One of my biggest issues with the pre-prequel EU is that Jedi kept popping up all over the **** place. Now, one or two in hermitage sure. But there was a good number.

Personally I don't want Kanan or Ezra to survive into the ANH/ESB era, let the series end on a downer - or leading into a new hope.

Leia says to Kenobi "you are our only hope" - not "you could be a huge help. We have a former Padawan you would know of and a couple of Jedi she found running around a couple of years ago" - Leia's 'father' is Bail Organa, who seems to be involved, if not leading / bankrolling the Rebels - he failed to mention he knew of at least three other Jedi?

Umm....Leia did say that as her ship was being bordered by Imperial Troops right over the planet where Kenobi lived. You have to put that into perspective. Leia had the secret plans that needed to get to the Rebels. Her long shot was to send them via some droids to a hidden Jedi somewhere on the planet. Even if she knew of other hidden Jedi and/or other Rebels, Kenobi was still the "only hope" to save the plans for the Death Star.

That said, Vader is going to kill Ahsoka. Probably not this season, but I don't see how their story can end any other way.

Agreed - although I hope it's Palp that kills her while Vader stands by and does nothing.

it's the only way to really setup Vader killing Palp in RotJ to be that much more powerful.

You know if it was long and extremely painful I'd actually watch that because I hate that character and would love to see her suffer.

She and jar jar made clone wars unwatchable.

Kenobi was also a very good military leader. Ahsoka is tricky only because they are setting her to be rather high up in the fledgling Rebellion. But, that is about the only issue she presents, which I suspect Vader will rectify eventually.

I disagree about Palpatine killing Ahsoka. Having Vader kill her sets up Luke's importance in redemption. We have seen the bonds Anakin had with Obi-wan and Ahsoka. But it is Luke, his son that causes him to turn from the Darkside.

I don't disagree with Luke being the ultimate motivator - however, I think we need a better scene of Vader's passivity in the face of Palpatine being evil. RotS tried to do that w/ Windu's death, but not well enough. The pivotal moment in Jedi is when Vader is looking back and forth from Luke to Palp and finally making a decision to end it. In my mind, I've always wanted a mirror to that scene to occur for Vader where he does nothing when Palp is killing somebody he loves. Thus, in Jedi, when it is his son, it's a 'no - not again, not this time' kind of moment. Palp killing Tano is a chance to do that.

One of my biggest issues with the pre-prequel EU is that Jedi kept popping up all over the **** place. Now, one or two in hermitage sure. But there was a good number.

Personally I don't want Kanan or Ezra to survive into the ANH/ESB era, let the series end on a downer - or leading into a new hope.

They either have to die or at least Vader and the Emperor thinks they have died.

It won't make sense that they weren't involved with the Rebellion in the OT. Ben Kenobi would have been like "Luke, there are two other Jedi Knights you need to hook up with."

Is it really an issue with them remaining an independant cell instead of joining up with central military? Hell, Kanan even said he had issues with that in the Season 2 trailer.

Ben Kenobi would have been like "Luke, there are two other Jedi Knights you need to hook up with."

That assumes he knows about them at all, and believes they're still alive at that time., which isn't something that can be assumed.

Again, Rebels shouldn't have it's hands tied because of a plot hole in ESB.

Ben Kenobi would have been like "Luke, there are two other Jedi Knights you need to hook up with."

That assumes he knows about them at all, and believes they're still alive at that time., which isn't something that can be assumed.

Again, Rebels shouldn't have it's hands tied because of a plot hole in ESB.

Why make the plot holes? When he's all force ghost, you don't think that he wouldn't become aware of Kanan or Ezra?

Why make the plot holes?

George made them not me... The very idea that Yoda and Obi Wan were the only jedi to survive order 66 is simply not believable. If Obi Wan can survive an hour or so away from the Skywalker family, then other Jedi could hide out on other planets just as easily.

When he's all force ghost, you don't think that he wouldn't become aware of Kanan or Ezra?

Does being a force ghost make you omni-knowledgeable? Qui Gon believed in the Living Force, and if that's how it works perhaps the Force kept them hidden for some reason.

Is it really an issue with them remaining an independant cell instead of joining up with central military? Hell, Kanan even said he had issues with that in the Season 2 trailer.

Who even says there is a central military? I thought that Rebels takes place at the infancy of the rebellion? I mean, there are probably some senators and a few other powerful people that don't like what's happening, but that's a far cry from actual people doing something against them. Even in "A New Hope" book, Hera says it's too early to start her cell. It's a few years later, but they are just a cell. One group that is trying to organize some opposition. What are they doing most of the time? Stealing food to feed people. It's not like they are doing more than speaking out against the Empire. I don't think there is a central military to join up with at this point.

"Does being a force ghost make you omni-knowledgeable? Qui Gon believed in the Living Force, and if that's how it works perhaps the Force kept them hidden for some reason."

Qui gon was also a cheat a liar and a terrible judge of character you sure you want to hitch your trailer to that truck?

Is it really an issue with them remaining an independant cell instead of joining up with central military? Hell, Kanan even said he had issues with that in the Season 2 trailer.

Who even says there is a central military? I thought that Rebels takes place at the infancy of the rebellion? I mean, there are probably some senators and a few other powerful people that don't like what's happening, but that's a far cry from actual people doing something against them. Even in "A New Hope" book, Hera says it's too early to start her cell. It's a few years later, but they are just a cell. One group that is trying to organize some opposition. What are they doing most of the time? Stealing food to feed people. It's not like they are doing more than speaking out against the Empire. I don't think there is a central military to join up with at this point.

In A New Dawn she keeps comparing her current objectives to intel gathering missions and recruiting trips. No mention of whether someone (Fulcrum) originally sent her or if it was her own conviction. Has she been recruiting for other cells or just looking to fill her own ship?

In Rebels she knows she's taking direction from a higher authority on rebellious deeds, but maybe doesn't know the full scope of their work. It's her crew that is completely blind to the bigger picture.

Is it really an issue with them remaining an independant cell instead of joining up with central military? Hell, Kanan even said he had issues with that in the Season 2 trailer.

I've mentioned the other times it has come up but, Ahsoka needs to be killed just to further the story and Vader's arc. Kanan probably COULD be allowed to survive but, given the parallels between Ben and Luke and him and Ezra I am expecting kanan to sacrifice himself to save Ezra late in the series. Ezra can survive because kanan is never going to be able to train him well enough to qualify as a Jedi. I am actually hoping that there is a tie in novel after the show that details how an older Ezra becomes one of Luke's first apprentices after RotJ.

As for not changing the characters to fit the constraints of empire, that is flawed thinking. The characters were CREATED to fit I to the framework established by the OT. The final fate of the crew, and indeed probably the storyline fore the final episode arc, were all thought out before filming even began.

Qui gon was also a cheat a liar and a terrible judge of character

So was Obi Wan... He may not of cheated at anything we saw, but he was a liar and had no issues with taking over for Qui Gon after he was gone.

The final fate of the crew, and indeed probably the storyline fore the final episode arc, were all thought out before filming even began.

I'm sure it has, at least with a broad brush. But that doesn't mean that they can't work around what was said in ESB and RotJ to tell the story they want.

What about Ezra turning to the dark side and killing sabine, hera and kanan? And Jar Jar?

could happen.

Is it really an issue with them remaining an independant cell instead of joining up with central military? Hell, Kanan even said he had issues with that in the Season 2 trailer.

Who even says there is a central military? I thought that Rebels takes place at the infancy of the rebellion? I mean, there are probably some senators and a few other powerful people that don't like what's happening, but that's a far cry from actual people doing something against them. Even in "A New Hope" book, Hera says it's too early to start her cell. It's a few years later, but they are just a cell. One group that is trying to organize some opposition. What are they doing most of the time? Stealing food to feed people. It's not like they are doing more than speaking out against the Empire. I don't think there is a central military to join up with at this point.

In A New Dawn she keeps comparing her current objectives to intel gathering missions and recruiting trips. No mention of whether someone (Fulcrum) originally sent her or if it was her own conviction. Has she been recruiting for other cells or just looking to fill her own ship?

In Rebels she knows she's taking direction from a higher authority on rebellious deeds, but maybe doesn't know the full scope of their work. It's her crew that is completely blind to the bigger picture.

I'm trying to recall specifics, but I got the impression that Hera was gathering intel and wanted form her own cell.

In Rebels, she is part of a cell. A cell is a group that doesn't know the rest of the group, so if they are compromised, they can only rat out the rest of the cell. With that in mind, it doesn't necessarily mean that there is much organization for the rest of the Rebels. I'm getting the impression that it's just the beginning of the Rebellion.

The big problem when people talk about the existence of the Jedi is relying on the following quotes as exclusive statements instead of contextual ones;

Leia: "Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope."

Obi-Wan: "That boy is our last hope." Yoda: "No, there is another."

Obi-Wan: "Now, the Jedi are all but extinct."

Grand Moff Tarkin: "The Jedi are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe.

You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion."

When we read these statements, it seems to clearly identify Luke as the only Force-User, but it isn't necessarily the case.

Leia's whole message changes this assumption though: "General Kenobi, years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars. Now he begs you to help him in his struggle against the Empire . I regret that I am unable to present my father's request to you in person, but my ship has fallen under attack and I'm afraid my mission to bring you to Alderaan has failed . I have placed information vital to the survival of the Rebellion into the memory systems of this R2 unit. My father will know how to retrieve it. You must see this droid safely delivered to him on Alderaan. This is our most desperate hour. Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope."

The bolded statements clearly show that her father had sent her specifically to Tatooine for Obi-Wan, and it was only because of the fact that the plans were (per the assumption he was seeing the message) with Obi-wan that the care in delivering the plans to her father was solely in his hands. The statement "you're my only hope" we now see is a reference not to overthrowing the Empire or in relation to the Force, but merely in relation to getting the Death Star plans to her father. Moreover, there is no inference that she is even aware that he is a Jedi, as she refers to him as General. While we can assume that she would know of the great General Kenobi from history lessons and her father, there is no guarantee of this.

Obi-Wan and Yoda speak of Luke being their only hope. but what they hope of him needs to be taken in the context of their words to him right before he left. Yoda says specifically, "Stopped they must be. On this depends. Only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor . If you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path, as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil."

The bolded part when taken in context with their statements show that they are specifically considering the confrontation with Vader, and the likelihood of success against him. Having a Skywalker trained properly greatly increases their chances of success, after all, Anakin himself was more than a match for the greatest Jedi of the age. The statement never implies there is no one else out there, merely no one that in their estimation fits the bill of 1) A fully trained Jedi, and 2) having the Force as his Ally.

If we think of this in relation to Ezra and Kanaan - niether are fully trained Jedi. If we think of it in relation to Asokha (from their perspective) she may have completed her training, but when she left the Order their opinion would mean that the force would not have been her Ally any longer (as she turned her back on it - remember that Jedi are very black and white in their opinion of leaving the order).

The last two statements I listed, made by Tarkin and Kenobi, show the overall opinion of the populace. Those that have survived, aren't able to propagate the Order - its dead. Kanaan references that as well, he's doing the best he can, but he never completed his trials, so the maximum he could ever teach to Ezra is only as far as he learned himself. Only Vader (from Tarkin's perspective) could continue with the tradition if he desired.

It is highly likely that a Jedi or padawan escaped Order 66, but the stronger and more trained they were, the more likely it was they could be hunted down. Kenobi specifically went into hiding, but was pulled out by necessity, just like Yoda was then pulled out by necessity. Other Jedi who were equally successful in hiding would have no "push" to get out hiding, and so were non-factors in the conflict until it became safe for them again. Those Jedi interested in insurgency were the first eliminate by Vader during the consolidation of power in the early days of the Empire, and so by the time of the Rebels series (and the OT later) the only remaining ones were Jedi in hiding and those too weak to fight back, like Kanaan.

The big problem when people talk about the existence of the Jedi is relying on the following quotes as exclusive statements instead of contextual ones;

Leia: "Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope."

Obi-Wan: "That boy is our last hope." Yoda: "No, there is another."

Obi-Wan: "Now, the Jedi are all but extinct."

Grand Moff Tarkin: "The Jedi are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe.

You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion."

When we read these statements, it seems to clearly identify Luke as the only Force-User, but it isn't necessarily the case.

Leia's whole message changes this assumption though: "General Kenobi, years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars. Now he begs you to help him in his struggle against the Empire . I regret that I am unable to present my father's request to you in person, but my ship has fallen under attack and I'm afraid my mission to bring you to Alderaan has failed . I have placed information vital to the survival of the Rebellion into the memory systems of this R2 unit. My father will know how to retrieve it. You must see this droid safely delivered to him on Alderaan. This is our most desperate hour. Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope."

The bolded statements clearly show that her father had sent her specifically to Tatooine for Obi-Wan, and it was only because of the fact that the plans were (per the assumption he was seeing the message) with Obi-wan that the care in delivering the plans to her father was solely in his hands. The statement "you're my only hope" we now see is a reference not to overthrowing the Empire or in relation to the Force, but merely in relation to getting the Death Star plans to her father. Moreover, there is no inference that she is even aware that he is a Jedi, as she refers to him as General. While we can assume that she would know of the great General Kenobi from history lessons and her father, there is no guarantee of this.

Obi-Wan and Yoda speak of Luke being their only hope. but what they hope of him needs to be taken in the context of their words to him right before he left. Yoda says specifically, "Stopped they must be. On this depends. Only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor . If you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path, as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil."

The bolded part when taken in context with their statements show that they are specifically considering the confrontation with Vader, and the likelihood of success against him. Having a Skywalker trained properly greatly increases their chances of success, after all, Anakin himself was more than a match for the greatest Jedi of the age. The statement never implies there is no one else out there, merely no one that in their estimation fits the bill of 1) A fully trained Jedi, and 2) having the Force as his Ally.

If we think of this in relation to Ezra and Kanaan - niether are fully trained Jedi. If we think of it in relation to Asokha (from their perspective) she may have completed her training, but when she left the Order their opinion would mean that the force would not have been her Ally any longer (as she turned her back on it - remember that Jedi are very black and white in their opinion of leaving the order).

The last two statements I listed, made by Tarkin and Kenobi, show the overall opinion of the populace. Those that have survived, aren't able to propagate the Order - its dead. Kanaan references that as well, he's doing the best he can, but he never completed his trials, so the maximum he could ever teach to Ezra is only as far as he learned himself. Only Vader (from Tarkin's perspective) could continue with the tradition if he desired.

It is highly likely that a Jedi or padawan escaped Order 66, but the stronger and more trained they were, the more likely it was they could be hunted down. Kenobi specifically went into hiding, but was pulled out by necessity, just like Yoda was then pulled out by necessity. Other Jedi who were equally successful in hiding would have no "push" to get out hiding, and so were non-factors in the conflict until it became safe for them again. Those Jedi interested in insurgency were the first eliminate by Vader during the consolidation of power in the early days of the Empire, and so by the time of the Rebels series (and the OT later) the only remaining ones were Jedi in hiding and those too weak to fight back, like Kanaan.

Said, with the awesome magnitude of calm deliberation.

Is it really an issue with them remaining an independant cell instead of joining up with central military? Hell, Kanan even said he had issues with that in the Season 2 trailer.

Who even says there is a central military? I thought that Rebels takes place at the infancy of the rebellion? I mean, there are probably some senators and a few other powerful people that don't like what's happening, but that's a far cry from actual people doing something against them. Even in "A New Hope" book, Hera says it's too early to start her cell. It's a few years later, but they are just a cell. One group that is trying to organize some opposition. What are they doing most of the time? Stealing food to feed people. It's not like they are doing more than speaking out against the Empire. I don't think there is a central military to join up with at this point.

In A New Dawn she keeps comparing her current objectives to intel gathering missions and recruiting trips. No mention of whether someone (Fulcrum) originally sent her or if it was her own conviction. Has she been recruiting for other cells or just looking to fill her own ship?

In Rebels she knows she's taking direction from a higher authority on rebellious deeds, but maybe doesn't know the full scope of their work. It's her crew that is completely blind to the bigger picture.

I'm trying to recall specifics, but I got the impression that Hera was gathering intel and wanted form her own cell.

In Rebels, she is part of a cell. A cell is a group that doesn't know the rest of the group, so if they are compromised, they can only rat out the rest of the cell. With that in mind, it doesn't necessarily mean that there is much organization for the rest of the Rebels. I'm getting the impression that it's just the beginning of the Rebellion.

My impression from A New Dawn is that she is on a mission to recruit if possible but primarily to investigate the MacGuffin baddie of the week and that both of those objectives came from an authority higher than herself. But - I read it after watching Rebels so that could be a biased perception.

My impression from A New Dawn is that she is on a mission to recruit if possible but primarily to investigate the MacGuffin baddie of the week and that both of those objectives came from an authority higher than herself. But - I read it after watching Rebels so that could be a biased perception.

I read it before the series and I recall Hera kept saying, "It's too soon" when looking to start a cell. Her main mission was to check on the cyborg and figure out what's going on.

My impression from A New Dawn is that she is on a mission to recruit if possible but primarily to investigate the MacGuffin baddie of the week and that both of those objectives came from an authority higher than herself. But - I read it after watching Rebels so that could be a biased perception.

I read it before the series and I recall Hera kept saying, "It's too soon" when looking to start a cell. Her main mission was to check on the cyborg and figure out what's going on.

Her main mission was the security system intel. Vidian was bonus spy times.

My impression from A New Dawn is that she is on a mission to recruit if possible but primarily to investigate the MacGuffin baddie of the week and that both of those objectives came from an authority higher than herself. But - I read it after watching Rebels so that could be a biased perception.

I read it before the series and I recall Hera kept saying, "It's too soon" when looking to start a cell. Her main mission was to check on the cyborg and figure out what's going on.

Her main mission was the security system intel. Vidian was bonus spy times.

I disagree based on her introduction on page 22-23 ish but it is kind of ambiguous and it doesn't really matter lol

Ben Kenobi would have been like "Luke, there are two other Jedi Knights you need to hook up with."

That assumes he knows about them at all, and believes they're still alive at that time., which isn't something that can be assumed.

Again, Rebels shouldn't have it's hands tied because of a plot hole in ESB.

Why make the plot holes? When he's all force ghost, you don't think that he wouldn't become aware of Kanan or Ezra?

You are maybe forgetting that Yoda wasn't only aware of Kanan and Ezra, he specifically communicated with them through the force during "Path of the Jedi".

I'd say it's fairly certain Yoda knew of them - although it doesn't seem like the contact would be something he'd be able to do outside of those special circumstances, and he obviously wasn't in general contact with the galaxy, so who knows what he might have known/thought about their fate during ESB.

In any case, from what script segments and spoilers have leaked about Episode VII - I think it's going to settle this argument about 'who all survived the Empire's reign' pretty clearly.

My thoughts on this are simple:

The Jedi are capable of a certain level of precognition, even when the Force is clouded by the Dark Side.

While Obi-Wan and Yoda might be disillusioned with the 'Chosen One' prophecy, they may have come across some scraps of the prophecy with more details - details that might specify that a child of the Chosen One (probably written in such a manner as to make it appear that the Chosen One is the child of a False Chosen One), as a fully-trained Jedi Knight, with the Force as their ally may be the key to completing the prophecy in its fullness. Scraps of the prophecy that Palpatine may not be aware of or may be too arrogant to believe in (or he might think that they're a big lie invented by the surviving Jedi as part of a psyop against him and he won't be so easily fooled).

Considering that the familial ties between Anakin and Luke are what helped push Vader away from the Dark Side, a prophecy that only one of his kids can push him back to the Light Side. They must also be strong enough in the Force to resist the Dark Side and not succumb to the same failings as their father. Therefore, it does not matter how many Jedi Knights are running around the galaxy, none of them can defeat the Emperor or Vader and return balance to the Force. Only a Skywalker can. And Anakin's greatest weakness was always his family: His wife, his mother, and then his children. Palpatine used his mother and his wife to lure him to the Dark Side. It only follows that Obi-Wan and Yoda use his children to bring him back.

Remember, the Jedi do not deal in random coïncidence. Everything, to them, happens for a reason. You could build your lightsaber with any components you want to, you can even synthesize the crystal, but they make you undergo a very spiritual quest to acquire your lightsaber crystal - granted, the crystal could be any crystal, it might have been left there years ago by somebody and you could just as easily grab that one as any other. But there are no coïncidences, no matter how random things may seem. And your lightsaber crystal is yours and yours alone. Your lightsaber is yours and yours alone. You could use any lightsaber, but the Jedi are very specific about this sort of thing. They are equally so with every other major decision they make. Even the decision to train Anakin as a Jedi.

Therefore, Obi-Wan could not defeat Vader. Yoda could not defeat Palpatine. (In fact, IIRC, they never make reference to Luke defeating the Emperor, only Vader.) Only Luke or Leia can bring Anakin back and only Anakin can defeat Palpatine. No other Jedi or combination of Jedi in the galaxy can. Yoda and Obi-Wan and Ahsoka and Kanan and Ezra and Jacen and Jaina and Anakin and all your F&D Jedi and all your EotE Jedi exiles and all the other Jedi and Sith living or dead or yet to be born in the galaxy could defeat either one of them.

Why? Because the Force is a jerk. Go talk to Darth Treya about it.

That said, Vader is going to kill Ahsoka. Probably not this season, but I don't see how their story can end any other way.

Agreed - although I hope it's Palp that kills her while Vader stands by and does nothing.
it's the only way to really setup Vader killing Palp in RotJ to be that much more powerful.

You know if it was long and extremely painful I'd actually watch that because I hate that character and would love to see her suffer.

She and jar jar made clone wars unwatchable.

How much of The Clone Wars did you watch?

I hated her at first. But by the time she left the series, I didn't cry, but my allergies started acting up, so some people might have thought I was.

See, I've got this long running idea that Yoda is always wrong. Yoda wanted Luke to hold off on fighting Vader, until Luke was ready to kill Vader. Yoda was wrong to want that waiting period.

By going to Bespin, Luke learned that Vader was his father. He saved his Sister, and was able to gather new allies for the struggle.

Had Luke not gone to Bespin, he would not have been able to separate Anikan Skywalker from Darth Vader. And being able to separate them was the key to the defeat of the Sith and the Unity of the Force.

So: Yoda was wrong. And Anikan's last words were basically to tell Luke that "you were right". Because Yoda was wrong.