Well Hera's assumption that Sabine's internal suffering "hurts far worse then anything that lightsaber can do"is hilarious. I'm fairly certain losing all your limbs is maybe far worse. You have external suffering on top of all the internal.

Anakin would raise his hand to agree with you, but...

And a little more of the Star Wars universe dies, lol. A pilot lectures a Jedi on how to train somebody with a lightsaber, and an angry teenage girl possesses the skills and reflexes to out-duel a trained and experienced Jedi because she is angry.

Sigh. A person with better knowledge of the student tells the teacher how to find a way to get through to the student. Sabine starts opening up and Kanan leaves enough room for her to keep going. Try again.

Yeah, Kanan could have put her down at any moment, but he had finally gotten her to open up so he was letting her get it all out. Earlier in the episode, he had been stumped and frustrated with how bottled up, how "Mandelorian" she was being.

And a little more of the Star Wars universe dies, lol. A pilot lectures a Jedi on how to train somebody with a lightsaber, and an angry teenage girl possesses the skills and reflexes to out-duel a trained and experienced Jedi because she is angry.

Sigh. A person with better knowledge of the student tells the teacher how to find a way to get through to the student. Sabine starts opening up and Kanan leaves enough room for her to keep going. Try again.

A person with no knowledge of the subject insists that the experienced educator is doing it wrong, lol.

The good news is, seems like you're now qualified to be Secretary of Education.

Of course, still doesn't answer the second part of the statement. Try again.

Nope, still trying too hard.

You could look at the force as the raw input and the light/dark side approaches as different catalysts that lead to different manifestations.

Of course, the fact that they have a concept of good and evil, yet still decide to grant power to Force users regardless, while still altering how that power manifests itself, makes that morality fairly alien.

Unless it just happens that there are also good and evil midichlorians, and the good ones are drawn to good people, while the evil ones are drawn to evil people.

But if that's the case, when a Jedi falls do the Dark Side, do the midichlorians in their body change? Or were their midichlorians always evil and they were constantly being pushed towards the Dark Side the entire time?

Food for thought.

Midichlorians don't explain the will of the force or how it works. They are just an indicator of force-potential in any given person.

And a little more of the Star Wars universe dies, lol. A pilot lectures a Jedi on how to train somebody with a lightsaber, and an angry teenage girl possesses the skills and reflexes to out-duel a trained and experienced Jedi because she is angry.

Sigh. A person with better knowledge of the student tells the teacher how to find a way to get through to the student. Sabine starts opening up and Kanan leaves enough room for her to keep going. Try again.

A person with no knowledge of the subject insists that the experienced educator is doing it wrong, lol.

The good news is, seems like you're now qualified to be Secretary of Education.

Of course, still doesn't answer the second part of the statement. Try again.

You're trying too hard to find something to hate to justify your hatred.

Including losing the argument by resorting to personal attacks.

What's next, you going to pull a Strawman Argument? Move the goalposts? Break out Godwin's Law and compare your opponent to Hitler?

I don't mind explaining Magic scientifically and I disagree that this excludes mysticism.

As an compareable example: Warhammer 40k: Psykers are individuals that use their Willpower to controll the raw energies of the Warp (A different plain of existence) to some degree.
There are different categories of Psykers and all of them fit onto a scale, but (almost) every human has psychic potential, due to their presence in the Warp, aka their Souls, which get eaten by Daemons (not Demons, mind you)
There is a lot of science in here, but there are also Chaos Gods which reign over the Warp and can bend it and reallity to some degree, so there is also some Mysticism.


Since I am probably an equal Warhammer Nerd I don't mind Midiclorians that much. And why can't you clone them? Well maybe they didn't figure out how to synthesise them? Some materials are very hard if not almost impossible to reliably synthesise.

So yeah, they are maybe not the best thing, but definetly not the worst.

What's next, you going to pull a Strawman Argument? Move the goalposts? Break out Godwin's Law and compare your opponent to Hitler?

Is your name Adam? Because that was Savage!

I see it as:

1. Midichlorians are attracted to force sensitivity. More midichlorians, more force power

2. midichlorians react based off hormones in the bloodstream. Rage & fear = Dark Side Balance = Light Side.

And a little more of the Star Wars universe dies, lol. A pilot lectures a Jedi on how to train somebody with a lightsaber, and an angry teenage girl possesses the skills and reflexes to out-duel a trained and experienced Jedi because she is angry.

Sigh. A person with better knowledge of the student tells the teacher how to find a way to get through to the student. Sabine starts opening up and Kanan leaves enough room for her to keep going. Try again.

A person with no knowledge of the subject insists that the experienced educator is doing it wrong, lol.

The good news is, seems like you're now qualified to be Secretary of Education.

Of course, still doesn't answer the second part of the statement. Try again.

You're trying too hard to find something to hate to justify your hatred.

Including losing the argument by resorting to personal attacks.

"I won guys because the other guy poked fun at me" So let's get this straight. You were passive aggressive, using personally offensive language such as "sigh", and "try again" in an attempt to invalidate my opinion, and now you're going to cry that I made fun of you? By your "logic", you lost first, lol.

Here's the reality: One of us is a school trained weapons instructor who also taught at the Marine Corps weapons instructor school , training other instructors. The other guy has a character from the prequels in his avatar and is trying to give lectures on character development and story structure. Not sayin', just sayin'.

I mean, sure, you can pretend I'm "trying too hard". but let's be realistic about who is actually trying too hard to defend the indefensible. Hera has no insight or expertise. The idea of her attempting to lecture Kanan on how to give lightsaber instructions is ludicrous. If Sabine is too undisciplined to learn how to lightsaber fight the proper way, maybe she's just not qualified to be doing this in the first place. The idea of just accelerating somebody's weapons instruction with an unfamiliar system by immediately accelerating them to live combat is... idiotic. It's like Kanan suggesting Hera teach somebody how to fly by just trusting them and taking the Ghost out for a spin.

Either way, you still didn't address the idea that Sabine is able to defeat a Jedi in lightsaber combat just by virtue of getting angry . Which, regardless of your ignorance of safe and proper weapons training, is a breach of the universe's mythos either way. But hey, keep trying so hard to justify your blind defenses of bad writing.

Good job on citing Godwin, though. Talk about a strawman, lol. I always enjoy when somebody uses words they don't understand, especially when they wield it as an insult. Run along.

JFC you **** nerds, calm down it's a cartoon.

Here's the reality: One of us is a school trained weapons instructor who also taught at the Marine Corps weapons instructor school , training other instructors.

No offense, but a guy claiming to be something on the internet is not a reality just because they say it is.

It's not exactly uncommon for someone to lie about what they do in real life to try and seem like an expert on something to win an argument.

Here's the reality: One of us is a school trained weapons instructor who also taught at the Marine Corps weapons instructor school , training other instructors.

No offense, but a guy claiming to be something on the internet is not a reality just because they say it is.

It's not exactly uncommon for someone to lie about what they do in real life to try and seem like an expert on something to win an argument.

Except that I have a link in my signature to my personal website which has my bio on it, complete with pictures, lol. If I was trying to win this specific argument with fake expertise, you have to give me credit for working on the long con.

Or, maybe kids shouldn't throw temper tantrums every time somebody doesn't like the same thing they do, and get all passive aggressive over it. Especially with snotty dismissals inferring expertise they don't have. One thing you'll never see me do is give advice on how to build bridges, because I'm not a structural engineer nor an architect. Probably shouldn't educate people on weapons training if the most you've ever done with live combat is to drool over samurai swords on a replica weapons site.

And a little more of the Star Wars universe dies, lol. A pilot lectures a Jedi on how to train somebody with a lightsaber, and an angry teenage girl possesses the skills and reflexes to out-duel a trained and experienced Jedi because she is angry.

Sigh. A person with better knowledge of the student tells the teacher how to find a way to get through to the student. Sabine starts opening up and Kanan leaves enough room for her to keep going. Try again.

A person with no knowledge of the subject insists that the experienced educator is doing it wrong, lol.

The good news is, seems like you're now qualified to be Secretary of Education.

Of course, still doesn't answer the second part of the statement. Try again.

You're trying too hard to find something to hate to justify your hatred.

Including losing the argument by resorting to personal attacks.

"I won guys because the other guy poked fun at me" So let's get this straight. You were passive aggressive, using personally offensive language such as "sigh", and "try again" in an attempt to invalidate my opinion, and now you're going to cry that I made fun of you? By your "logic", you lost first, lol.

Here's the reality: One of us is a school trained weapons instructor who also taught at the Marine Corps weapons instructor school , training other instructors. The other guy has a character from the prequels in his avatar and is trying to give lectures on character development and story structure. Not sayin', just sayin'.

I mean, sure, you can pretend I'm "trying too hard". but let's be realistic about who is actually trying too hard to defend the indefensible. Hera has no insight or expertise. The idea of her attempting to lecture Kanan on how to give lightsaber instructions is ludicrous. If Sabine is too undisciplined to learn how to lightsaber fight the proper way, maybe she's just not qualified to be doing this in the first place. The idea of just accelerating somebody's weapons instruction with an unfamiliar system by immediately accelerating them to live combat is... idiotic. It's like Kanan suggesting Hera teach somebody how to fly by just trusting them and taking the Ghost out for a spin.

Either way, you still didn't address the idea that Sabine is able to defeat a Jedi in lightsaber combat just by virtue of getting angry . Which, regardless of your ignorance of safe and proper weapons training, is a breach of the universe's mythos either way. But hey, keep trying so hard to justify your blind defenses of bad writing.

Good job on citing Godwin, though. Talk about a strawman, lol. I always enjoy when somebody uses words they don't understand, especially when they wield it as an insult. Run along.

Okay, first of all that was not me. Second of all lets calm down here. My initial post was way too loaded, I apologize for that.

However I still don't see any merit to your points (and you also haven't done a great job conveying them). Teaching someone is not just about knowing the subject matter, it is also about knowing the person, especially when the pair of teacher and student have a familiar relationship. Kanan has lost some connection with Sabine by interacting with Ezra mostly, which is why Hera knows how to reach Sabine better than he does. You also assume Kanan knows what he is doing - well he doesn't. He never learned how to teach anyone how to use a lightsaber, his own training wasn't complete.

And Sabine doesn't defeat Kanan at all. He quite clearly is always in control and only lets her push onwards because she has to get over her inner barriers, revealing what she kept down.

The moment you want to write something, but it would just fule the flames so you keep it to yourself...

I also think that Kanan was letting her go (hehe) but during the fight I thought aswell that he was honestly loosing and I only got it after she vented.

Also: #SabinebuilttheMassshadowgeneratorconfirmed

Perhaps there's a religious undertone? Maybe it's that people want to believe in the force and that you just can't believe in something you can actually see/quantify. I mean, I've been a science-loving God-fearing guy my whole life so I don't really see the clash; but maybe some people feel you have to choose? It can be supernatural or scientific not both?

Here's the thing though, if you want to dissect magic scientifically, that's one thing. But pure science is inherently amoral.

The Force is decidedly NOT. The morality of the user has DRASTIC effects on how the Force manifests itself. It's non-scientific on a fundamental level.

Good and evil are philosophical and subjective concepts, but the Force responds along the lines of these concepts. You can't scientifically measure good and evil, so you shouldn't be able to scientifically measure the Force.

I've just never thought that way. I've always seen "good" actions as those that conserve energy in the long run and "bad" one as those that expend it unnecessarily.

You rob somebody, there are effects even if they don't know it was you: a need is created by the lack of whatever you stole and if they are so inclined another robbery occurs to replace that ad infinitum. Work, time, and therefore energy are wasted redistributing an existing item rather than creating new ones or discovering ways to do without or improving said item.

Murder wastes an entire human being, putting an end to all of their original ideas, halting their projects, creating a need in those dependent on them, and more time and more energy is wasted while a new human being fills their shoes.

Adultery destroys trust and weakens the physical bond within a couple, simple co-operation between spouses takes longer, projects that require good communication like raising a child or creating wealth suffer due to the lack of it, even if they do not know what is going on. If all these people do know what is going on then we end up with vengeance, more wasted time, more resources spent on destroying other resources, etc.

All good actions create order and conserve energy, all bad actions destroy order and further entropy. That's just what good and bad mean, it's not particularly subjective, and you can decide to be either based on a logical evaluation of the consequences at any given time. I'd say bad actions create chaos but using the word "create" in that context makes very little sense.

"Hey Bob, look what I've made!"

"What did you make Bill?"

"A mess!"

" "

So yeah, look at the Jedi. They create many things that increase order in the lives of those that use them - temples, charities, libraries; and they very seldom "use" the force in flashy and excessive ways. They listen to it, use it passively to enhance physical skills, and on occasion use simple telekinesis and the like for things their bodies cannot do. They conserve the force and are content for doing so.

The Sith steal existing knowledge, take things from the Jedi at great cost, grind through apprentices to create the strongest one, and use the force for everything - lighting, life draining, alchemy, flight, excessive telekinesis. They waste the force looking for more power in the force and thus are never satisfied.

At least, that's what I think.

Argh!

Sigh.

Lol.

Feh.

Blerg!

It's like watching a train wreck in slow motion. It's awful but I want to see more.

Is this the Dark Side?

Edit.

I changed my mind. Is it too late to go to the light side again?

http://www.starwars.com/news/so-what-the-heck-are-midi-chlorians

I know this won't put the Midi-chlorian issue to bed. It's a crummy article, it predates the Story Group, but it contains several quotes from George Lucas on the subject. Not attacking or defending the concept; just putting more information out there.

This is it. This is canon, this is perfect, this answers a great many questions that people have been asking.

You sir are a credit to the thread.

Lucas: Like Yoga. If you want to take the time to do it, you can do it; but the ones that really want to do it are the ones who are into that kind of thing. Also like karate.

Like, I don't find much use for being able to punch and kick good in my everyday life, but I'm sure I could fine a lot of uses for things like telekinesis and mind control.

Okay, maybe take a break.

I just got caught up and am watching the last one now,

but I was wondering, does anyone else think it odd

that they would send TIE bombers to recon?!?

Just to put in my two cents on the episode. I thought it was great and we finally get to learn about Sabine's past. As for the comments on the advice to Kanan and the final fight. As someone already mentioned, Kanan isn't quite as in touch with Sabine as Hera is, and Fenn is a Mandalorian and would have at least some idea of how she thinks (plus he seems to have a few years on Kanan). Also, as someone else mentioned, Kanan wasn't taught how to teach. Then we get to Sabine. Think about this, if you have training and skill, no matter how little, but for one reason or another don't want to use it, you're not going to even try. In Sabine's case...well I'll just say she had A LOT of pressure on that front. She didn't want the responsibility that came with what she was doing because of her past. So when she finally stats venting, Kanan lets her get it out. Along with Fenn and Ezra saying they'd follow her probably help as well.

Also...MANDALORIANS CAN BE JEDI!

Okay, take a break.

I just got caught up and am watching the last one now,

but I was wondering, does anyone else think it odd that they sent bombers to recon?!?

So yeah, look at the Jedi. They create many things that increase order in the lives of those that use them - temples, charities, libraries; and they very seldom "use" the force in flashy and excessive ways. They listen to it, use it passively to enhance physical skills, and on occasion use simple telekinesis and the like for things their bodies cannot do. They conserve the force and are content for doing so.

The Sith steal existing knowledge, take things from the Jedi at great cost, grind through apprentices to create the strongest one, and use the force for everything - lighting, life draining, alchemy, flight, excessive telekinesis. They waste the force looking for more power in the force and thus are never satisfied.

At least, that's what I think.

I like that a lot. The Dark Side is like a drug, it gives you a powerful rush but leaves always in pursuit of a bigger to hit, always craving more and always striving for what is just out of reach.

I was combing through old articles on SW dot com and found this: http://www.starwars.com/news/meet-the-creatures-of-dagobah

The Krykna (Chopper Base spiders) were based on McQuarrie concept art. I like Rebels a little more every time I find one of these "tribute to the artist" nuggets.

http://www.starwars.com/news/so-what-the-heck-are-midi-chlorians

I know this won't put the Midi-chlorian issue to bed. It's a crummy article, it predates the Story Group, but it contains several quotes from George Lucas on the subject. Not attacking or defending the concept; just putting more information out there.

Given the explanation in that link, if every living cell has to have at least one midichlorian, if midichlorians is what let people interact with the Force, and if at the same time, anyone can just train to get or improve that ability to interact with the Force, the conclusion is clear to me:

You can actually train to perceive the Force, and by training, it makes your midichlorians multiply inside your cells, just in the same way that people that train cardio end having more red cells in their blood than people that don't, or people that train their intellect end having more neural connections than people that don't.

So in the end it's a bit like what DarthEnderX or McFoy said a few posts above. Midichlorians are attracted to Force students like mynocks to power cables. Although instead of "attracted", they just thrive or develop from the initial amount. They don't come from outside.

The comment about Yoda or Anakin having an exceptional midichlorian count just says that. You can infer these individuals already have a connection with the Force so strong that it can be reflected in their blood analysis, just because genetical accident in the case of Anakin, or training in the case of Yoda (or perhaps also genetical).

Ultimately, the whole concept comes to underline that Force training (or predisposition) leaves a biological imprint on the individual. But it doesn't remove the mysticism of the training.

You cannot clone or inject midichlorians to artificially make someone more Force sensitive, because it still needs the training. The knowledge of how to tap into their ability to use the Force. And without the training, it's safe to assume that injected midichlorians would soon after reduce to normal levels for the individual, just in the same way that injecting red cells in the body of an person doesn't make them an athlete and soon after they will go back to normality.

Anakin having an unusual count for an untrained individual is an exceptionality, caused by whatever biological explanation. But for whatever reason, that count doesn't seem to reduce to normal levels even without training. So it means that for that individual, a bit of training will lead to unlocking a very quick increase on their ability to use the Force, because the midichlorians are already there. It won't require years and years of training.

It goes well with the story, because with training comes discipline and humility, something that Anakin will not have opportunity to get because of his fast progress. Leading what it led to. Perhaps this was what Yoda was fearing. That unleashing so much power with too little discipline would have catastrophic consequences.