Have you seen the original trilogy? how effective were stormtroopers in general? the one time they are super effective is when Vader is behind them at the start. Or sheer numbers when they assault Hoth. They are recruited and indoctinated to be loyal not effective. I think it captures that pulpy adventure feeling very well.

Why they miss:

http://imgur.com/gallery/w5MHii8

Guy has a good point.

In a matter of less than a minute they take a heavily guarded corridor in the Tantive with minimal casualties. They attack a defended position on Hoth without any element of surprise and overwhelm the Rebel defenders in shorts order. Sure they had the numbers edge and weaponry, but defending is always easier than attacking.

Observation(one which i've mentioned before):

Stormtroopers are lousy garrison troopers, but AMAZING assault/shock troopers.

Whenever they are on the defensive they lose, whenever they are on the offensive they usually win.

Hoth, Tantive IV, Bespin. All Empire victories, all effective. All on the attack.

Endor, the DS, Rebels - almost all defensive, sucky.

Possibilities: the B or C team are relegated to garrison duty.

Stormtrooper training is primarily shock trooper work.

And then there are those important, known characters like Tarkin and Vader, who are known for their ruthlessness, cunning and effectiveness... But they will never actually defeat protagonists because of plot armor, so we are having another The Force Unleashed moment (I utterly, absolutely and totally loathe that piece of bantha poodoo game for the plot) where yet another random, new character(s) beats Vader.

Umm.....doesn't Tarkin deal with things efficiently?

Doesn't Tarkin destroy the comm tower to prevent any word getting out? Doesn't he actually capture Kenan? I thought these things were impressive.

That's a very 'minor' victory for him - they broadcasted anyway, even Ahsoka commented on it, and Kenan escaped anyway. See, it's kinda like every episode of Power Rangers - lose a little, then win anyway. While it shows that Tarkin is not incompetent like the other laughable imperial officers, he still accomplishes nothing by the end of the season. And it'll most likely be the same with Vader - he will beat them in combat/outsmart them, then they will escape/win again anyway. Hence the "redshirt" mention - it would be good if they showed how screwed the rebs are with Vader there and, say, them losing the planet, having to find another one as they're persecuted by the Emperor's right hand. Or have someone important-ish die at Vader's hand.

And then there's this scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXKsQxQUfkA

That's what people ridiculed about captain Needa scene with Vader - you get ballsy, loyal imperial officers that actually put their heart into serving the Empire and... they get executed. That's literally only a mean to show that Vader/Empire is evil for the sake of being evil, just to overly saturate the black and white image of the galaxy.

Have you seen the original trilogy? how effective were stormtroopers in general? the one time they are super effective is when Vader is behind them at the start. Or sheer numbers when they assault Hoth. They are recruited and indoctinated to be loyal not effective. I think it captures that pulpy adventure feeling very well.

As someone already mentioned - stormtroopers were always mentioned in the books and movies as the best trained regular army in the galaxy, renowned for their drill, devotion to imperial cause and precise aim. The only reason why they missed so much in the movies is because the Empire didn't want to kill Luke, Leia and Han. Sadly enough they bit their own tail on that and just repeated the incompetent, sh*tty stormtrooper trope despite saying that they're so good.

Just remember that stormtroopers are basically the space version of Wehrmacht or even Schutzstaffel(SS), both of which were incredibly efficient armies with good leadership and equipment. I'd like to see that being shown on the screen aside from Tantive IV and Hoth scenes.

See, it's the same annoying thing with people thinking that all TIE Fighter pilots were like the "academy pilot" from this game while actually academy pilots (properly trained, definetely should be better than a "rookie pilot" if you ask me) only made up a small part of the fighter wings. The closest you get to "regular" TIE Fighter is obsidian squadron pilot. Academy pilots only flew with them to be tested in real battle.

Everything I've read about the season 2 premier points to Vader giving them a very bad time.

Just remember that stormtroopers are basically the space version of Wehrmacht or even Schutzstaffel(SS), both of which were incredibly efficient armies with good leadership and equipment. I'd like to see that being shown on the screen aside from Tantive IV and Hoth scenes.

To be fair - and it's actually relevant to the topic - the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS (I assume you mean the Waffen-SS and not SS generally) were pretty mediocre at the start of the war. The Waffen-SS indeed pretty **** dreadful , as they had the same issue many note for one interpretation of the Stormtroopers - they were selected for ideological reasons, and that's that. No special training, no special equipment, and rather full of themselves.

They did very badly, for a long time.

As the war rolled on, and casualties mounted, Hitler's preference for equipping the SS divisions better than the others - in hardware as well as officers - began to tell, and particularly once the Waffen-SS re-organized into Panzergrenadier divisions in 1942, then the situation started changing. By the time of the Allied invasions in Normandy in 1944, the remaining and re-organized Waffen-SS divisions were quite fiersome combatants - well armed, experienced, and still fanatical.

But the early-war experiences serve as a stark example to the disadvantages of selecting people for service based on "ideological" reasons, alone.

Observation(one which i've mentioned before):

Stormtroopers are lousy garrison troopers, but AMAZING assault/shock troopers.

Whenever they are on the defensive they lose, whenever they are on the offensive they usually win.

Hoth, Tantive IV, Bespin. All Empire victories, all effective. All on the attack.

Endor, the DS, Rebels - almost all defensive, sucky.

Possibilities: the B or C team are relegated to garrison duty.

Stormtrooper training is primarily shock trooper work.

I don't agree with your assessment. Garrison work and shock attacks basically boil down to the same thing once the shooting starts.

Garrison work universally sucks. The only way you suck at it, though, is through lax discipline and poor training and drill. Something that was unlikely to be a problem for Stormtroopers.

Just remember that stormtroopers are basically the space version of Wehrmacht or even Schutzstaffel(SS), both of which were incredibly efficient armies with good leadership and equipment. I'd like to see that being shown on the screen aside from Tantive IV and Hoth scenes.

To be fair - and it's actually relevant to the topic - the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS (I assume you mean the Waffen-SS and not SS generally) were pretty mediocre at the start of the war. The Waffen-SS indeed pretty **** dreadful , as they had the same issue many note for one interpretation of the Stormtroopers - they were selected for ideological reasons, and that's that. No special training, no special equipment, and rather full of themselves.

They did very badly, for a long time.

As the war rolled on, and casualties mounted, Hitler's preference for equipping the SS divisions better than the others - in hardware as well as officers - began to tell, and particularly once the Waffen-SS re-organized into Panzergrenadier divisions in 1942, then the situation started changing. By the time of the Allied invasions in Normandy in 1944, the remaining and re-organized Waffen-SS divisions were quite fiersome combatants - well armed, experienced, and still fanatical.

But the early-war experiences serve as a stark example to the disadvantages of selecting people for service based on "ideological" reasons, alone.

To be entirely fair, the Wehrmacht actually did really, really well early in the war. As well as any organization can be expected to do while testing new means and methods of warfare under live fire, against well-trained, well-equipped, well-motivated enemies for the first time. And, in fact, better than most. Better than the French, Poles, British, and Soviets they fought against.

The Waffen-SS was actually almost universally more poorly equipped than the Wehrmacht. The Wehrmacht didn't like them - they viewed them as toy soldiers and ensured that they didn't get the same quality or level of equipment as the Wehrmacht did (training schools only have so many open slots at a time and the Wehrmacht and Wehrmacht officers controlled who got into those slots), which in turn ensured the Waffen-SS performed poorly, which only reïnforced the Wehrmacht's perception of the W-SS as toy solders - and Hitler didn't care*. In fact, Hitler was more interested in keeping the Wehrmacht happy than in supplying the Waffen-SS as the Waffen-SS was chiefly ideological in nature. Perversely, this only added to the espirit de corps of the Waffen-SS. Further, while there were many units of the Waffen-SS that had a reputation as skilled and dangerous foes, much of the Waffen-SS's combat effectiveness remained a joke throughout the war (to be fair, much of the Wehrmacht's combat effectiveness was a joke by the end of the war, too).

And by 1944, there weren't many Germans with any experience left: Most of them were dead, wounded beyond being able to return to combat duty, or captured, with a few in charge of training new draftees (or performing other work a safe distance behind the front lines to prevent their valuable experience from being lost).

On the whole, the Waffen-SS and Wehrmacht performed on par with each other: The Waffen-SS was slightly more fanatical while the Wehrmacht was slightly better trained and slightly better equipped.

*Hitler intentionally administered the Reich with competing bureaucracies, interests, and parallel developments. It was horribly, horribly inefficient, but it kept Hitler in power because everybody was always gaming everybody else to gain Hitler's favor and could count on everybody else to gang up on anybody trying to take out Der Führer. (Which is why such competing power structures became a source of inspiration for the Baathists in Iraq and Syria.)

To be fair - and it's actually relevant to the topic - the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS (I assume you mean the Waffen-SS and not SS generally) were pretty mediocre at the start of the war. The Waffen-SS indeed pretty **** dreadful , as they had the same issue many note for one interpretation of the Stormtroopers - they were selected for ideological reasons, and that's that. No special training, no special equipment, and rather full of themselves.

They did very badly, for a long time.

As the war rolled on, and casualties mounted, Hitler's preference for equipping the SS divisions better than the others - in hardware as well as officers - began to tell, and particularly once the Waffen-SS re-organized into Panzergrenadier divisions in 1942, then the situation started changing. By the time of the Allied invasions in Normandy in 1944, the remaining and re-organized Waffen-SS divisions were quite fiersome combatants - well armed, experienced, and still fanatical.

But the early-war experiences serve as a stark example to the disadvantages of selecting people for service based on "ideological" reasons, alone.

Yes, By SS I meant Waffen-SS, obviously.

As for efficiency over time - I am not talking about their early performance but their overall performance during last years of war. When most people think about SS they think about Totenkopf division which, as far as I remember, was terrifying and won almost every battle, even when retreating.

And stormtroopers/imperial army are supposed to be like that too, thus the outrage over turning them into incompetent mooks.

incompetent, black white mooks and silly villians dont cut it nowadays in the stories i like.

Observation(one which i've mentioned before):

Stormtroopers are lousy garrison troopers, but AMAZING assault/shock troopers.

Whenever they are on the defensive they lose, whenever they are on the offensive they usually win.

Hoth, Tantive IV, Bespin. All Empire victories, all effective. All on the attack.

Endor, the DS, Rebels - almost all defensive, sucky.

Possibilities: the B or C team are relegated to garrison duty.

Stormtrooper training is primarily shock trooper work.

I don't agree with your assessment. Garrison work and shock attacks basically boil down to the same thing once the shooting starts.

Garrison work universally sucks. The only way you suck at it, though, is through lax discipline and poor training and drill. Something that was unlikely to be a problem for Stormtroopers.

Agree or not, the facts stand. When stormtroopers are shown on the attack in the movies they tend to win. Of course the joke is that it's only against NPCs...

Plot armour is strong stuff.

It is indeed.

This said, Rebels does take it to ridiculous proportions, with the stormtroopers being portrayed as comically incompetent, and even appearing almost cuddly. I'd like to see an ep or two of competent stormtrooper badassery.

And then there are those important, known characters like Tarkin and Vader, who are known for their ruthlessness, cunning and effectiveness... But they will never actually defeat protagonists because of plot armor, so we are having another The Force Unleashed moment (I utterly, absolutely and totally loathe that piece of bantha poodoo game for the plot) where yet another random, new character(s) beats Vader.

Umm.....doesn't Tarkin deal with things efficiently?

Doesn't Tarkin destroy the comm tower to prevent any word getting out? Doesn't he actually capture Kenan? I thought these things were impressive.

That's a very 'minor' victory for him - they broadcasted anyway, even Ahsoka commented on it, and Kenan escaped anyway. See, it's kinda like every episode of Power Rangers - lose a little, then win anyway. While it shows that Tarkin is not incompetent like the other laughable imperial officers, he still accomplishes nothing by the end of the season. And it'll most likely be the same with Vader - he will beat them in combat/outsmart them, then they will escape/win again anyway. Hence the "redshirt" mention - it would be good if they showed how screwed the rebs are with Vader there and, say, them losing the planet, having to find another one as they're persecuted by the Emperor's right hand. Or have someone important-ish die at Vader's hand.

I have to say that the show is about good guys winning. I mean, it's not supposed to be about how the Empire crushes the rebel scum. I don't believe they will kill off a character in the first season. They are trying to build a story. First season is about how a group of rebels fight back in a backwater sector. You can devise from the previews that Season 2 is about how things get serious. The Empire brings Vader in and the rebel cell has to flee their planet. It's too hot for them. They run for their lives. I'm thinking Season 2 is about how they flee after making a big stink. Most likely they will find some sort of stability by the end of it. Season 3 will probably be about them striking back and being bigger and more organized. You have to look at the whole part of the story.

What I can say is that Tarkin is efficient at what he does, but he's not everywhere at one time. Tarkin does well and captures Kenan, but he hands him over to a competent person to guard. You can't blame Tarkin for the Inquisitor letting him escape. They have already stated that Vader is going to be scary. Once again, I don't think anyone major will be killed. They haven't even gone into back story too much. Maybe by Season 3 someone will get killed...or wounded to the point of retirement, but I don't think any of the original crew will die. Maybe some of the clones from TCW.

Remember, it is a kids show...

incompetent, black white mooks and silly villians dont cut it nowadays in the stories i like.

well, you aren't really the target audience for Rebels or even the overall story.

Star Wars hasn't changed - we have (meaning - most people in this discussion aren't under the age 15)

It's always been broad archetypes and always will be. Even the touches of nuance added to Empire don't change that in the grander scheme of things. If you want ambiguity and subtlety this isn't the right property to remain a fan of - especially with Disney running things (which I don't have a problem with). So really - I can't help but see the argument as anything other than a way for mature people to apologize for liking a childish thing (ie - yeah, it's kinda cool but I'm smart enough to see that this is dumb) as opposed to just owning the silly fun that a Saturday morning serial is supposed to be, plot armor and all

Zeb is probably the least likely to stick around. His big charachter arc is tied into Kallus. And that has a pretty clear pqth one way or the other.

Still, the reason star wars works is a distinct absence of moral ambiguity, everything else is/was brooding or depressing or "deep"; it is pulp and heroism in a time we arguably need it most.

A sympathetic Empire would be a poor fit, there is not really a satisfying story to be had there. Any story I can think of with a villainous protagonist ends in them doing the "not a bad guy at all" routine. And the rebellion was bursting at the seams with plenty of the "good nazis".

The new novel Tarkin is a somewhat, if not sympathetic, at least a point of view take on a Tarkin story

As for who makes it out of Rebels...since it is supposed to be a lead in to New Hope - if anybody wielding a lightsaber makes it out alive I'll be disappointed. Not because I dislike any of the characters but the distinct absence of Jedi or even Force adepts in the OT should be maintained. I don't want to watch Empire thinking that Kanan is hanging out in the break room of Echo Base, we just never see him or that Ashoka Tano is part of the Rebellion planning the attack on the Death Star.

Zeb is probably the least likely to stick around. His big charachter arc is tied into Kallus. And that has a pretty clear pqth one way or the other.

Yeah, but he's the token alien and the brute squad. You need the brute archetype and you need the alien in the group.

"I am the brute squad"

but the distinct absence of Jedi or even Force adepts in the OT should be maintained.

The only thing that needs to be done in that case is have any force users go to ground, or accounted for in some other way.

Just because George didn't have any force users in the movies doesn't mean they didn't exist, or that they shouldn't exist. It was always a bit of a plothole that no other Jedi managed to escape order 66, other than Yoda, and Kenobi. I mean if Yoda can hide out in a swamp for 18 years and Ben can hide out in the same desert as the Skywalkers... Then there should be a number of other Jedi who managed to avoid detection by the Empire.

..yes...however, why wouldn't they have linked up with the Rebellion like Tano has?

Leia says to Kenobi "you are our only hope" - not "you could be a huge help. We have a former Padawan you would know of and a couple of Jedi she found running around a couple of years ago" - Leia's 'father' is Bail Organa, who seems to be involved, if not leading / bankrolling the Rebels - he failed to mention he knew of at least three other Jedi?

Of course it's just plot holes and retconning - it would just seem to lessen the impact of Luke picking up the mantle of Jedi if there were hundreds out there still in hiding. But...maybe that's what "Return of the Jedi" actually could mean in retrospect - they all are able to return, not just that the way of the Jedi has been restored

(shrug)

Yeah, I think ROTS set up hidden Jedi pretty well.

Personally, I hope we get a Jedi who has become disillusioned with the Galaxy post Order 66. Who doesn't stand up against the Empire. I think that would be a great storyline for Rebels.

That said, Vader is going to kill Ahsoka. Probably not this season, but I don't see how their story can end any other way.

It wasn't that they didn't escape the clones it was that darth vader and other dark jedi hunted them down relentlessly for two decades, any hint of a force user was tracked down and they were either recruited or killed.

Even obi wan says "Now the jedi are all but extinct"

..yes...however, why wouldn't they have linked up with the Rebellion like Tano has?

Because Tano didn't exist in 1976...

Leia says to Kenobi "you are our only hope" - not "you could be a huge help.

Because he's the only Jedi she knows of? Which kinda makes you wonder how she knew about him and where he was, but the Empire didn't. He was also a Jedi Master, and there would of been very few of those left. Kenan for example isn't even a full fledged Knight since it seems order 66 was issued when he was still a padawan.

But...maybe that's what "Return of the Jedi" actually could mean in retrospect - they all are able to return, not just that the way of the Jedi has been restored

As I've said here, or at least one of the threads about Rebels. I hope that they don't feel the need to tie their hands in order to account for what George did. I'd hate to see characters killed off simply because "well then this line from ESB doesn't make sense".

If they kill them off because that's the story they want to tell, and it makes sense that's ok. But I don't want to think that Kenan and Ezra's fate has already been determined, just because of something Yoda said. Something that could be interpreted in more than one way, just like how Vader killed Anakin was.

Even obi wan says "Now the jedi are all but extinct"

Which as I said comes from the same person who told Luke that Vader killed his father.

It's quite clear that George had something in mind, but now that he's no longer really involved in it, they don't have to follow his vision.

The fact that Yoda and Ben survived is proof enough that it can be done, and if they can do it, so could others.

That said, Vader is going to kill Ahsoka. Probably not this season, but I don't see how their story can end any other way.

Agreed - although I hope it's Palp that kills her while Vader stands by and does nothing.

it's the only way to really setup Vader killing Palp in RotJ to be that much more powerful.

Kenobi was also a very good military leader. Ahsoka is tricky only because they are setting her to be rather high up in the fledgling Rebellion. But, that is about the only issue she presents, which I suspect Vader will rectify eventually.

I disagree about Palpatine killing Ahsoka. Having Vader kill her sets up Luke's importance in redemption. We have seen the bonds Anakin had with Obi-wan and Ahsoka. But it is Luke, his son that causes him to turn from the Darkside.