceptors. These are the cheap, simple to upkeep, small enough to shove full squadrons into small hangars while remaining a cost effective enough fighter of choice for a cash strapped fledgling rebellion.

Back to the x-wing, if the X-wing was the end all ship, why would the rebels even bother to have Y-wings or A-wings?

They wouldn't. There's no specific dogfighting scenes in RotJ or ANH that indicate that Y-wings or A-wings are any better than X-wings; it's just an informed ability from later novels that explain why there are no A-wings in ANH.

All they'd have to say is that X-wings are the best and so the Empire just gave up on TIE Defenders and Advanceds and decided to focus on swarms that they were used to, and that the only reason A-wings are still around is because they're cheap and some people can't afford X-wings.

Just look at TFA. See any A-wings? See any Y-wings? Nope.

The X-wing is the best interceptor of all the fighters, it did unsupported bombing on the StarMuncher Machine, it has shields, hyperdrive, cappuccino machine, slot for your best-pally droid. In short it is the beat-everything starfighter, a perfect creation of the Omnimessiah the STC of which was discovered by the Rebels in their time of direst need and was passed down to their descendants the Resistance. The Codex Rebellion does not support deviation from the Holy X-Wing, and all other ships in the Rebellion were destroyed shortly afterwards in accordance with the gospel. The tech-heretics of the Hosnian System tried to create a fleet of new ships but were smote down for their heresy by the wrath of the Machine God in the form of his servant the StarMuncher Machine. It was only when the few survivors turned back to the only true starfighter His Holy X-Wing that they were able to overcome His test of devotion and destroy his mechanical servant.

S'what happened.

No exaggerations here.

Only salty people exaggerate, and I am clearly not salty, so everything I type is true and unexaggerated. Logic.

But the T-70 isn't an x wing that brought down the death stars, it's just the evolution of an effective design.

It uses a similar design style, it's kind of like how the F-15 and F-22 share many similarities, but they aren't the same though. Visually they both have 2 engines, 2 large surface area swept wings, 2 vertical stabilizers, missiles, yet one is 25 years older than the other and no one's going to pretend they are the same.

I'm willing to bet we're going to see new fighters in the next movie, I'll bet we see new A Wings, another effective design that evolved over time.

I guess I just don't see why someone would be afraid of x wings showing up in a show about rebels.

No, if T-65 is F-15A T-70 is like F-15C.

F-22 is a completely different craft, leagues above all the previous ones.

I'm not afraid of them showing up; I'm afraid of what they'll be when they show up.

The F-15 is a warplane meant for straight-up dogfights in visual range with other warplanes. Underslung weapons, high maneuver speed, etc.

The F-22 and the F-35 are stealthy weapons delivery systems. They look like an F-15 more or less, but have no right angles, a slower max speed, and internal weapons bays. They engage their targets beyond visual range and are actually worse in many respects than the F-15 in a straight-up dogfight.

The T-65 X-wing does the exact same thing an A-wing does just better. A T-70 does the exact same thing an X-wing does just better. Same weapons, same tactics, same ship.

A Defender adds shields, hyperdrive, and cost. An Intercepter adds speed and cost. An Line TIE is cheap. They're balanced, different, and have different roles.

An A-wing shoots guns. A Y-wing drops bombs. An X-wing shoots guns and drops bombs with shields and hyperdrive and being cheaper than a Defender.

3 minutes ago, eMeM said:

No, if T-65 is F-15A T-70 is like F-15C.

F-22 is a completely different craft, leagues above all the previous ones.

For different things. The F-22 is worse at interception than the F-15 because it's designed for stealth combat from far away. You can't pull up to other fighters and tell them they're violating your airspace in it because you've given up all of the stealthy advantage it was designed for. You can kill fighters from far away in it, or ignore them; but as soon as they can see you you're just as good off if not better off in an F-15 because you have a higher combat speed and don't have to "unholster" your weapons.

http://www.businessinsider.com/when-f-15-better-than-f-22-f-35-2016-8

^ You can read more here but the gist is that they all use the same basic level of technology and the same weapons. The computers get replaced, software gets updated, and technologically they're all on the same level - the finer points are just specialized for different things. The most techy things on an F-22 are the missiles it shoots: the plane is basically just a low-profile F-15, and the lowering of the profile makes it less effective for different duties.

Unlike X-wings which are good at everything.

I think that's the last salt in my system. I'm now at the "dejected resignation" phase.

It's not like the Empire was going to win anyway. Just wish the canon gods gave em' a little chance now and again.

That's only a concern in peace time, during a war "interception" means something different and fighters are designed for war.

F-22 is better at everything. It has better radar and stealth for BVR combat, and better acceleration (more powerfull engines) and agility (amongs others - crazy trust vectoring) for dogfights.

The only advantage of the 15 is that it can carry more missiles... and it is cheaper.

Maybe A-wings are just cheaper.

Another possible reason why there are no A+-wings or Y+-wings or B+-wings in TFA (stolen partly from another site) is cost. Keeping 3/4 fighter types in service is more expensive than keeping one in service. That's why the USN has only kept the F/A-18s in service, instead of having an interceptor (F-14), strike bomber (A-7), and multi-role (F/A-18).
In Star Wars, the X-wing is the multirole craft for the rebels, the A-wing is the interceptor, and the Y-wing is the strike bomber. Budget cuts mean you get to pick one, so you pick the one that can sort of do all roles.

5 hours ago, OneKelvin said:

An A-wing shoots guns. A Y-wing drops bombs. An X-wing shoots guns and drops bombs with shields and hyperdrive and being cheaper than a Defender.

A-Wing is in interceptor/space superiority fighter, the Y-Wing is a bomber, the X-Wing is a multi-role fighter. It comes with its own bag of problems like lack of speed and agility, no rear firing guns, no gunner, and no bomb capabilities. The X-Wing is basically a super hornet, while the T-70 is an eurofighter, just to throw some more not really fitting aerospace analogies into the mix. And as I am getting started, let's call the A-Wing in RotJ a ME262 and the one from rebels … whatever agile, but not top of the line dogfighter comes to your mind. In Combat with the protectorate fighters we see that other space superior fighters outclass them, we really can't blame it all on phoenix squadron pilots.

Mind you it all comes down to the pilots. An A Wing in the hands of awful pilot will be chewed apart whereas one piloted by someone who actually knows how to fly one optimally will run rings around standard ties.

Regardless of model we know the mortality rate of X Wing pilots is very high. I find it strange people say A-Wings suck but just as many X-Wings were destroyed in the movies and no one says that about X Wings.

On 1/26/2017 at 4:00 PM, OneKelvin said:

[...]

There are plenty of instances in real history of perfectly civilized and rational human beings doing horrific things to their own people because of loyalty to a figure or a cause. I think that many of us have skewed perspectives from living in free-ish and moral societies; that it is not uncommon to think that humans are just basically good and have some innate loyalty or ethics or whatnot.

[...]

For an interesting and real life example of this you should look up the 1963 Milgram experiment and if you can the original videos. Otherwise good and decent people can, and without much effort, be coerced into doing horrific acts. Of course there are all kinds of reasons including authority figures, expectations, etc. Truly scary.

Could the Clones kill the Jedi without a chip. Probably but some would have resisted based on their relationship with the Jedi. I chip might have insured the order being carried out more successfully.

On 1/29/2017 at 7:27 AM, FlyingToaster said:

Another possible reason why there are no A+-wings or Y+-wings or B+-wings in TFA (stolen partly from another site) is cost. Keeping 3/4 fighter types in service is more expensive than keeping one in service. That's why the USN has only kept the F/A-18s in service, instead of having an interceptor (F-14), strike bomber (A-7), and multi-role (F/A-18).
In Star Wars, the X-wing is the multirole craft for the rebels, the A-wing is the interceptor, and the Y-wing is the strike bomber. Budget cuts mean you get to pick one, so you pick the one that can sort of do all roles.

You're thinking with your lore brain, and I appreciate your creativity. If they had given this justification in the movie I could have swallowed it.

But they didn't! And from a RL perspective, unless the price of pixels increased sharply since the prequels they should have had the money for more than two different CGI fighter models in the entire movie.

Pretty sure the Awing is coming back in what we now know as "The Last Jedi"

On 1/29/2017 at 0:02 AM, OneKelvin said:

They wouldn't. There's no specific dogfighting scenes in RotJ or ANH that indicate that Y-wings or A-wings are any better than X-wings; it's just an informed ability from later novels that explain why there are no A-wings in ANH.

There are no A-Wings in ANH because Rebels has shown us that they disintegrate as soon as Darth Vader even thinks about getting in his fighter. They are in RotJ because he's distracted chasing down his kid.

17 hours ago, skotothalamos said:

There are no A-Wings in ANH because Rebels has shown us that they disintegrate as soon as Darth Vader even thinks about getting in his fighter. They are in RotJ because he's distracted chasing down his kid.

This!