Give them more XP if you want to get to the level we see in the movies and shows.

So your ok with the idea that the player who doesn't want to spend his XP to get Force Rating 2+ gets a free boost and the player who doesn't mind about starting with just 1 is then told to spend his XP on a skill he may not have wanted?

I never said I agree with upping Force Ratings for free, I only pointed out that if you were to house rule it in, then for a group of just Force Users, it's not something that excludes some players. People who want to use the force more actively obviously benefit from it, but lightsaber wielders also use it (in their tree's special talents, things like Sense or Enhance, getting boosts when modding their lightsaber). You're being a force user because you want to use the force - even if it's in more subtle ways.

Yeah. I mean honestly starting characters are more on Initiate level than padawan. They start you out with essentially no talents or force powers (unless you want to suck forever instead of just at character generation you need to get a 4 or 5 in your primary characteristic). They also start you with enough to get a training lightsaber. Honestly "Knight" level play should be "Padawan" level play where you get a real lightsaber and enough XP to at least do some stuff.

This being said, I think that the starting characters are still relatively balanced to the mundane careers starting out. I don't think they should necessarily change the amount of starting XP; they should just manage our expectations better. Starting characters should explicitly be Initiates. We can decently (not perfectly but what do you expect from any RPG system) emulate the Padawan in the movies and TCW with 150 XP and a real lightsaber so why not just rename it Padawan level?

Yeah. I mean honestly starting characters are more on Initiate level than padawan. They start you out with essentially no talents or force powers (unless you want to suck forever instead of just at character generation you need to get a 4 or 5 in your primary characteristic). They also start you with enough to get a training lightsaber. Honestly "Knight" level play should be "Padawan" level play where you get a real lightsaber and enough XP to at least do some stuff.

This being said, I think that the starting characters are still relatively balanced to the mundane careers starting out. I don't think they should necessarily change the amount of starting XP; they should just manage our expectations better. Starting characters should explicitly be Initiates. We can decently (not perfectly but what do you expect from any RPG system) emulate the Padawan in the movies and TCW with 150 XP and a real lightsaber so why not just rename it Padawan level?

I disagree about sucking forever without a 4 or 5 in your primary charcteristic, it's often better to have more 3 around than a single 4, because you're more effective all around. And really any Jedi has at least 2 primary characteristics: willpower (for force use) and another tied to his spec , which could also change (Obi-Wan went from the agility centered Seeker career to the Intelligence based Guardian during the movies).

And i still don't think that 150 xp allows you to replicate Obi-Wan in TPM, that's a 300 xp build, and imo even kanan is closer to 200 (but it could be done with 150 maybe) Ahsoka? maybe she is a 150 build, i can't say but i suspect she too is more experienced.

As for the "padawan level" by RAW you already get a real lighsaber if you start with 150 xp.

That's what I meant. It should be called padawan level instead of knight level since you get a real lightsaber and enough XP to closer replicate a padawan than a knight. The base game is more like initiate level since you get a training lightsaber and are severely limited on what you can buy to start.

And sure, I agree that you don't need the 4 in a primary characteristic but if you spend most of your starting XP on talents and skills, you'll feel pretty far behind compared to the guy that bought 3s and/or 4s with starting XP and left the rest for later.

Haven't seen people get so hung up on names in while. Personally I think just a sidebar about starting with more xp some examples (150 xp, 300 xp, etc.) would suffice.

And simply paying 25 XP at character creation without having to work your way through a talent tree is a steal, given that a PC will earn that same amount of XP after two sessions while still being far more capable at using their Force powers than they would be at FR1 as well as access to more advanced powers like Battle Meditation and Bind. Stack this with specs such as Pathfinder, Seer or Sage (all of which have pretty direct lines to a Force Rating talent at 20 XP), and it's possible to have a starting PC with Force Rating 3, which is akin to having 4 ranks in a character's key skill.

This is an interesting comment. Can you explain what you mean by a comparison between force rating and a ranks in a key skill?

Haven't seen people get so hung up on names in while. Personally I think just a sidebar about starting with more xp some examples (150 xp, 300 xp, etc.) would suffice.

Personally, I don't give a flying...force power...what they call it. When I play an RPG, I want it to be relatively balanced even if the labels don't perfectly match what we see on-screen. So far, I think they're doing a pretty decent job (especially compared to Saga edition where I would usually make a nigh-invulnerable Jedi that forced everyone to attack it instead of the other PCs).

I just don't want people to make up a character thinking they're going to feel like a movie-level Jedi Knight because it says Knight level play then think the system sucks as a whole because of that first impression. Sure, we could all just say those people are stupid, but on the other hand they could just change the label.

However I'm starting to think that this way of representing characters is wrong: either the smuggler/bounty hunter/Commando/Diplomat have to go through their teething/training period where they suck mightily or having the Jedi do that is unfair. Maybe they should make the knight-level starting mandatory instead of optional, especially in mixed groups, or the force users will be unjustly gimped compared to their teammates.

Words don't exist in our language to point out how terrible an idea this is and why no one in their right mind should agree with you. Suffice to say, it's things like this that make me wish that Knight Level will be removed entirely from the book. Force user do NOT need 150 more XP and 9000 more credits than EoE and AoR character because you think they are going through an awkward phase that "gimps" them. F&D characters are just as valid and capable as characters from either of the other games, and any comment to the contrary is little more that a statement of power gaming.

Knight level play is for everyone. If my GM gave the Jedi 150xp and didn't give the Politician 150xp too, he would be one player short the next game. As a GM you have to be unbiased and impartial and that level of impartial just looks like the campaign will not be much fun for anyone other than the Jedi.

I personally will not have the Knight rules myself. I like the process of slowly evolving and adding enhancements to characters, jumping to 150+xp just isn't as much fun as playing for the XP and earning it all.

I've long been playing with +50, +100, +150, and even +300 XP, long before FaD Beta was out. It's fun! Gives you the chance to envision and realize an "advanced" or "experienced" character. Especially for short-run campaigns or one-shots. So, I'm glad it's in the book and don't think it's detrimental at all. I think it adds some extra validity to what some GMs have been doing all along.

Similarly, as our campaigns would progress, we've kept running tallies of xp gained from play and let new characters come in at similar tiers. We didn't usually up the $ for them, but we've found that those extra starting xp make for a more specialized character, and actually reduced people wanting to spend all their starting xp on characteristics because it's one of the "best choices."

So I don't think introducing tiers is really any kind of problem, as long as no one character benefits more than the others from it.

Whafrog,

You seem fairly insistent that a Jedi would have to have powers like Sense and Seek, committing Force dice to their effects.

But why couldn't they just have talents like Side Step or Defensive Stance or Dodge in order to avoid attacks? Or simply have high ranks in Perception and Vigilance in order to 'sense' things that others wouldn't or react to danger before others know it's there?

In the case of defensive talents, it can easily be narrated to be an effect of the "Jedi" using their Force-senses to be more aware of incoming danger and thus avoiding it. Mechanically it's the same effect, particularly the Dodge talent as a "split-second warning sense," particularly in a one-on-one fight.

And a number of Jedi types are going to have a high Willpower anyway, so that covers Vigilance in terms of fast reactions to danger. Perception is an easy enough skill to buy up, particularly if one's career offers it as a career skill. And having enough skill ranks means the 'Jedi' is able to perceive and react to danger faster than the average person would.

Whafrog,

You seem fairly insistent that a Jedi would have to have powers like Sense and Seek, committing Force dice to their effects.

But why couldn't they just have talents like Side Step or Defensive Stance or Dodge in order to avoid attacks? Or simply have high ranks in Perception and Vigilance in order to 'sense' things that others wouldn't or react to danger before others know it's there?

Because those aren't specifically, per Qui Gon, "Jedi traits". They could certainly do what you suggest as well, but those are within reach of anyone, and have nothing to do with the Force.

BTW, it's not that I think they "have to have" those powers, it's that if you take that route to role-play a Jedi (which most closely captures the flavour of a Jedi, all just MHO of course), then FR2 at Knight level doesn't really express it.

The (mechanical) difference between "I have a bad feeling about this" and "I sense a disturbance in the Force"?

The (mechanical) difference between "I have a bad feeling about this" and "I sense a disturbance in the Force"?

Is pretty much zilch.

A Vigilance check with several successes is going to have the same net result of a that person earning a top spot in the initiative order, regardless of whether it's a straight Vigilance check, has a boost die or two from Uncanny Reactions, an upgrade from Seek, or bonus successes from Foresee.

it all boils down to the narrative description the player puts on it.

it all boils down to the narrative description the player puts on it.

Definitely not. The mechanics are there to help frame the narrative. Otherwise, why have these Force abilities defined at all?

it all boils down to the narrative description the player puts on it.

Definitely not. The mechanics are there to help frame the narrative. Otherwise, why have these Force abilities defined at all?

Because a robust system is a good thing to have.

Awayputurwpn hit the nail on the head, particularly since this system has been repeatedly identified by the designers as a narrative system.

How the PC describes the mechanics and end results can vary from one PC to the next, and not even involve any Force powers or effects. How a Smuggler/Scoundrel describes the usage of the Side Step talent is very likely to be different from how a Commander/Tactician describes their usage of Side Step... unless you've got a bunch of players that are unimaginative dunderheads that can't see past the mechanics. Heck, a Shii-Cho Knight employing Parry is probably going to have a very different description than a Niman Disciple or Makashi Duelist would have employing the exact same talent.

Whether or not the Force gets involved can be largely a choice of the player and doesn't require them to have Specific Force Power X... unless the GM is also an unimaginative dunderhead and doesn't allow their players the option of going outside the box for how they describe a skill check.

As an example from one of my own characters, I have a Smuggler/Scoundrel/Emergent/Ataru Striker and I often narrated his attacks with his blaster pistol as the character half-closing his eyes, taking a couple of calming breath, and then squeezing off one or two shots, with his 1 rank in the skill being a reflection of his semi-consciously using the Force to increase the accuracy of his shots. Meanwhile, another PC with Agility 3 and 1 rank in Ranged: Light was instead describing her attacks as simply firing like a mad-woman and putting as many blaster bolts in the air as possible with the hope that at least a couple of them hit their mark. Mechanically, we both had a dice pool of 1 Proficiency and 2 Ability dice when attacking with our blaster pistols, but our narrative descriptions of how the attacks took place varied significantly.

But I suppose that if I were unfortunate enough to have whafrog as my GM, he would have shot that down and required my character to have the offensive Control Upgrade for Sense if I wanted to use that description, or even if I'd wanted to employ Side Step with the flavor text of "using my Force senses to focus on avoiding any ranged attacks that are coming my way" since by his definition that's solely the purview of Sense's defensive Control Upgrade, even though the net result (an increase to the difficulty of ranged attacks to hit my character) is ultimately the same. Or that he'd balk at a Soresu Defender explaining his use of Defensive Stance as "trusting the Force to speed my reflexes to avoid/counter any melee attacks that target me" for much the same reason, though again the net result (an increase to the difficulty of someone attack the character with a melee attack is increased) is the same.

I've got a PC in my game that was quite interested in playing a Force-sensitive character that didn't really acknowledge himself as being Force-sensitive, sticking with "subtle" powers that he could explain as lucky breaks, using those Force powers as mechanically intended but narrating them as not being anything too out of the ordinary instead, focusing on Sense (particularly the Ongoing Effects) and Enhance (skill boosts with no Force Leap ability). I think he's moving more towards embracing the "I'm a Force user!" part of the character since he's expressed an interest in taking Move, but time will tell.

But I suppose that if I were unfortunate enough to have whafrog as my GM, he would have shot that down ...

Not likely...and once again, you go personal with no basis other than the "argument of the moment" and having misunderstood the argument. You seem to get bitter every time I don't bow to your opinion or there is a miscommunication.

I grant I did not acknowledge your point about different sources for a result. It's a valid point. It's just that for me (and I never argued this would be true for anyone else but me...) I would want to feel justified narrating the application of committing a Force die as specifically "calling on the Force". It's active rather than passive. I never said anybody else has to do that.

I've got a PC in my game that was quite interested in playing a Force-sensitive character that didn't really acknowledge himself as being Force-sensitive, sticking with "subtle" powers that he could explain as lucky breaks, using those Force powers as mechanically intended but narrating them as not being anything too out of the ordinary instead, focusing on Sense (particularly the Ongoing Effects) and Enhance (skill boosts with no Force Leap ability). I think he's moving more towards embracing the "I'm a Force user!" part of the character since he's expressed an interest in taking Move, but time will tell.

That's very close to a PC I've been hoping to run.

I begin my force players with Force Rating two and non-force players get a free dedication and a free 2nd specialization. I also begin my games with bonus 300XP and it is working out great. I don't enjoy running beginning characters. Also they players are actual Jedi Padawans that escaped the temple during Anikan's attack and continued their training in secret with Quinlan Vos before he retired.