I'm looking to try to get my Defender on the table but I'm having trouble making it fit into the type of list I'd want to play. I want a four or five ship list (that only has one or two TIEs, not a miniswarm) that is fast and manueverable.

It seems to me that if I'm not strapping an HLC to the Defender I might as well be bringing a different ship but that HLC makes it such an expensive ship. Both of the elites are pretty expensive and seem to need additional points spent elsewhere in the squad to get the most out of their abilities which makes the ship expensive enough that it is now the centerpiece of my list.

Is it worth flying a Defender without an HLC if it's suppossed the heavy hitter in a list? I don't really want to pair it with a Phantom or Shuttle but those seem to be the most common lists that I see using Defenders ( other than Jonus and 2 HLC Defenders ).

I usually fly something like this:

Krassis + HLC

Carnor Jax + PTL

Backstabber

Academy Pilot

I'm finding that I have a lot of issues keeping Krassis in a good posistion without clipping asteroids or other ships. I was hoping that the Defender would help me keep the HLC firing more often but I wondering if I might not be better off tossing in a Defender with no cannon and using the excess points to buff my other ships up a bit.

Brath was made for the HLC. And at only one point more than Krassis, why wouldn't you use him? Yeah he's expensive, but he's a lot of fun to fly. Krassis has the advantage of flying a tank, but that white K - turn is not to be underestimated when you want to bring the HLC to bear. And with Brath's ability to flip hits, he's devastatingly consistent.

Why not try this?

Rexler Brath, HLC (44)

Carnor Jax, PTL (29)

Night beast (15)

Academy Pilot (12)

100 points total

Ion canons are always fun.

Not using the cannon slot on a named defender is a waste rexler can hunt even the biggest game because of his ability and vessery with the right support can lay down terrifyingly accurate fire.

Jonas lists as well as the simple triple D list show how effective low ps defenders can be, plenty of imp ships can throw out three attack but few offer the durability to survive a bad dodge roll and the movement that a small ship offers.

Disagree. Its completely unnecessary. Good, but not required.

Actually. I found out that functionally, there is another.... piece of ordnance that serves a use beter and makes Defenders win more games.

Its not Ion Cannon. I'm not fond of that upgrade on Defenders, seems like a good waste of their 30pt 3 dice.

Brath was made for the HLC. And at only one point more than Krassis, why wouldn't you use him? Yeah he's expensive, but he's a lot of fun to fly. Krassis has the advantage of flying a tank, but that white K - turn is not to be underestimated when you want to bring the HLC to bear. And with Brath's ability to flip hits, he's devastatingly consistent.

Why not try this?

Rexler Brath, HLC (44)

Carnor Jax, PTL (29)

Night beast (15)

Academy Pilot (12)

100 points total

So you find that you end up with a focus token to spend on Rexlar's ability often enough to make good use of it? Is it just mostly a case of flying him around and using focus tokens like normal to modify attacks and just taking advantage of his ability on rounds that you don't need the token?

Brath was made for the HLC. And at only one point more than Krassis, why wouldn't you use him? Yeah he's expensive, but he's a lot of fun to fly. Krassis has the advantage of flying a tank, but that white K - turn is not to be underestimated when you want to bring the HLC to bear. And with Brath's ability to flip hits, he's devastatingly consistent.

Why not try this?

Rexler Brath, HLC (44)

Carnor Jax, PTL (29)

Night beast (15)

Academy Pilot (12)

100 points total

So you find that you end up with a focus token to spend on Rexlar's ability often enough to make good use of it? Is it just mostly a case of flying him around and using focus tokens like normal to modify attacks and just taking advantage of his ability on rounds that you don't need the token?

I do actually. I almost always take focus as an action anyways. Although, personally, I can't say I'd run Rex in a 4 ship list, I'd likely run him in a 3 ship list with a little more on him like PTL for instance. A focus and Target Lock combo is awesome, or focus and barrel roll. Carnor is fine as is and I might swap out Nightbeast for one of the other named TIES, or drop both Nightbeast and the Academy for another Squint..

I liked Brath with Predator...I wanted to try the HLC but just made it too expensive and limited my other options. Roll the dice, reroll 1, focus token for extra hits if applicable or else for defense.

Try this out. Each one of these ships is a threat, but Rex is a huge target at 50 points..

http://xwing-builder.co.uk/view/127324/falcon-hunters

Or this one - with a couple of high priority targets, your opponent will have to really pick and choose who his biggest threat is.

Rex - Push the Limit, Heavy Laser Cannon

Echo - Veteran Instincts, Advanced Cloaking Device

Nightbeast - Stealth Device

100 points

Two - dice dealing ships at PS 8

Disagree. Its completely unnecessary. Good, but not required.

Actually. I found out that functionally, there is another.... piece of ordnance that serves a use beter and makes Defenders win more games.

Its not Ion Cannon. I'm not fond of that upgrade on Defenders, seems like a good waste of their 30pt 3 dice.

Proton Rockets? If that's it, do you really find that one more red die on a single attack makes enough of a difference for 3 points?

Try two named Defenders with HLCs!

I ran this list a couple of nights ago with 150 pts. It was devastating!

Soontir Fel (35)

TIE Interceptor (27), Royal Guard TIE (0), Push the Limit (3), Hull Upgrade (3), Targeting Computer (2)

Colonel Vessery (43)

TIE Defender (35), Heavy Laser Cannon (7), Veteran Instincts (1)

Rexler Brath (45)

TIE Defender (37), Heavy Laser Cannon (7), Veteran Instincts (1)

Turr Phennir (26)

TIE Interceptor (25), Veteran Instincts (1)

Disagree. Its completely unnecessary. Good, but not required.

Actually. I found out that functionally, there is another.... piece of ordnance that serves a use beter and makes Defenders win more games.

Its not Ion Cannon. I'm not fond of that upgrade on Defenders, seems like a good waste of their 30pt 3 dice.

Proton Rockets? If that's it, do you really find that one more red die on a single attack makes enough of a difference for 3 points?

Keep thinking, you're on the right track. Its a matter of timing.

Think about roles. Not stats.

Disagree. Its completely unnecessary. Good, but not required.

Actually. I found out that functionally, there is another.... piece of ordnance that serves a use beter and makes Defenders win more games.

Its not Ion Cannon. I'm not fond of that upgrade on Defenders, seems like a good waste of their 30pt 3 dice.

Proton Rockets? If that's it, do you really find that one more red die on a single attack makes enough of a difference for 3 points?

I can see it complementing HLC but not being better. HLC is range 2-3 and proton rockets is range 1. So it is almost like pairing Proton Torpedoes with advanced proton torpedoes so you always have a munitions shot regardless of range.

I think Rexlar with Predator is often sufficient, I've said it before I don't like PTL on Defenders when Predator is available

I also find that 3 attack is enough because, the more points you spend on a ship like a Defender the higher priority it is to take it out

Keep thinking, you're on the right track. Its a matter of timing.

Think about roles. Not stats.

Is it Cluster Missiles?

Keep thinking, you're on the right track. Its a matter of timing.

Think about roles. Not stats.

Is it Cluster Missiles?

I've personally loved Cluster's on Vessery. Watch as I get TL re-rolls for each attack, and take a focus to boot. I still haven't flown Brath in fact.

I could almost also imagine he's suggesting Ion pulse missles. Ion them, then K turn behind them as you know where they will end up. Free shots on their rear end? Maybe?

Ion cannon is BEAST on a Defender. In a one-off it can easily push the advantage you hold with your white K-turn into the extreme. So far, my Ion Delta has done me more good than my HLC Delta. Naturally, this might seem different if I was regularly fighting Falcons, but as is, it's my first choice in my 3-Delta list.

Keep thinking, you're on the right track. Its a matter of timing.

Think about roles. Not stats.

Is it Cluster Missiles?

I've personally loved Cluster's on Vessery. Watch as I get TL re-rolls for each attack, and take a focus to boot. I still haven't flown Brath in fact.

I could almost also imagine he's suggesting Ion pulse missles. Ion them, then K turn behind them as you know where they will end up. Free shots on their rear end? Maybe?

Sorry. I'm making communication errors: I do mean that Proton Rockets are the answer. The reason is this: Why would you need a small upgrade in firepower?

First, is it that small? for 3 points you get.. one more measly die. However, when you consider the Falcon cancels more based on numerous rounds or numerous attacks, you see that adding that die is nearly a guaranteed extra damage.

When is basically the only time you might need more firepower, when you're considering a list with powerful defenders: versus the Falcon.

Phantoms need to be outmaneuvered. Even HLC vs Phantom isn't going to cut it if he consistently can outmaneuver you.

So, in your list you need something that can outmaneuver or keep up with Phantoms. at minimum PS 9. Then you need something that can bust the pancake open.

By reducing cost of "busting the pancake open" with a 3 cost option instead of a 7 cost option, you gain 4 more points that can go into helping stuff the rest of the requirements of a meta-possible list into 100 points.

--

Also, Cluster on Vessery is really really really good for Falcons too. And Bs, and shuttles, and Decimators.

IPM on Blount is my choice for a secondary soft counter to Phantoms in a Rebel List.

or Airen with VI next to a maneuverable ship, preferably strong and high PS too.

Roark is another good option of you have heavy hitters. Roark ICT + 3 B FCS 2 Flechette

FCS is currently the hot new tech. It increases your damage output per turn against Falcon by something like 1.5 through-damages.

See Roark 3 B FCS list and Nationals list.

I think Rexlar with Predator is often sufficient, I've said it before I don't like PTL on Defenders when Predator is available

I also find that 3 attack is enough because, the more points you spend on a ship like a Defender the higher priority it is to take it out

It's not about the forth die as much as its denying range three agility bonus, flown correctly your rolling four greens and your target x-wing is rolling two, or a b-wing is rolling one, the HLC used from range three can cripple a ship before they can reliably put damage on you.

And rexler is about to get a major buff with wave five thanks to fleet officer, take a mercenary firespray as an escort and you'll always have that focus to flip damage cards.

Is it worth flying a Defender without an HLC if it's suppossed the heavy hitter in a list?

I think so. I like my Defender, but I just can't drop the points for an HLC on one. I just can't fit it into a list. I've been quite happy with my Defender otherwise. Think about it this way: Would you be happy with an Imperial ship that had 3's on everything (especially attack) and didn't have a cannon slot? It's a tank and it's very manueverable. It can do some damage and sustain some firepower. What's not to like about it? I think most people just love the HLC and if there is an option to put one on, they want to. You don't have to fall for that trap, though.

It's true that I fly mine with a Shuttle, but that's b/c I go with Col. Vessery. I only give him VI and fly him as is. I usually focus and get a free TL from the Shuttle. Three dice with a focus and TL does enough damage to me. I'll fire at a Phantom with him and the Shuttle and usually get something through, especially if I have Gunner and FCS on the Shuttle.

How is four attack at all ranges a trap? How is denying the other guy an extra green die at range three a trap?

You get three or four hits at range three there won't be much of the ship left to finish off next turn.

You don't use them that's fine but don't try and make it sound like those of us who do are idiots.

If you are infering that I'm calling people who use it idiots, then that's on you. I'm not. I said it's a trap because it's easy to want to dump a bunch of expensive toys on it, when you don't have to. Those toys can work, but they aren't necessary. I see too often that if there is a chance to put an HLC on a ship, then you have to. I think HLC's are great, but sometimes they are too expensive.

I take, and recommend taking VI or Adrenaline Rush on Vessery and VI (if you are scared of Ghosts) or Predator on Brath and call it a day.

They don't need anything else really.

My 2 Laser Bolts

If any ship gets its points back on a cannon investment, it's the Defender. Turning around is so trivial and combined with its toughness you'll be getting a lot of shots out of that cannon.

4 dice at range 3 where the defender doesn't get an extra defend die is DRAMATICALLY better than 3 attack dice. Well worth the 7 points in my opinion.

Slap an HLC on Vessery and he becomes an unholy engine of destruction.

If you use only Proton Rockets, however, you get to build this squad...

Howlrunner

Academy Pilot x 4

Delta Squadron Pilot + Proton Rockets

99pts

HLC means your support options are less, which makes sense for the power you get with HLC.

Or you could do:

2 x Defender + Proton Rockets

Soontir Fel + PTL + TC/SD/Hull

99/100pts

For swarm support, I think Proton Rockets makes more sense, as the Swarm tends to clog up an area and attempt to cause close range combat. Is it better than Phantom + 5 Ties though? Probably not.

Im actually thinking, if you want to run Delta + Proton Rockets, it might just be better to fly Echo + ACD for 34 pts instead of 33. Maybe the HLC niche makes more sense.

Proton Rockets does create a mind game, though, (5 dice is scary, especially when you pre load a TL) where as HLC makes your opponent rush range 1 to even the odds.