VandorDM, have I ever said how much I appreciate your approach to reality, it's refreshing.

All of this discussion reminds me of more Vader incompetence, very similar to what happens in Rebels. His competence in Rebels is in question because he didn't cut down Kanan and Ezra quickly and instead let them go on purpose to lead him back to the Rebel fleet. That plan later went awry when the ghost escaped (never mind he actually accomplished his goal and destroyed a squadron and the rebel cap ship)

This plan sounds so familiar somehow. Was there a time that he let the heroes escape to lead him back to a rebel base? I feel like there was a Grand Moff who thought this was awfully risky for some reason. Didn't it cost the empire an entire super weapon?

Um, letting the failed padawan and his untrained force sensitive underling escape led Vader to the Rebel fleet which allowed its destruction as well as led Vader to more Jedi survivors, mainly his old padawan. The only reasons the Ghost escaped was due to the bungling of the rank and file Imprials, not Vader, as well as the skill of the crew of the Ghost. Vader is badass, but not perfect. And certainly far from incompetent.

The destruction of the DS also falls to Tarkin who never sent fighters. Vader had to send a squadron out under his own command. Vader's plan also would have worked even if Han had come back, IF Luke did not have the force. Fortunately for the heroes and the story the Force was with him, otherwise he would have been another smeer on there side of that trench along side his buddy Biggs.

I don't think you get my point. I don't believe he's incompetent, but saying "Rebels" ruined Vader (not you, others) doesn't fly for exactly the reasons you and I listed. I think you just lay them out in a more straightforward, less sarcastic manor.

I just really enjoy sarcasm, even if it doesn't translate well.

Oh, I'm soooo sorry. Let me apologize right away. [sARCASM]

See that's how it's done

I'm surprised no one mentioned Vader's run in with the Energizer Bunny as when he was 'ruined'.

If three movies dedicated to assassinating the character of the Dark Lord of the Sith himself didn't ruin it for me, a couple of episodes where Freaking James Earl Jones voices him in the most badass display of awesomes I've seen in a long time surely couldn't ruin him. That big NOOOOOOO! came awfully close.

Hopefully rebels comes back soon and we have some new episodes to talk about and tutus crap can go take a rest.

I'm a little irritated that they gave us Siege of Lothal and then disappeared for months again. I want moooooore

Vader wasn't incompetent in any way. Stop looking for reasons to complain and Get out of my thread.

Vader was incompetent, he let dangerous enemies live, enemies he could have killed many times during their lightsabre duel. I am not saying this about you BUT I don't take orders from evil people, psychopaths, killers, and sadist. That being said I will make a wager with you.

You give me a good explanation why Vader flew into a firing zone where he could be effected by his own Star Destroyers that he ordered to block the Ghost, an explanation that makes him NOT look incompetent and I will leave your topic.

Same with the lightsabre duel, I want an explanation why Vader would fight the main characters the way he did instead of flat out killing them.

Problem is you won't be able to find an explanation that makes him look competent and respects the established abilities he has with the force in the scenario above. No pilot, unless they were insane or they are in a bad situation, would ever fly into an area where enemy fighters are IF their own ships, as in capital ships, are going to fire off weapons, or capturing equipment in this case, at the enemy if they themselves can be taken out by said weapons or equipment.

You also wont be able to find a good explanation "in-univvers" why he fought with the main characters the way he did, keeping two force users alive that are dangerous too the Empire. Having the rest of the crew escape is fine, he didn't need to keep the boy and Jedi Knight alive. And now look whats happened, they are alive, not in Imperial custody, and they can now prepare to deal with Vader if he comes back.

This video has serious screwed over Vader in any vs Fight on websites were this is done often.

The falcon, never once, fired a single missile in the movies. Never mind that a tie fighter exploded and a moment later the other tried to escape and did it poorly. When, in that time, do you propose he had time to discover exactly what type of ship fired upon it, assessed it's weapon capabilities and then decided that escaping in the only actual direction it could go was not a viable option, but instead decided to crash into his squad leader instead?

You can love all of the EU stuff you want, but Lucas didn't imagine most of that. He wanted a WW2 dogfight in space and Ralph McQuarrie drew him awesome ships to replace those WW2 fighters. The reason you have cheesy digital targeting indicators with xwings bouncing around in them before getting lock was because that how WW2 did targeting through the sights. Especially in movies. Not because of some ECM system Lucas thought of. If you want actual space combat look at something like B5 or the new BSG. It's actually imagined as SciFi space combat And how it might actually work (they have issues as well, but much fewer), not fantasy with a SciFi veneer. What has happened since The release of those movies and explosion of fandom is a ton of very smart, creative people filled in the massive gaps in the Star Wars universe with plausible details.

The turbolasers killed one fat pilot. One. Do not quote EU at me either, Lucas showed plenty of other rebels murdered by ties, but only Porkins (seriously Lucas, you named the fat one Porkins?!) died to turbolasers.

Vader was incompetent in Empire. During the fight with Luke he did the classic look away during the trap thing with the carbonite that let Luke escape. Then after he cuts off his hand he just lets him fall to his death presumably. He's a force user who was just picking up and throwing much heavier objects all over the place, but he couldn't grab Luke? Seriously? How dumb. Then there is everything Lucas did to Anakin in the prequels personally. The new Disney LFL has done more to repair that image in the last year than anything Lucas has done in the last 2 decades.

Again, I love these movies, LOVE them, but I accept their flaws because I understand what he was going for and that was a fantasy serial with space wizards.

The Falcon fired concussion missiles in Return of the Jedi. As for the Pilot, he knew what he was up against when he checked his scope, they show him in the movie look to see what it was behind him, don't you remember this? I didn't say he decided to slam into Vader, it was more of a reactionary flinch having an enemy on top of you and behind you.

You can say that all you like but they do show most the stuff I mentioned in the movie itself. Lucas and now LFL approves all the techbooks we get and they say and or show the things I mentioned, so if you are trying to say now their is no ECM or ECCM in star wars then you are mistaken.

I can use all the references I like, you are not going to dictate to me what I can and can not use. Thank you very much.

As for Vaders "incompetence" in ESB, the examples you use don't compare to what was shown in the Rebels tv nor are some of the examples you mentioned things showing him being incompetent. For starters he looked away for just a second to active the carbonite chamber, thats nothing compared to flying into a firing zone where your own cap ships can hit you.

Can you give a reason why Vader would even bother catching Luke with the force as he fell when beforehand he just gave Luke an ultimatum which was basically "Join me or die?" Lucas did fine with Anakin in NT, he was becoming unstable because Sidious orchestrated all these events in which would lead Anakin to the darkside.

On second thought, why did they even run the trench? It doesn't make sense. They could enter much further along and pull the same shot. We know it's open the whole way and that they're too fast for turbolasers. It's a pretty dumb scenario.

That's always bugged me too. Why did they have to maneuver down the trench at all? Why not approach the exhaust port from above so that your proton torpedo doesn't have to make a 90 degree turn down the chute? The rational I have come up with is that the was so difficult, required such complex guidance instructions for the proton torpedo, that the targeting computers required significant time and reference points in order to program the torpedo's intended flight path. When the pilots were looking through their viewfinders, it wasn't just a countdown until they were supposed to pull the trigger, the computer was analyzing the fighter's flight path and comparing it to the technical data from the DS plans to get a hyper accurate fix on the fighters position and course so that it could program the torpedo to correctly fly down the exhaust port and not hit anything on the way down. If they had entered the trench close to the port, the computer would not have been able to collect enough data to program the torpedo's guidance system accurately enough.

That's my in universe rationale for why the whole sequence looks like a WW2 bombing run.

The exaust port opening isn't pointing into space, that why they didn't just come at it from above, and all the turbo Lasers and anti-fighter laser batteries.

The Falcon did fire missiles actually, at The Death Star's reactor.

Always thought those were just blaster fire. /shrug

Doesn't really matter, doesn't effect my point other than it brings up Hans incompetence for not using them on Ties before that point.

If Han had used missiles on the TIEs in the trench in ANH they would have been alerted to his presence that much faster as they would have been alerted to the target lock. Not to mention, Han is playing to the Falcon's strengths, which is certainly not tailing a much smaller and more maneuverable adversary.

Doesn't explain why he doesn't use them during the Death Star escape, the Hoth escape, the battle of Endor prior to the reactor you know, any time he ran into Ties

Just like with LASERs and Blasters and whatever weapons they are going to use in space, missiles need to lock onto enemy craft. As for Hoth Han didn't bother to fire anything when he escaped so I don't see what your big deal is with that tidbit, and at Endor I imagine Lando was holding onto those missiles just in case he was going to use them on the Death Star reactor, the Falcon only carries 5-6 missiles.

I'd love to see sources for these ECMS everyone keeps talking about, Falcon DID use concussion missiles against the reactor core of the 2nd death star.

The Ghosts escape...

Not afraid to admit I got almost nothin' there.

The will of the force and him learning Ahsoka is still alive clouded his mind perhaps. Maybe he wanted to let it play out without looking like he let it play out, Maybe he was flying casual.

So, what, you think a smuggler just carries a munitions payload everywhere he goes in a galaxy where those could be immediately detected by passing Imperial patrols, drawing further attention to himself..?

He tends to run from IMPs when he is around Imperial patrols or dumps his cargo.

Okay, different question. We're missiles ever used ship to ship in the original trilogy? I think Lucas envisioned them more like bombs or, well, torpedoes, meant for large, slow targets.

Possibly, we see a rogue torpedo go flying by some ships. That being said the story board artists drew some dog-fighting scene showing A-Wings dog-fighting with missiles against TIEs.

Why is anyone calling Rebels Vader derpy? He crushed every opponent he faced, easily. Kannen and the kid took the inquisitor, they only barely got away from Vader and, and he let them go. Vader used a star fighter to crush a upgraded frigate. He killed how many AWings?

The only thing you could argue is hubris, when he said job well done after killing one ship. However, both the Emperor and Vader can list hubris as ongoing character flaws.

The reason Vader is Derp Vader now is because he let enemies live that he shouldn't have let live, Kannen and the Boy, OR he flys into zones he shouldn't be in because his own cap ships could take him out, and they did take him out. He should have herded the Ghost from a different angle than he did, or broke pursuit after a certain point but he didn't.

They show him as basically the T-800, taking his time to walk over to his targets and fight them, even with his superior abilities they escaped despite the fact he should have killed them. This last point is a mix of two issues actually. Their was no reason to let the Jedi live, and even if that was a good idea they shouldn't have shown him *** PLAYING WITH HIS ENEMIES!!! Now when any fight comes up the people that don't like SW will bring this fight up and declare whoever it is they picked beats Vader because Vader takes his time to play with his enemies in the way he did in this movie and will get himself killed.

LFL should have him "Vader" use his force fear allusion abilities he has in SWTFU2, they could have had him scare off the main cast with phantom Vaders, none able to tell which one is real, although the pain the inflict is real, so they are forced to leave.

Because the person calling Vader derpy is just trolling this thread because he hates the show to the very core of his being. Just ignore what the troll has to say and you'll be much better off.

Bad logic, I am not trolling nor do I just up and hate something for no reason. This episode we are talking about is a good reason for me to hate it.

Also, Vader may be deducing quite logically that if there is one jedi, and apprentice there - they might lead to other jeid/apprentices. One rebel cell might lead to another rebel cell. In all fairness, this has worked for him before.

Also, Vader may be deducing quite logically that if there is one jedi, and apprentice there - they might lead to other jeid/apprentices. One rebel cell might lead to another rebel cell. In all fairness, this has worked for him before.

And it worked, in this case as well, with his encounter with Ahsoka (who does know Vader's true identity after the events of The Siege of Lothal).

BKL: Derp Vader in Rebels destroyed a Rebel command ship and a squadron of fighters. He only allowed a freighter to escape, and probably killed some officers for that blunder. He lost no major imperial assets and drove the rebels that survived from their primary operating base

Vader in ANH cost the Empire a freaking Death Star by allowing the Falcon to escape with the Death Star plan, on purpose, against the better judgement of Tarkin. Then he failed to destroy a rookie x-wing pilot in time as well as having enough ties to fly air superiority over the trench to cover his own backside. You read tech manuals, how many Tie fighters were on that thing again? Honestly he was far more idiotic in ANH than Rebels by a country mile

I also love the idea that Lucas poured over the EU material in any meaningful way before he approved it, or read it at all. Tech manuals are meaningless hindsight in regards to the movies. It wasn't thought about, imagined or worried about when they made those movies. Not one person on that set thought about ECMs. They thought about making it look cool, like those WW2 movies.

Who cares if the exhaust port was in line with an angled attack from above? The torpedoes can make sharp turns on their own when they reach their target with no prompt from a pilot. And don't give me "the force", all rebels would have had to make that shot, so it's clear the torpedoes can make that turn.

It's very true. The only crime Rebels makes which the OT doesn't is that it makes Imperial officers/stormtroopers/pilots comically incompetent.

Star Wars, upon any close inspection does a LOT of silly things.

What? Are we watching the same show?

Let look at this claim, because this is a major gripe I have with this community. I put it to you that rebels makes the imperials look very good, if you look right.

First of all the nameless stormtroopers and imperial soldiers: well of course they're not going to upstage the named protagonists. Wouldn't be much of a show then would it? "Announcing Star Wars Rebels: A show where all the main characters get gunned down by storm troopers in the first episode" Do you realize how silly that sounds? The good guys have to actually win sometimes. Also the nameless rebels don't look too hot in the show either, being portrayed as either dupes getting fooled by a fairly transparent spy, starchy by the book military types or getting slaughtered with contemptuous ease by vader in space.

However lets look at the villains that matter, because its a completely different story.

The first antagonist that presents a credible threat we are introduced to is Agent Kallus, an ISB agent. At the start of the show Kallus sets a trap for the heroes that they fall right in to and are only saved by some quick thinking. he then pursues them to Kessel, corners them and almost captures them, forcing Kannan to reveal himself as a jedi, an enemy that Kallus is not trained or equipped to fight. However kallus is shown as a very competent fighter, absolutely wrecking Zeb, the protagonists best non-Jedi combatant when they first meet. To add insult to injury he defeats Zeb with his species' ancestral weapon. Kallus consistently comes very close to catching the heroes and usually gives a very good account of himself whenever he shows up. Remember if he wins the show is over, our rebel cell is captured hurt real bad and killed real bad.

The next serious threat we are introduced to is the inquisitor. The inquisitor also sets a trap for Kannan to walk into, which he does, taking the bait hook line and sinker. The inquisitor then completely dominates kannan in a lightsaber duel, and IIRC kannan is only saved by dues-ex-ezra (which is a theme for their encounters). This happens again where Ezra sets a giant monster on the inquisitor while they escape. Presumably the inquisitor kills the monster because we see the inquisitor alive and well after this fight. The inquisitor is only defeated when Kannan fights with the strength of a man who has nothing left. He then goes out with a badass "too proud to accept the hero's help" moment. (Paralleling another villain voiced by Jason Isaacs in another show, but that is neither here nor there)

Later in the show Grand Moff Tarkin arrives to deal with the insurgency. Immediately he makes his presence felt, executing incompetent officers and dressing down the ones too competent to kill. Tarkin, in a recurring theme of this show, sets a trap for the heroes that they fall right into. The rebels do manage to complete their objective but its a Pyrrhic victory as tarkin captures Kannan and the broadcast tower is destroyed. Throughout the final episodes of the show tarkin is consistently portrayed as in control of things, planning for eventualities. The rebels EMP his star destroyer, but he's already planned for that with a signal he's broadcasting, now that the signal has stopped the fleet sends reinforcements.

Finally the Siege of Lothal gives us Darth Vader. This guy is hyped by the show to crazy levels and he's portrayed as about as big a threat as a show ABOUT THE REBELS FOR KIDS can be. He defeats Kannan and Ezra with contemptuous ease, obviously toying with them. Why didn't he kill them? Two reasons, first he wanted them to lead him to the rebel fleet, second ITS A SHOW. They're not going to kill off their protagonists in the pilot of their new season, Jesus Christ. Later in the episode he takes on a fleet of CR 90s and A wings and wins, oh yeah, real incompetent.

Basically the show makes the named Imperial look very good at their jobs and they are built up to be big, credible threats.

BKL: so, your contention is that Vader's wingman saw his friend destroyed, had the presence of mind to look at the scope to determine what shot at his wingman, then panicked? That may be a bigger endightment of imperial ineptitude than my example. Why did Vader, a force user, not anticipate this by the way? Right again, incompetence.

Stormies in Rebels are most likely recruits from Lothal and other Outerrim worlds. The academy episode shows that the most talented recruits are weeded out and sent into other programs or, if they are force sensative, well, it's not pleasant. That leaves mediocre troops to patrol the backwaters of the Galaxy. It's not exactly best practices but they get a lot of manpower to project over a vast territory to maintain control and keep the populace cowed. Also the most dangerous potential dissidents are rounded up and indoctrinated while still young.

Does this help explain a few things?

It almost does.

ALMOST.

I mean, it's not as if this backwater base is home to a known cell of fugitives, an Inquisitorial effort and a manufacturing plant for a new form of experimental Imperial fighter.

I mean Area 51 is clearly guarded by merely the national guard.

It's not as if the Governer of the entire oversector personally went to check on it at all...

It almost does.

ALMOST.

I mean, it's not as if this backwater base is home to a known cell of fugitives, an Inquisitorial effort and a manufacturing plant for a new form of experimental Imperial fighter.

I mean Area 51 is clearly guarded by merely the national guard.

It's not as if the Governer of the entire oversector personally went to check on it at all...

What would actually satisfy you for the storm troopers being "competent"?

The death of a major character every time they get into a fight? The death of all the major characters in their first fire fight with these "elite troops"? Look I understand the frustration, I've felt it for other things, but in rebels the stormies are regulated to faceless mooks, which is fine because the named bad guys are very threatening.

a manufacturing plant for a new form of experimental Imperial fighter.

This. They already stole the plans for all of the Empires upcoming weapons development from this planet. That's the kind of thing that should be guarded by better than your troops that can barely pass exams.

It almost does.

ALMOST.

I mean, it's not as if this backwater base is home to a known cell of fugitives, an Inquisitorial effort and a manufacturing plant for a new form of experimental Imperial fighter.

I mean Area 51 is clearly guarded by merely the national guard.

It's not as if the Governer of the entire oversector personally went to check on it at all...

What would actually satisfy you for the storm troopers being "competent"?

The death of a major character every time they get into a fight? The death of all the major characters in their first fire fight with these "elite troops"? Look I understand the frustration, I've felt it for other things, but in rebels the stormies are regulated to faceless mooks, which is fine because the named bad guys are very threatening.

To satisfy me, all I want is them to have dignity. Not looking like total dumbasses. Maybe them winging a main character, maybe a TIE Fighter actively dodging a laser bolt here or there. Maybe some rebel mauve shirts biting it to a stormy or TIE. But really. Not looking like utter dolts would do it. It's not asking much.

I'll remind you, I like rebels, I get why things are as they are. But I will post against inaccurate data.

I'll say again. A Hero is defined by his villains.

The villains are the named characters. The arcs of the story center on them.

The storm troopers being competent does not make for a good story.

And it's funny to see steve blum voice idiots.

I dunno... first 2 movies the Stormtroopers routinely kicked ass.

For an example of a series where the mooks were a real threat and it was good for the story see Blakes 7 - Also Star Trek with the Jem Hadar and Borg.

To satisfy me, all I want is them to have dignity. Not looking like total dumbasses. Maybe them winging a main character, maybe a TIE Fighter actively dodging a laser bolt here or there. Maybe some rebel mauve shirts biting it to a stormy or TIE. But really. Not looking like utter dolts would do it. It's not asking much.

I'll remind you, I like rebels, I get why things are as they are. But I will post against inaccurate data.

I'll say again. A Hero is defined by his villains.

Rebels has very good villains, the named ones like kallus and the inquisitor, those guys kick butt.

I actually like it when my standard trooper is kind of dumb.

Those two troopers just talking about the Sabine's TIE being the new paint job amused me way more than if they'd just had the competent reaction to it.

Also, Battle Droids. I don't know why, but every time in Clone Wars they tell an enemy to stop doing that, instead of just shooting them, it amuses me.

I think I blame Venture Bros. for giving me a reverence for incompetent minions.

Having the stormtroopers provide some comic relief reminds us that there are humans under those helmets, humanizing an enemy with a uniform designed to deliberately dehumanize them.

I actually like it when my standard trooper is kind of dumb.

Those two troopers just talking about the Sabine's TIE being the new paint job amused me way more than if they'd just had the competent reaction to it.

Also, Battle Droids. I don't know why, but every time in Clone Wars they tell an enemy to stop doing that, instead of just shooting them, it amuses me.

I think I blame Venture Bros. for giving me a reverence for incompetent minions.

"That's not standard."

"I dunno', I kinda' like it."

That trooper saying he liked it was a very, very nice reminder that there are people under those helmets, with their own thoughts and feelings about things.

I actually like it when my standard trooper is kind of dumb.

Those two troopers just talking about the Sabine's TIE being the new paint job amused me way more than if they'd just had the competent reaction to it.

Also, Battle Droids. I don't know why, but every time in Clone Wars they tell an enemy to stop doing that, instead of just shooting them, it amuses me.

I think I blame Venture Bros. for giving me a reverence for incompetent minions.

I find it weird how battle droids became comic relif in other media. They never do anything really dumb in TPM or AOTC. There is a small argument for those two B2s that R2-D2 rekt on the Invisible Hand but that is about it.

Why is anyone calling Rebels Vader derpy? He crushed every opponent he faced, easily. Kannen and the kid took the inquisitor, they only barely got away from Vader and, and he let them go. Vader used a star fighter to crush a upgraded frigate. He killed how many AWings?

The only thing you could argue is hubris, when he said job well done after killing one ship. However, both the Emperor and Vader can list hubris as ongoing character flaws.

The reason Vader is Derp Vader now is because he let enemies live that he shouldn't have let live, Kannen and the Boy, OR he flys into zones he shouldn't be in because his own cap ships could take him out, and they did take him out. He should have herded the Ghost from a different angle than he did, or broke pursuit after a certain point but he didn't.

They show him as basically the T-800, taking his time to walk over to his targets and fight them, even with his superior abilities they escaped despite the fact he should have killed them. This last point is a mix of two issues actually. Their was no reason to let the Jedi live, and even if that was a good idea they shouldn't have shown him *** PLAYING WITH HIS ENEMIES!!! Now when any fight comes up the people that don't like SW will bring this fight up and declare whoever it is they picked beats Vader because Vader takes his time to play with his enemies in the way he did in this movie and will get himself killed.

LFL should have him "Vader" use his force fear allusion abilities he has in SWTFU2, they could have had him scare off the main cast with phantom Vaders, none able to tell which one is real, although the pain the inflict is real, so they are forced to leave.

You see it in little orphan Annie and his pod racer, you see it in Jedi Annie angry at the masters holding him back or when he vows to conquer death. Vader's hubris may be one of the best, most consistent, character flaws in fiction.

However you want him to join Rainbow Dash in the list of characters who can beat up Starscream. Your desire is so strong that you complain about good story telling because you think it makes his stats weaker in an arena which means little to nothing outside some very geek fans. Pure Hubris, you have it and you complain that Darth shares your flaw.

/edit battery died switch devices.

So there is every evidence that Vader would not see one band of people as a credible threat. There is no reason to believe he would see Ezra or Kannen as threats. Kannen was a fled Padawan not a full Jedi knight and certainly not a master and both Vader and the emperor are sith Lords.

There is evidence that he wanted the rebels scared. Killing Ezra and Kannen could have been overkill. If the remaining rebels became despondent with grief they may have died right there or not left the planet. However with their heroes terrified and running they are all more afraid and likely to make mistakes like not checking for transmitters.

My advice to you is enjoy the stories and don't worry about who wins in a Vader, Gandolph, Prodessor X, Jesus tag team.

lol at using TFU II as a way to prop up Vader. You did see the lightside ending, right? But, who cares, since the story is not being finished, thus decononized by neglect. Thank god.

Now, please don't quote him. The white bars are much more pleasant than his incoherent rants.

Vader is a tank. He isn't about the quick kill. As we have seen from many, many of his fights.