Really, I think what would be more ideal, would be to make this spec only available as part of a variant rule with "Knight Play". I imagine it as such: If you allow the use of Knight Level Play, a player after character creation gets the 150 xp, access to this "Force Sensitive Apprentice" specialization for free, and access to the Mentor benefit (the reduction in base force training).

...in which case they could leave it out of the F&D book, but include it in any era or regional sourcebooks. So it would be available in a classic Old Republic (up to the end of TCW) setting. Then if they do a witches book there could be a new spec in there.

I'm not sure they'll do a witches book specifically, but I would bet money they'll do a supplement covering most of the non-Jedi/Sith force traditions unless their license somehow evaporates before they get to it.

I would advise against the suggestions in the OP; let people pay the XP for the talents they want.

If you as the GM really want everyone to have +1 Force Rating, then maybe just tell them that you want to start out with an extra Force rating for everyone, to make it a "super-powered" game.

In either case, if you're going to be starting Knight Level and you're planning on running a campaign of 10+ sessions, I would stick to the talent trees as-is. There are plenty of opportunities in there to raise your Force Rating. 150 extra XP will get you there in no time. But if you want to put together PCs with Obi-Wan's capabilities (late Padawan / early Knighthood stage), I'd recommend something closer to Knight Level x2 (300 extra XP).

Here's an Obi-Wan Episode 1 build, assuming a starting character with 300 extra XP:

If it's clearly labeled as an optional rule to be included a case-by-case basis based on the era and story, that's also fine with me. I just feel it shouldn't be left to the GM to ban it or increase its cost considering that Force-users already have two universal trees to pick up.

As a GM, I always prefer to be the one giving characters more options than taking them away. It's a lot easier to say that we're not using an optional rule than it is to change something that is part of the basic rules-as-written. Then again, I run games primarily for rules-lawyers (a few of whom are also laws-lawyers). So, perhaps that preference comes more from the group of people I choose to associate with.

That I agree with, I prefer optional rules that are able to give what players want, and something you can work out with the GM instead of having to house rule it all the time. Though when it comes to rules-lawyers, I'm usually the one who takes up that mantel in my gaming group.

Oh, I am too. I'm also a laws-lawyer so it comes with the territory. Being a rules-lawyer myself is exactly why I'm so reluctant to ban or change stuff except on specific request from my players; I know all the arguments I'd make against nerfing my character.

Actually, I think a great way to do it would be to release it as an explicitly optional rule via web-supplement. That way, it's still official but placed outside what's considered by most players to be automatically available for everyone.

I don't think they would do a web-supplement. I mean at least, I don't think I've seen something like that before. Don't see why not just adding it to F&D proper. But this is all speculation and wish-list stuff either way. But I would be interested in seeing an additional spec tree like the other games that have been introduced. I guess we'll see.

x.x I was saying web supplement because I kinda figured there's no way it would make it into the actual book.

Though, they do have a followup adventure to the AoR beginner game out as a web supplement ( https://s3.amazonaws.com/ffgweb/ffgdownloads/SWAP01+Operation+Shadowpoint+WQ.pdf ). Also, it's been done for all sorts of WotC d20 RPGs including Star Wars Saga; I don't see why FFG couldn't throw some bonus material out there if they wanted to. Of course, still very unlikely....just a nice thought.

x.x I was saying web supplement because I kinda figured there's no way it would make it into the actual book.

Though, they do have a followup adventure to the AoR beginner game out as a web supplement ( https://s3.amazonaws.com/ffgweb/ffgdownloads/SWAP01+Operation+Shadowpoint+WQ.pdf ). Also, it's been done for all sorts of WotC d20 RPGs including Star Wars Saga; I don't see why FFG couldn't throw some bonus material out there if they wanted to. Of course, still very unlikely....just a nice thought.

Very cool, did not know that. Thanks.

x.x I was saying web supplement because I kinda figured there's no way it would make it into the actual book.

Though, they do have a followup adventure to the AoR beginner game out as a web supplement ( https://s3.amazonaws.com/ffgweb/ffgdownloads/SWAP01+Operation+Shadowpoint+WQ.pdf ). Also, it's been done for all sorts of WotC d20 RPGs including Star Wars Saga; I don't see why FFG couldn't throw some bonus material out there if they wanted to. Of course, still very unlikely....just a nice thought.

They've done the same for Edge of the Empire Beginner Game (Long Arm of the Hutt) and for Edge of the Empire (Under a Black Sun). I would also expect them to eventually publicly release a PDF for Rescue at Glare Peak, the Rebellion Day 2014 adventure.

If this expectation holds true, then I don't see any reason why they wouldn't do exactly the same things with Force and Destiny (a free online adventure to follow the Beginner Game, and a limited-run adventure for publicity at FLGS's across the globe, which months later makes it into free PDF form). These products in EotE and AoR also have little tidbits of extra rules here and there, which can be useful for other adventures, so FaD might have something similar. It's anyone's guess as to what it would contain, of course.

This issue is actually quite relevant to the game that i'm currently running. We finished our first Edge of the Empire campaign after playing since the beta was released and just started a new game incorporating all three books. A player playing a non force user in a mixed party suggested that I allow the two characters from the FaD beta to start with a force rating of higher than two when we were using the knight rules. I was initially opposed to the idea, but his argument was pretty compelling. I'll synopsis it below.

Basically, he posits that a characters force rating serves as an implicit gate to force power purchases given the randomness of the power source in relation to activation costs. Take, for example, enhance. With a force rating of one, and the control (leap) and range upgrades, the utility (used in an economics sense) of the range upgrade to force leap is low given the number of single force pips on a force die. There's a 66.6 percent chance that with one force die you will not gain enough pips to activate the range upgrade of the power. This is without even considering the costs incurred by dark side pips. Given that I don't require that a character fling himself out over a void before determining the distance generated with the power activation, it doesn't pose a risk of character death, but it does have two primary negative effects.

First, it makes the expenditures on power upgrades an underwhelming proposition without first upgrading your force rating. This is not insignificant given experience rewards, talent costs, and time. Second, and perhaps more importantly, it involves player agency and expectation. It causes dissonance between what they expect to happen, having purchased a power, and the way the game mechanics work. If someone expends a player resource on a power, they should be able to reliably use that power, within reason. This seems particularly true for a new system, relatively speaking.

Ultimately, while I like the force dice mechanics in concept, I'm growing disenchanted with them in practice. I did allow the two players to start the game with a base rating of two. Even with two force dice both characters are rarely able to utilize their powers, given that one of those dice is typically locked for sense. If it didn't require an action to lock a die, it might be as significant. At t 250 earned experience their characters still feel underpowered in relation to the rest of the party. If the mystique of the Jedi weren't so powerful a draw, I'd imagine that they would have changed by now.

Neither of them are power gamers, but they want to feel useful, they want the powers that they purchase to be reasonably dependable, and they want their expectations of character agency met in relation to the source material. I definitely don't think that any of those things are unreasonable.

I would advise against the suggestions in the OP; let people pay the XP for the talents they want.

If you as the GM really want everyone to have +1 Force Rating, then maybe just tell them that you want to start out with an extra Force rating for everyone, to make it a "super-powered" game.

But that isn't all that much of an advantage if I took a Lightsaber Jedi and no force powers.

But that isn't all that much of an advantage if I took a Lightsaber Jedi and no force powers.

All lightsaber trees barring Shii-Cho have their big special talents that use force rating to amplify their effects. And if you didn't care about those, then there's still using Sense or Enhance to up your lightsaber wielding/ general combat prowess.

The only time upping everyone's force rating wouldn't be much of an advantage is if you had a mixed group - because what's a smuggler who doesn't want to be force sensitive, or even a droid, going to do with a force rating?

i make character at knight level with force rating 2 all the time. You have plenty of XP to get there.

But that isn't all that much of an advantage if I took a Lightsaber Jedi and no force powers.

All lightsaber trees barring Shii-Cho have their big special talents that use force rating to amplify their effects. And if you didn't care about those, then there's still using Sense or Enhance to up your lightsaber wielding/ general combat prowess.

The only time upping everyone's force rating wouldn't be much of an advantage is if you had a mixed group - because what's a smuggler who doesn't want to be force sensitive, or even a droid, going to do with a force rating?

So your ok with the idea that the player who doesn't want to spend his XP to get Force Rating 2+ gets a free boost and the player who doesn't mind about starting with just 1 is then told to spend his XP on a skill he may not have wanted?

The only time upping everyone's force rating wouldn't be much of an advantage is if you had a mixed group - because what's a smuggler who doesn't want to be force sensitive, or even a droid, going to do with a force rating?

Simple -- you'd give them a free Dedication instead.

In my Invasion of Theed conversion, I gave the pregen padawans FR2 from their respective classes to reflect their superior command of the Force having been, presumably, trained at an early age. It's an easy hack that adds power without complexity. I wouldn't do that in a standard, long-term campaign, but for a demo or mini-campaign, sure.

You could alternatively give them talents like enduring too. if dedication felt too grand. Though dedication is the best fit.

On principle, if the xp cost was prohibitive OR the non-force users were granted something equivalent, i see no real problem with granting additional fr to start. In many ways, that's probably something like the "skywalker" bloodline, as annikin as a kid may have started with Fr 3-4, enhance up to planetary piloting, and that's it. But it's jsut as easy to say that annikin was an artisan with very specific talents taken, with enough genenral xp to be in the same league as obiwan.

Me personally, I wouldn't give characters any bonus fr options. Back prior to F&D, I talked about it with a player, because he was going to start out a campaign sensitive with the exile, and he wanted to start out force strong as part of the concept. Taking a page from the nemesis design options in the edge gm kit, I suggested that FR could be obtained at chargen for 45 xp. So a human could start at FR 3 if they REALLY wanted to, but that would be it. no powers, no talents, no extra skills or stats. Pretty rough, and he agreed that seemed fair, and that he would think about it. in the end he decided not to. 45 may have been too high, but I think 40 may have been a good amount.

F&D kinda negates this need though. With all these specs, obtaining a high FR is possible, so making special considerations I don't think is necessary.

Here's an Obi-Wan Episode 1 build, assuming a starting character with 300 extra XP:

Looking at your build, I never noticed that I don't think Obi-wan tries to mind trick anyone in TPM. I never processed that before. Interesting.

Here's an Obi-Wan Episode 1 build, assuming a starting character with 300 extra XP:

Looking at your build, I never noticed that I don't think Obi-wan tries to mind trick anyone in TPM. I never processed that before. Interesting.

Yeah...I did a quick scan through the film and tried to be as thematically appropriate as possible. It was a challenge to keep it to 300 XP if I'd had my druthers, I would've given him Lightsaber 3 instead of 2. I guess you could take away that top-tier Parry for 5 and the Control upgrade for Enhance...if that catwalk leap was Short range

I think it would be better to just give more XP instead of giving free force rating or anything else. I think giving free force rating is going to make things wonky.

I don't see the big problem with giving 1 Fr increase at chargen, instead of having to spend lots of xp and having a gimped character for many adventures. Non Force users can get a free dedication rank to balance things out (even if it's arguably much more overpowering as stats control multiple skills).

Because a Force using character will be gimped with only 1 force die as his activations of force powers will be random, and, if he is the only Force user in a party,then the Force is his special strenght and not being able to use it somewhat reliably will make him underpowered compared to his teammates and less useful to the party; if the party is full of Force users well they will all be gimped because by default all the party will rely on their force powers.

So why such insistence that starting at FR2 it's a bad thing and overpowering and makes things wonky?

I understand an argument against starting with FR 3 or above, but IMO FR2 is a good balance between more reliable activation/use of powers and overpowering characters.

Here's a question...

Which PCs are the ones asking/begging for the free boost to Force Rating?

If it's the ones who took a Lightsaber Form as their primary specialization, then what they're trying to do is work around the trade-off that having the cool Form-based talents like Parry and Reflect (as well as their improved versions that allow free attacks under the right circumstances) as well as some pretty potent combat options that are tied to using a lightsaber, such as Sarlacc Sweep, Saber Swarm, Defensive Circle, and Draw Closer. In short, they're being power-gaming munchkins in trying to have their cake and eat it too, getting a boost to their Force Rating in spite of having a spec that doesn't include the Force Rating talent (which again, is a deliberately designed trade-off given how potent a lightsaber can become, either with a highly modified Ilum crystal or using some of the better crystals like Krayt Dragon Pearl or Mephite crystals).

And even if it's not just the 'saber-monkeys begging for the cheat, there's a significant boost in competency between FR1 and FR2. And simply paying 25 XP at character creation without having to work your way through a talent tree is a steal, given that a PC will earn that same amount of XP after two sessions while still being far more capable at using their Force powers than they would be at FR1 as well as access to more advanced powers like Battle Meditation and Bind. Stack this with specs such as Pathfinder, Seer or Sage (all of which have pretty direct lines to a Force Rating talent at 20 XP), and it's possible to have a starting PC with Force Rating 3, which is akin to having 4 ranks in a character's key skill.

You're right i have been looking at the issue from the wrong side.

There are no starting Jedis, I guess a Jedi is better considered as the equivalent of a Prestige Class in D&D. So you have to pass through the stages where you either are good at the Force and suck at combat or the other way round before you get good at both and can be a Jedi. The movies/cartoons have really spoiled us cause we see Ahsoka and think it should be doable at chargen/Knight level when she has spent hundreds of xp just training in the themple before even starting her first gaming session. Jedis are like butterflies xD

I still think that in a Clone Wars/Old Republic setting starting at knight-level and giving a free FR 2 if the PC can't get to it with his own xp is acceptable as it represnet well the training levels of the old Order.

However i don't think that such a setting should even be attempted at normal starting level as it will never represent accurately the Force Users.

However I'm starting to think that this way of representing characters is wrong: either the smuggler/bounty hunter/Commando/Diplomat have to go through their teething/training period where they suck mightily or having the Jedi do that is unfair. Maybe they should make the knight-level starting mandatory instead of optional, especially in mixed groups, or the force users will be unjustly gimped compared to their teammates.

You just have more opportunities to activate your powers (and if you commit a die to Sense you're back to the 40% activation probability given by a single force die) which is the reason for playing a Jedi.

To me, committing a die to Sense is far closer to the essence of a "Jedi" than moving things with your mind or or seeing visions. You could build a very effective character using only Sense and Enhance while you work your way towards FR2. I think players willing to take that road will find it more satisfying in the end.

Also, you can always spend Strain, and gain Conflict, to get your pips...so that 40% number isn't fixed.

I'll agree though that if a player wants to play a Temple trained Jedi, knight level play barely pulls a character out of the youngling stage.

You're right i have been looking at the issue from the wrong side.

There are no starting Jedis, I guess a Jedi is better considered as the equivalent of a Prestige Class in D&D. So you have to pass through the stages where you either are good at the Force and suck at combat or the other way round before you get good at both and can be a Jedi. The movies/cartoons have really spoiled us cause we see Ahsoka and think it should be doable at chargen/Knight level when she has spent hundreds of xp just training in the themple before even starting her first gaming session. Jedis are like butterflies xD

I still think that in a Clone Wars/Old Republic setting starting at knight-level and giving a free FR 2 if the PC can't get to it with his own xp is acceptable as it represnet well the training levels of the old Order.

However i don't think that such a setting should even be attempted at normal starting level as it will never represent accurately the Force Users.

However I'm starting to think that this way of representing characters is wrong: either the smuggler/bounty hunter/Commando/Diplomat have to go through their teething/training period where they suck mightily or having the Jedi do that is unfair. Maybe they should make the knight-level starting mandatory instead of optional, especially in mixed groups, or the force users will be unjustly gimped compared to their teammates.

It seems you augmented your original post, but I wanted to say I agreed with it wholeheartedly. There is a real demand for players and GMs who wish to have characters that can accurately represent Jedi that we've seen in the prequels and Clone War series, and even now with the Star Wars Rebels show. The Knight Level play is a good start, but it's still not really there. Hence why I was suggesting an alternative or additional Universal Specialization tree to go along with it that gives you quick access to FR 2 much like Emergent, and a bunch of other talents that simulate a Jedi who has had years of training already.

I think the whole argument of there is a trade off between saber use and force power use to be silly as well. Jedi are capable of using both effectively, and that should be represented. Balance should still be maintained of course, so I don't think the idea of giving players a free FR is wise, unless there is some sort of story need for it like representing a character being strong in the force, nor do I think buying it at cost at creation for 25xp also a good thing. I think having to get it traditionally is good, but perhaps a quick way to get to it like Emergent would be the most ideal.

You just have more opportunities to activate your powers (and if you commit a die to Sense you're back to the 40% activation probability given by a single force die) which is the reason for playing a Jedi.

To me, committing a die to Sense is far closer to the essence of a "Jedi" than moving things with your mind or or seeing visions. You could build a very effective character using only Sense and Enhance while you work your way towards FR2. I think players willing to take that road will find it more satisfying in the end.

Also, you can always spend Strain, and gain Conflict, to get your pips...so that 40% number isn't fixed.

I'll agree though that if a player wants to play a Temple trained Jedi, knight level play barely pulls a character out of the youngling stage.

Don't you also have to spend a Destiny Point to convert balck pips into white? i'd say that is one of the reasons people wouldn't routinely do that, hence the probability of not activating the Force Power shouldn't change much.

Mhm...Sense plus Enhance is and interesting point, a much more understated way to be a Jedi than the stereotypical, and one that combines well with a primary lightsaber specced character. I'll keep that in mind.

It seems you augmented your original post, but I wanted to say I agreed with it wholeheartedly.

Thank you, I have thought about it and realized that the Force Powers are more powerful than i imagined and that could affect a starting level game badly., that's why i have resorted to thinking of Jedi Knights as akin to a prestige class in D&D.

I still think that Jedi should be decent at both Force using and saber combat from the start but i can't see a way to make it balanced in a single spec, maybe the Niman Disciple way of giving a FR at the very end of the tree is a good way.

I see a Jedi conceptually similar to a Marshall, but the Force powers range of applications could be game breaking.

Maybe erasing the stating level and having everyone start at knight level by default would be a good way to balance things for everybody, and give meaning to the character background, which, for me isn't just fluff.

I think having to get it traditionally is good, but perhaps a quick way to get to it like Emergent would be the most ideal.

That could be a good idea, i don't see why some classes get it far cheaper than others, even in the same career: Protector gets it at 75xp, Peacekeeper at 120 which is nuts. Every spec getting it at around 70-75 xp could be a good compromise to get your jedi at decent power level in a reasonable time.

My players haven't asked for a Force Rating 2, to be honest I have only managed to get my players to participate in one Edge of the Empire session and while we all enjoyed it, I may need to find new players as our schedules don't ever seem to align. I think my problem is I need to play the game more. I am coming to this system from Saga Edition which was my only other game experience really and it is very different from that. Both are good it just seems to take longer for characters to grow which is good for longer games but my games are usually short due to scheduling conflicts. Anyway thanks for your suggestions.

For shorter games either start at knight level (+150 xp) or more; or give out more xp per session like 35 - 50 xp every session should allow for a quicker character growth.