If any ship gets its points back on a cannon investment, it's the Defender. Turning around is so trivial and combined with its toughness you'll be getting a lot of shots out of that cannon.

4 dice at range 3 where the defender doesn't get an extra defend die is DRAMATICALLY better than 3 attack dice. Well worth the 7 points in my opinion.

Slap an HLC on Vessery and he becomes an unholy engine of destruction.

My problem then becomes determining where to pull the 7 pts from. So far, my list is undefeated out of 7 or so games. I'm not sure what I would take off to get that HLC. Those 7 pts are really tough to find room for. That's the point of the OP, as well. I'm stating that it's OK to not use HLC on Col. V.

I'm not saying that HLC are bad, but they aren't mandatory.

i run defenders a lot every list i have played since wave 4 has had at least 1 in it and i can say that they do not need the HLC thow its nice it is very expensive. On Vess i tend to use a cluster missile and outmaneuver. On Rex i use a variety of things as he has become my ship i add if i don't know what else to use here and i have ran him bare to fully loaded and he has always at least made points back. On the no names i will say i always at least try to give them an ion cannon (or HLC) to help give them a some extra punch or utility.

For swarm support, I think Proton Rockets makes more sense, as the Swarm tends to clog up an area and attempt to cause close range combat. Is it better than Phantom + 5 Ties though? Probably not.

Doesn't this reasoning make HLCs better, not Proton Rockets? With the HLC you can keep a ship back, so it's not clogging up space for a mini-swarm. You can kind of rake the opponent over the coals by forcing them to go through a close range TIE swarm before they have good shots on your HLC defender.

I. One way that I see it is from a point of view of % cost:

Rexler starts at 37 points and you will have on him Lone Wolf or Predator in most cases, so we are looking at ~39 points. A heavy laser canon is 7 points, so that is 7/39 or 18% increase in the ship cost. In comparison, Soontir Fel with Push The Limit is 30 points, while the optional shield upgrade and target lock is another 6. So Fel in this case will increase in cost by 20%.

In the above comparison, neither Fel nor Rexler need the upgrades, but it makes the ships more flexible and fun to play with.

II. A lot of people are throwing the term "successful" very loosely in this thread. I haven't seen or heard of a single competitive list that has won a major event with a Tie Defender in it, with or without a heavy laser cannon. This tells me that we need to do a lot more experimentation in order to get an upgrade/synergy combination that works (be it wingman, lone wolf, fleet officer, etc.) and then see how that integrates with an HLC.

III. I have played about 30 games without any HLCs and the ship just doesn't do anything that an upgraded interceptor can't. The HLC gives Brath at least, something unique and interesting to do.

If any ship gets its points back on a cannon investment, it's the Defender. Turning around is so trivial and combined with its toughness you'll be getting a lot of shots out of that cannon.

4 dice at range 3 where the defender doesn't get an extra defend die is DRAMATICALLY better than 3 attack dice. Well worth the 7 points in my opinion.

Slap an HLC on Vessery and he becomes an unholy engine of destruction.

My problem then becomes determining where to pull the 7 pts from. So far, my list is undefeated out of 7 or so games. I'm not sure what I would take off to get that HLC. Those 7 pts are really tough to find room for. That's the point of the OP, as well. I'm stating that it's OK to not use HLC on Col. V.

I'm not saying that HLC are bad, but they aren't mandatory.

That's pretty much where I am. I pop Rexlar with HLC into my list at 44 points. I start thinking about how to be make sure that I get the most out of those 44 points and throw Predator onto him as well. Now I've got a 47 point ship. I can make that fit by downgrading my TIEs to APs but now I've got a ship that's creeping up on the cost of a Falcon that's been watching what it eats and maybe hitting the gym a bit.

The question that I start asking myself is "Does Rexlar with PTL and HLC stand a chance against a Falcon solo?". I'm not talking about showed-up-at-Hometown-Buffet-for-lunch-but-left-after-dinner Han but a Falcon with a couple of upgrades on it. The Falcon will probably cost a few points more and I'm not going to expect to beat it every time but since it represents a similar sized point investment, I'd expect Rexlar to bring a similar amount of value to my list. I've got a feeling that if Rexlar can keep it at range 3 most of the time he's got a decent shot at it, especially once the nasty crits start piling up.

So, I'm comfortable that Rexlar will be able to hit hard enough to justify the points. Now I'm looking at Rexlar's staying power. If he's the target of choice, will he be able to last long enough to do the damage that I'm paying for? If he can't live long enough for my squad to remove at least half of my opponent's points from the board before blowing up, I'm in for an uphill battle. This is the part that I'm not sure of and what makes me nervous about flying an expensive Defender.

The question that I start asking myself is "Does Rexlar with PTL and HLC stand a chance against a Falcon solo?".

Answer: Yes

I just played last Sunday:

1. Han+C3PO vs. Lone Wolf HLC Brath + Engine,

2. Outrider w/HLC but without title vs. Lone Wolf Brath w/HLC + Shield Upgrade

3. Han + Engine vs Lone Wolf Brath, HLC + Shield

Game 1: Rexler Brath got demolished! Han managed to get 3 total evades several turns but the real problem was that I was flying the defender like an interceptor, constantly trying to point at the falcon and giving it easy range 1 shots.

Game 2: No problem for the lone wolf defender. With a fixed cannon, the outrider never had the firepower to do any damage while I flew away from it and then turned out to get excellent R3 shots.

Game 3: This time I knew how to fly against the falcon! Turn 2 I didn't like any of the approaches for the defender so Hard 3 away from the battle. This gave Han an R3 shot but with focus, lone wolf and +1 green die who cares? Turn 3 I K-Turned with focus and the falcon had don way of avoiding the R3 shots! Turn 4 I gunned the engines, getting a target lock and making the falcon bump into me. This was followed up by another K turn and then another approach... basically with lone wolf, just keep the enemy at R3-R2 and you are golden! The Defender can definitely hold its own against the 360 ships one on one! (if it can against whisper... I don't know, probably not)

II. A lot of people are throwing the term "successful" very loosely in this thread. I haven't seen or heard of a single competitive list that has won a major event with a Tie Defender in it, with or without a heavy laser cannon. This tells me that we need to do a lot more experimentation in order to get an upgrade/synergy combination that works (be it wingman, lone wolf, fleet officer, etc.) and then see how that integrates with an HLC.

III. I have played about 30 games without any HLCs and the ship just doesn't do anything that an upgraded interceptor can't. The HLC gives Brath at least, something unique and interesting to do.

II: Yeah, but have there been any major tournaments since Gencon? There have been a couple of Nationals, but not a lot. I'm sure we will start seeing some. Also, I think people define success with who they play. Not everyone does play at big tournaments and something that works for them at their local level is what they consider successful. I happen to believe that the international meta isn't always right. It's sometimes the tail wagging the dog.

III: An upgraded Interceptor and Defender can be comparable. Is that a bad thing, though? I think there are differences. One has better mobility and the other is more of a tank with a cool K-turn. I also like Col. V and his special ability more than the Int pilots. I've never said that Defender is better than a souped up Interceptor, but I have to admit that I've got a bit of a thing against Interceptors and will avoid them when I can. It's just an odd hangup.

@WWHSD: I think it's possible to build a list without HLC on the Defender. I suggest you try it and see what you think, though.

For swarm support, I think Proton Rockets makes more sense, as the Swarm tends to clog up an area and attempt to cause close range combat. Is it better than Phantom + 5 Ties though? Probably not.

Doesn't this reasoning make HLCs better, not Proton Rockets? With the HLC you can keep a ship back, so it's not clogging up space for a mini-swarm. You can kind of rake the opponent over the coals by forcing them to go through a close range TIE swarm before they have good shots on your HLC defender.

However, if you take 1 or 2 rounds to disengage whilst the rest of your force is incapable of disengaging or are clustering up for action denial (like swarms tend to do), then your team might get eaten up while the Defender tactically disengages.

When pairing the HLC Defender with a fast ship or 2, in smaller squads, you can more easily "tactically disengage", as it is likely your other ships wont be focus fired on due to arc dodging capabilities. Also, you can more easily fit in the named Defenders, with higher PS, allowing for PS kills when necessary.

That's just my observation with the HLC Defender. I REALLY like the HLC on the ship with named pilots, in smaller squads, but am not fond of the generic HLC Defender with swarm squads, for the above reasons. Especially because the minimum 37 pt cost means no Howl + 4 Tie fighter support. You can still run 5 x AP, which ive flown a few times and isn't a bad squad (3 pts for hull on the Defender), but loses some consistency.

Imo, the Proton Rockets make more sense in a swarm, with all that battlefield clogging and range 1 possibilities.

And it also isn't a horrid tradeoff when those 4 pts could buy you a better squad.

The question that I start asking myself is "Does Rexlar with PTL and HLC stand a chance against a Falcon solo?".

Answer: Yes

I just played last Sunday:

1. Han+C3PO vs. Lone Wolf HLC Brath + Engine,

2. Outrider w/HLC but without title vs. Lone Wolf Brath w/HLC + Shield Upgrade

3. Han + Engine vs Lone Wolf Brath, HLC + Shield

Game 1: Rexler Brath got demolished! Han managed to get 3 total evades several turns but the real problem was that I was flying the defender like an interceptor, constantly trying to point at the falcon and giving it easy range 1 shots.

Game 2: No problem for the lone wolf defender. With a fixed cannon, the outrider never had the firepower to do any damage while I flew away from it and then turned out to get excellent R3 shots.

Game 3: This time I knew how to fly against the falcon! Turn 2 I didn't like any of the approaches for the defender so Hard 3 away from the battle. This gave Han an R3 shot but with focus, lone wolf and +1 green die who cares? Turn 3 I K-Turned with focus and the falcon had don way of avoiding the R3 shots! Turn 4 I gunned the engines, getting a target lock and making the falcon bump into me. This was followed up by another K turn and then another approach... basically with lone wolf, just keep the enemy at R3-R2 and you are golden! The Defender can definitely hold its own against the 360 ships one on one! (if it can against whisper... I don't know, probably not)

Whisper would be something I'd counter with a mini swarm escort fly them as close as possible to block and hope you can make her predictable enough you can line a shot up with Brath.

Glad you figured out the defender for that third game.

I was thinking more like, a good way to get use from an HLC Defender is to engage for a round or 2, then disengage with a 5 Fwd or 3 turn. This allows easy access to range 3. Since you'll likely be wounded, disengaging might be a better choice than the predictable 4 K Turn, which could easily put you in range 1. You can instead 5 fwd, THEN 4 K turn.

I think you nailed it with this description! My biggest problem with the Tie Defenders has always been the idea that I have to shoot at the enemy every single turn. No! You don't have to shoot every turn, it is okay to disengage, move to the side, re-position, come up with a new plan, prepare to ambush... etc. Trying to get a shot of every single turn gets my Tie Defenders killed all the time!

I was thinking more like, a good way to get use from an HLC Defender is to engage for a round or 2, then disengage with a 5 Fwd or 3 turn. This allows easy access to range 3. Since you'll likely be wounded, disengaging might be a better choice than the predictable 4 K Turn, which could easily put you in range 1. You can instead 5 fwd, THEN 4 K turn.

I think you nailed it with this description! My biggest problem with the Tie Defenders has always been the idea that I have to shoot at the enemy every single turn. No! You don't have to shoot every turn, it is okay to disengage, move to the side, re-position, come up with a new plan, prepare to ambush... etc. Trying to get a shot of every single turn gets my Tie Defenders killed all the time!

They arnt knife fighters like the interceptor it's true you want to use range where they excel.

HLC on a defender does look cool

100 Points

My take is the HLC is very good on the Defender but not needed. It really depends on what else you have in your list and 7 points is not trivial.

I won a tourney a fews weeks back with a trciked out Soontir, Brath w/Predator and 2 Academy TIEs.

Now I could have put HLC on Brath and he would have been even more of a monster. But doing so would have required me to remove a TIE and I decided that I would have rather have the additional TIE. I think it could have worked especially if I spent the remaining 5 points on SU/HU and/or more skillfull TF. But, I figured Brath was already 40 and a big enough target and I wanted to mitigate that somewhat. I actually did a lot of, "early TFs close to range 1 while Brath hangs at range 2 moves" to mess up target priorities. I am not sure I could pull that with only 1 TIE or with an HLC on Brath. Hes tough but hes not quite Firespray tough.

A buddy of mine did a Jonus brother list that did really well (Jonus & 2 HLC Defenders). That was a great place for the HLC and worked really well.

So in summary it seems to me that:

1. If not supported, do not take Heave Laser Cannon on a Tie Defender.
2. If not going to be flying at range 2 or 3, do not take HLC on a T/D.
3. If supporting and flying range 2-3 take HLC with:

• Captain Jonus can support up to two HLCs at 100 points.
• Predator or Lone Wolf on Rexler Brath
• Fleet Officer within range 2
• Vessery with another ship target locking his target.
• Push the limit on Rexler with wingman on another ship to clean the stress.
• Colonel Jendon for target locks.
• Ship with squad leader (no one plays this, not very point efficient)

The big problem with defenders is that you're paying an extraordinary tax to get that +1 attack.\

Compare

Whisper+ACD+VI 37

with

Rexler Brath 37

It's clear that Whisper wins on every criteria due to the ability to shoot first and move second.

Kitted out

Whisper+ACD+VI+FCS+Gunner 44

Rexler Brath HLC+Lone Wolf 46

Whisper still comes out on top with the lethality of FCS+Gunner every round.

At this point in the meta there's no point taking Rexler over Whisper.

Similarly

Echo+VI+ACD 35

Vessery 35

Echo with this loadout can kill any number of ships <PS 8 without too much trouble.

Vessery needs to be supported by something with a TL to be of any use. The choice is pretty clear;

Kitted out

Echo+VI+ACD+Rebel Captive+FCS 39

Vessery+HLC+VI 43

The sheer imbalance becomes even clearer. There's no reason at all to take Vessery over Echo.

Defenders are fun but too overcosted to be a serious choice in a tournament.

I think FFG should have made them base attack 4, or give them a cheaper HLC like the ACD (Defender Laser Cannon, cost 3)

Except that you get a different thing with the Defender. The Phantom is hard to pin down and has lots of evade, but only has 2 hull and 2 shield. The Defender isn't about pinning down, but has all 3's. So, it's a different beast interly.

I think the Phantom is easier to fly in the begining, especially when their aren't a lot of tactics or experience in countering them. As that happens, and Phantoms don't become the easy win that they are, you will see people take more Defenders. You will see Defenders winning in tournaments. It's just not the meta changing ship that the Phantom is. That doesn't mean it's a bad ship.

I have to disagree with you Darth.

1. I won a tourney with Rexler in a list with no Phantoms in the list. (anecdotal and not great evidence, but still)

2. TIE-Ds are not overcosted

A theoretcial PS 1 X-wing is 20 points.

A TIE D has 9 more effective hit points than an X-Wing. That brings it to 29. The extra point is for the better than average Shield/Hull ratio and an average dial.

Phantoms are good for their points. Defenders are good for thier points. Which one is better than the other is dependant on what else is in your list and how you plan to fly them. I will agree that on its own, a 40 pt Defender versus a 40pt Phantom the advanatge is clearly on the Phantom, but I could build a 34 pt Y-Wing that could crush both one on one (Horton, ICT, R2-D6, FT and VI). I am not advocating that this 34 point Y-Wing should be used in a list, I am just pointing out that its not always a good idea to compare one ship versus another without taking a whole list into account.

I agree with what people are saying, but this topic is whether a Tie Defender should have a heavy laser cannon, not weather a Tie Defender should be fielded in a tournament in the first place? I don't agree with the T/D point value, dial, lack of sensor slot, lack of boost, lack of evade action... but this is the ship that we have been given and we might as well try and find how to use it best. People for one reason or another (aesthetics, sentimental value, fluff, ...) still want to fly with the ship.

I am really glad to see that people have are wining tournaments with a defender! In our local meta I have seen the ship brought to a few events but never do weLl

That's it, next event im in, im bringing a Defender.

With the generics, I'd probably always take an HLC. With the named pilots, I'd probably never use one. It just makes them too expensive for what they bring to the table. Rexlar doesn't need more than Predator, and Vessary is probably better off with Cluster Missiles, or just naked.

Except that you get a different thing with the Defender. The Phantom is hard to pin down and has lots of evade, but only has 2 hull and 2 shield. The Defender isn't about pinning down, but has all 3's. So, it's a different beast interly.

I think the Phantom is easier to fly in the begining, especially when their aren't a lot of tactics or experience in countering them. As that happens, and Phantoms don't become the easy win that they are, you will see people take more Defenders. You will see Defenders winning in tournaments. It's just not the meta changing ship that the Phantom is. That doesn't mean it's a bad ship.

Except that the Phantom has the Evade token, and if it evades for two turns in a row (which it can because of Gunner/FCS) it already has had equal effective HP to a Defender, and if it uses its evade for more than two turns it essentially has more effective HP than a TIE/D. Defenders can't FCS aside from Vessery either, and it's hard to setup a TL+Focus attack on the 2nd turn (heck, even the first with Gunner) without sacrificing survivability.

Also, not getting shot and having effective 4 dice to thing that aren't higher than PS9 is better than having a flat 3 evade dice. It's not a bad ship, it's just not as efficient for equivalent points in Phantoms.

I have to disagree with you Darth.

1. I won a tourney with Rexler in a list with no Phantoms in the list. (anecdotal and not great evidence, but still)

2. TIE-Ds are not overcosted

A theoretcial PS 1 X-wing is 20 points.

A TIE D has 9 more effective hit points than an X-Wing. That brings it to 29. The extra point is for the better than average Shield/Hull ratio and an average dial.

Phantoms are good for their points. Defenders are good for thier points. Which one is better than the other is dependant on what else is in your list and how you plan to fly them. I will agree that on its own, a 40 pt Defender versus a 40pt Phantom the advanatge is clearly on the Phantom, but I could build a 34 pt Y-Wing that could crush both one on one (Horton, ICT, R2-D6, FT and VI). I am not advocating that this 34 point Y-Wing should be used in a list, I am just pointing out that its not always a good idea to compare one ship versus another without taking a whole list into account.

Winning a tourney isn't indicative of points efficiency, mathematics is. TIE/Ds are overcosted in comparison to their direct competitior, Phantoms. If you agree with what I'm saying, then what is the point of your post? Also, Horton won't be able to crush either Echo or Whisper since they can just stay at R3 and plink him to death easily.

The point is, Defenders need to take a 7 point HLC upgrade to get within range of a Phantom's firepower. It's what they need to even compete, which makes them overcosted.

Sadly, I have to agree with the pessimistic side here. The only reason I'd truly field a Defender is to use the cannon slot with a small base ship. A naked defender (even a named one) doesn't justify its cost. IMO, FFG vastly overrated the White 4K, and made the ship pay too much for it (dial, actions, cost).

Other pilots in the game also have the ability to take actions before or after a K-turn, or directly ignore/shed the stress from it and they don't pay such high prices for that ability.