Do you guys think it would be too over powered to let "knight level" characters to spend 20-50 XP to start with a Force Rating of 2?

I'd be ok with an extra talent that allows you to spend 20xp for and extra force rating.

I would either like to make that house rule or a universal tree that covers basic jedi training for padawans.

The additional force rating would only be allowed when using knight level play. I only want to add it so characters can be roughly the same level as Obi-wan in episode 1 and Maybe Kanan m

The universal jedi tree would be like the recruit tree and I see Luke taking it.

I don't think the system needs another Universal tree, especially a force sensitive one. Both of the FSE trees cover untrained or out of practice force users pretty well. Any of the existing trees would easily be a youngling or a Padawan in training.

Rather than going outside the tree with a special rule, the simplest is probably to just let them consider the next FR Talent in their tree as purchased-at-cost ahead of time. However, I wouldn't let them purchase any other Talents that have that as a requirement until they fill in the rest of the path.

That idea I like whafrog thanks

I would either like to make that house rule or a universal tree that covers basic jedi training for padawans.

I do think they should add that to the core F&D, or at least an era supplement of some kind.

Yes. Yes I do.

If a player wants Force rating 2, they can buy it like everyone else. They have, what, 150 extra XP the spend? They should be able the clear a tree and pick up Force Rating with that. I don't see what the problem is here.

Do you guys think it would be too over powered to let "knight level" characters to spend 20-50 XP to start with a Force Rating of 2?

Yes.

Remember that PCs in this game are not on the same level as a properly-trained Jedi would be. Obi-Wan in TPM had the benefit of 20+ years of Jedi training to get to the point he was at, and I'd say he's closer to being a 300 XP character anyways since he was on the cusp of becoming a Jedi Knight by that point (Qui-Gon even admitted to the Council there wasn't much left for him to teach his apprentice by that point). Kanan too had the benefit of proper Jedi training, and another 14 years of experience on top of it, again putting him well past the 150 XP mark that is Knight level.

if anything, the PCs in Force and Destiny, even at Knight level, are meant to be closer to Luke Skywalker at the start of ANH or Ezra Bridger in Spark of Rebellion; both of them are certainly competent and capable, but not anywhere close to being experts at using the Force. As has been noted elsewhere, Knight-level is something of a misnomer, as most PCs at that level won't be anywhere close to what would likely qualify as a Jedi Knight and is instead simply a nifty name for "starting play with advanced characters instead of regular starting characters."

If a PC really does want Force Rating 2 when the character enters play, they can use their starting XP to work towards purchasing it just the same as any other PC would purchase Dedication. There are specializations where getting to Force Rating 2 is certainly possible with the 150 XP provided by Knight level.

And if they want to focus on being more than just proficient with a lightsaber, then they're going to have to accept that doing so comes with the trade-off of not being as good at using the Force as PCs that opted to take specializations that aren't focused on lightsaber badassery.

Yes. Yes I do.

If a player wants Force rating 2, they can buy it like everyone else. They have, what, 150 extra XP the spend? They should be able the clear a tree and pick up Force Rating with that. I don't see what the problem is here.

If the sentiments expressed during the EotE Beta are any indication (with folks trying to insist that Dedication could be used to increase Force Rating in spite of said trait not being a Characteristic), it's mostly built upon power-gaming desires to cheaply increase Force Rating without having to actually work at doing so.

What Force Rating a player starts with is mostly down to player choice. If you as the GM want to give them more choice, just give them more XP. But keep in mind, something not earned is seldom valued.

I would either like to make that house rule or a universal tree that covers basic jedi training for padawans.

I do think they should add that to the core F&D, or at least an era supplement of some kind.

I actually have been mulling over the idea of another universal specialization tree as part of F&D which sort of acts like a general spec for basic Force User/Jedi stuff. Much like the Recruit Specialization does in AoR. It would make sense thematically in keeping with all the cores so far.

Consider the two specs already presented:

EoTE's force user spec represents Jedi/Force Sensitives in hiding, and it assumes Jedi/Force Users who already have basic knowledge/training and are now using their skills to survive in a dangerous galaxy. It's not a continuation of the formal training afforded by the Jedi Order, but its got plenty of talents that help with general survival and combat in a galaxy where they must remain hidden in exile.

You've then got the budding force user in AoR. The force sensitive from AoR is informally trained, starts to learn basic force abilities, and learns how to start using the force as a boon. They're still not formally trained, but they're getting a more basic overview of how to train and use the form. It's a quick run to the FR in that tree and that makes sense, since individuals are just coming into their power are quick to adsorb anything and everything they can to learn.

What I think would be great and keeping with the themes established in the cores, would be to add a more formally trained Force User as a universal spec. A "Force Sensitive Apprentice", who received formal training (either from Jedi, Sith, or some other established organization), and has a talent tree that is well rounded and provides general abilities. Stuff like Uncanny Reactions, Uncanny Senses, maybe a rank or two of Parry and Reflect, and perhaps adds a few career skills like the previous specs did to round out a character. It should also offer a quick run to FR talent as well, like the emergent.

This would allow for more "properly trained Jedi" like Donovan stated, by providing a spec players can add to their characters to make them more well rounded as force users, with quick and "cheaper" abilities they can gobble up to flesh out their concepts, but not be especially overpowered or unbalanced as it still requires an investment of XP.

I don't personally think the game needs another universal Force talent tree. I'm certainly not opposed to another one, especially as a house rule, but I think that the two from the prior books fill that "recruit" style of tree for Force-users pretty well. Sure, they may not be perfectly adapted to apprentice Jedi, but I think they fit the more broad Force-using initiate from any of the various tradition. I'd just rename it to apprentice or whatever if I were taking it as a current Force-user.

Regardless, to OP's point, I'd say yes, that option would be somewhat overpowered. Just let them spend 95XP getting +1FR through the Emergent tree and pick up a few other nice things along the way. Alternatively, Seer can get +1FR for 90XP, Sage can get +1FR for 100XP. All sorts of trees get +1FR for far cheaper if they're in-career and/or you're already going down them to get other stuff. Creating a separate talent for +1FR seems unnecessary and somewhat overpowered.

I don't personally think the game needs another universal Force talent tree. I'm certainly not opposed to another one, especially as a house rule, but I think that the two from the prior books fill that "recruit" style of tree for Force-users pretty well. Sure, they may not be perfectly adapted to apprentice Jedi, but I think they fit the more broad Force-using initiate from any of the various tradition. I'd just rename it to apprentice or whatever if I were taking it as a current Force-user.

Regardless, to OP's point, I'd say yes, that option would be somewhat overpowered. Just let them spend 85XP getting +1FR through the Emergent tree and pick up a few other nice things along the way.

Well like I said, it keeps with the established precedence and it should be a more viable spec like the Recruit is. Emergent and Exile are nice trees, but they're more stylized. Recruit's purpose--which you can read in its description--is a formalized military training that allows characters to fill in the gaps for military roles. If they had something similar for people who want to make more PT Jedi, it would go a long way. Besides, more career/specialization options means allows for more character customization and concepts, which is a good thing.

I agree that those two trees are more specific in their intent, and the talents placed within them reflect that (case-in-point: 2 ranks each of indistinguishable and slight of mind in Emergent). I just don't think another universal tree for Force-users is necessary for the book considering they have two universals plus their three career already. I'm not opposed to it being in the book; I just don't think it's necessary considering the options they already have. I'd also be totally cool with a house rule if one of my players wanted one (or if I got to play in a Star Wars game instead of running it lol), but I feel I would disallow the character from picking up the Emergent tree in addition.

What I like about DeepEyes' proposal is it could free up some space in the other F&D trees for more flavourful talents (fewer Parry and Reflect, etc). Also, given that F&D careers have fewer skills, and there is often considerable overlap between the spec and career (which I understand is necessary for game balance but actually makes little sense in-world), having a tree with Well-Rounded and other similar talents would help flesh out a character growing up in a setting where the training is more formalized.

Though, to be fair, I don't think Recruit has Well Rounded either if I remember correctly. Also, I'd say that your tree would result in a Jedi/Sith Apprentice tree rather than a more general Force-user tree if you included Parry and Reflect (Reflect specifically since it requires a lightsaber). Considering the desired era, they might want it to be more generally applicable to all force-users rather than specifically designed for lightsaber-wielding traditions. That being said, I reiterate that I'm completely fine with the idea of an additional universal tree; I just don't think characters should necessarily have the option to take it in addition to the universal trees already present for force-users. It would be easy to just add a tag saying a character can't take all three of Emergent, Exile, and Apprentice.

I agree that those two trees are more specific in their intent, and the talents placed within them reflect that (case-in-point: 2 ranks each of indistinguishable and slight of mind in Emergent). I just don't think another universal tree for Force-users is necessary for the book considering they have two universals plus their three career already. I'm not opposed to it being in the book; I just don't think it's necessary considering the options they already have. I'd also be totally cool with a house rule if one of my players wanted one (or if I got to play in a Star Wars game instead of running it lol), but I feel I would disallow the character from picking up the Emergent tree in addition.

Well, I would argue it's essentially the same as Hired Gun from EoTE and AoR's Soldier. Different name for the same thing, yet not entirely the same. We have 12+ non-force using careers, why bother adding more?

I think the problem is the visualization or conception of this imagined "third universal force spec" and what exactly it would do and have in it. I think there's enough that can be with a third spec which would warrant it even existing and offering different bonuses in what it could do.

Really, I think what would be more ideal, would be to make this spec only available as part of a variant rule with "Knight Play". I imagine it as such: If you allow the use of Knight Level Play, a player after character creation gets the 150 xp, access to this "Force Sensitive Apprentice" specialization for free, and access to the Mentor benefit (the reduction in base force training).

Now this may be a lot but my logic behind it is this: If you want to be able to effectively play a Jedi similar to what you see in the Clone Wars/PT, then you can do so with this optional rule. It's to represent a more formal training the player received such as Jedi, Sith, Imperial Knight, Dathromiri Witch, etc. The benefits would be that It will allow you access to a tree that will allow you to get FR fast, as well a other little goodies that make up a basic force user. You would have trained under a Mentor(s), so you get the benefit of the reduced force power cost as well.

A player can then have out the box a pretty advanced force user. He/she could conceivably have a FR 2 for 50 xp, leaving 100 xp for force powers with some upgrades to them, and a bunch of other skills and other trees they can buy into to flesh out a character who had the benefit of that training.

Now this may be a bit unbalanced, but I don't particularly feel it's so grossly out of whack as to throw the game. Hence why it would be an OPTIONAL RULE as already presented in the book, and thus at the GMs discretion. You could even do variations like variant A) the original knight level play rule, variant B) Access to the tree as well, and variant C) all the above with the added benefit of the Mentor perk.

But I agree with Alatar 1313,

I just don't think characters should necessarily have the option to take it in addition to the universal trees already present for force-users. It would be easy to just add a tag saying a character can't take all three of Emergent, Exile, and Apprentice.

That should be left up to GM discretion. I would say maybe put a caveat in that if they choose the Knight Level Play option (the one I propose above), that they can't access the Emergent spec. Though, I don't think it's really necessary to put that in, and it should just be left up to the GM's approval. However, I certainly wouldn't allow a player in one of my games to take both Emergent and the new spec.

They both essentially represent the same thing, a force sensitive coming into his own power and learning the force, but Emergent represents a more informal "learn as you go" type of characters while the other proposed spec represents a more formally trained "school taught" type. So, depending on campaign I run and what my players wish to play, it would be one or the other. If it's a Rebellion Era campaign and the player wants to make a budding force user learning from a holocron or some such, then he/she would need to take Emergent. Conversely, if they want to represent a padawan who survived the clone wars, they would then take the proposed spec.

Anyway, it would allow for greater flexibility, allow as an alternative rule to players who want more powerful Jedi and such in their games, but doesn't force the mechanic on GMs who rather run a more low-keyed game.

Well, I would argue it's essentially the same as Hired Gun from EoTE and AoR's Soldier. Different name for the same thing, yet not entirely the same. We have 12+ non-force using careers, why bother adding more?

I think the problem is the visualization or conception of this imagined "third universal force spec" and what exactly it would do and have in it. I think there's enough that can be with a third spec which would warrant it even existing and offering different bonuses in what it could do.

That's a different situation. I'm not really arguing against the existence of the tree; I'm just arguing it either shouldn't be universal or shouldn't be available by default to anyone that wants to pick it up along with the other two universal trees. I'd be fine with the whole idea if it cost 10 more XP to buy in.

Now this may be a bit unbalanced, but I don't particularly feel it's so grossly out of whack as to throw the game. Hence why it would be an OPTIONAL RULE as already presented in the book, and thus at the GMs discretion.

...

Anyway, it would allow for greater flexibility, allow as an alternative rule to players who want more powerful Jedi and such in their games, but doesn't force the mechanic on GMs who rather run a more low-keyed game.

If it's clearly labeled as an optional rule to be included a case-by-case basis based on the era and story, that's also fine with me. I just feel it shouldn't be left to the GM to ban it or increase its cost considering that Force-users already have two universal trees to pick up.

As a GM, I always prefer to be the one giving characters more options than taking them away. It's a lot easier to say that we're not using an optional rule than it is to change something that is part of the basic rules-as-written. Then again, I run games primarily for rules-lawyers (a few of whom are also laws-lawyers). So, perhaps that preference comes more from the group of people I choose to associate with.

Really, I think what would be more ideal, would be to make this spec only available as part of a variant rule with "Knight Play". I imagine it as such: If you allow the use of Knight Level Play, a player after character creation gets the 150 xp, access to this "Force Sensitive Apprentice" specialization for free, and access to the Mentor benefit (the reduction in base force training).

...in which case they could leave it out of the F&D book, but include it in any era or regional sourcebooks. So it would be available in a classic Old Republic (up to the end of TCW) setting. Then if they do a witches book there could be a new spec in there.

Really, I think what would be more ideal, would be to make this spec only available as part of a variant rule with "Knight Play". I imagine it as such: If you allow the use of Knight Level Play, a player after character creation gets the 150 xp, access to this "Force Sensitive Apprentice" specialization for free, and access to the Mentor benefit (the reduction in base force training).

...in which case they could leave it out of the F&D book, but include it in any era or regional sourcebooks. So it would be available in a classic Old Republic (up to the end of TCW) setting. Then if they do a witches book there could be a new spec in there.

I suppose, but as the devs have said, really these books (including F&D) can be used in all eras of play. It pretty much just gives you the foundation. Would be nice if they added something like that in now instead of having to wait for another splatbook to get it.

If it's clearly labeled as an optional rule to be included a case-by-case basis based on the era and story, that's also fine with me. I just feel it shouldn't be left to the GM to ban it or increase its cost considering that Force-users already have two universal trees to pick up.

As a GM, I always prefer to be the one giving characters more options than taking them away. It's a lot easier to say that we're not using an optional rule than it is to change something that is part of the basic rules-as-written. Then again, I run games primarily for rules-lawyers (a few of whom are also laws-lawyers). So, perhaps that preference comes more from the group of people I choose to associate with.

That I agree with, I prefer optional rules that are able to give what players want, and something you can work out with the GM instead of having to house rule it all the time. Though when it comes to rules-lawyers, I'm usually the one who takes up that mantel in my gaming group.

If it's clearly labeled as an optional rule to be included a case-by-case basis based on the era and story, that's also fine with me. I just feel it shouldn't be left to the GM to ban it or increase its cost considering that Force-users already have two universal trees to pick up.

As a GM, I always prefer to be the one giving characters more options than taking them away. It's a lot easier to say that we're not using an optional rule than it is to change something that is part of the basic rules-as-written. Then again, I run games primarily for rules-lawyers (a few of whom are also laws-lawyers). So, perhaps that preference comes more from the group of people I choose to associate with.

That I agree with, I prefer optional rules that are able to give what players want, and something you can work out with the GM instead of having to house rule it all the time. Though when it comes to rules-lawyers, I'm usually the one who takes up that mantel in my gaming group.

Oh, I am too. I'm also a laws-lawyer so it comes with the territory. Being a rules-lawyer myself is exactly why I'm so reluctant to ban or change stuff except on specific request from my players; I know all the arguments I'd make against nerfing my character.

Actually, I think a great way to do it would be to release it as an explicitly optional rule via web-supplement. That way, it's still official but placed outside what's considered by most players to be automatically available for everyone.