The only drawback from previously marketing EotE and AoR as "standalone" is they now need to re-market all three books as the "complete trilogy", and make it clear that cross-pollination of careers and specs are encouraged.

I agree, and i think that they should add a page which suggest doing that and gives some examples of possible careers that mixes the classes and the specs, a bit like they did in Far Horizon (that was one of the best parts of the book: explicit path to build different careers).

I also think that the "force sensitive variations" of the Edge/Age careers are useful beyond the stand alone part: they add flavor and allow you to fully implement certain character concepts better than before (IMO the Gand Findsman should be built as Seeker:hunter/fringer rather than the more convoluted Explorer:scout/fringer/Force Sensitve)

They kind of already do this. There is a few pages on combining Age and Edge. and i suspect the same will be true for F&D

Ah I see. Creating a book that has Force use as it's primary focus instead of a secondary one like the previous two books means that it is Dark focused. Makes perfect sense.

I love when people completely disengaged their brain just because there is a keyboard in front of them. See, I don't agree that the Force is secondary in EoE or AoR. In those games, the Force is an additional aspect that can be explored, just like how a more cerebral character can explore combat options. I don't agree wih the popular notion that the Force as being crudely nailed onto the side of a character, just because I couldn't make my special snowflake at the start of the game, nor that F&D is actual the "complete" or "real" rules. Both are equally valid.

My Dark Side COMPARISON was a COMPARISON that I am seeing take place among a certain kind of player. Instead of following a more subtle and prolonged pace, some players are opting for a more direct and faster path. An ironic comparison was drawn. You're the one saying it's Dark Side focused and jumping to conclusions, not me.

Ah I see. Creating a book that has Force use as it's primary focus instead of a secondary one like the previous two books means that it is Dark focused. Makes perfect sense.

I love when people completely disengaged their brain just because there is a keyboard in front of them. See, I don't agree that the Force is secondary in EoE or AoR. In those games, the Force is an additional aspect that can be explored, just like how a more cerebral character can explore combat options. I don't agree wih the popular notion that the Force as being crudely nailed onto the side of a character, just because I couldn't make my special snowflake at the start of the game, nor that F&D is actual the "complete" or "real" rules. Both are equally valid.

My Dark Side COMPARISON was a COMPARISON that I am seeing take place among a certain kind of player. Instead of following a more subtle and prolonged pace, some players are opting for a more direct and faster path. An ironic comparison was drawn. You're the one saying it's Dark Side focused and jumping to conclusions, not me.

To be fair, if you read his other comments, they're less snarky and more on-point.

And let's be clear about this. I understand that you're comparing F&D to the dark side of the force not because the book is actually literally based on the dark side of the force but because you feel F&D allows you to quickly jump in and not have to do a lot of work to access the force. Just as the dark side of the force is the quickest way to achieve your goals within the Star Wars universe, F&D is the quickest way to jumpstart your character to make it a Force-user. It's a pretty decent analogy.

I get that. However, I disagree that it's an issue. First, you make a judgment that Force-use should be a long and difficult road to follow and characters shouldn't be able to just start out with it. I disagree with this because Jedi are a thing. You may not like PC Jedi but plenty of the rest of us do. Depending on your era, they are trained from a very young age to use the Force. They don't get a couple of levels in Scout before running down to the Jedi temple for some classes after work. It's a lifestyle and the career options should reflect that. Also, as others have pointed out, becoming a Force-user is as simple as spending 20XP for Emergent and 10XP for a force power. Right out of the gate your soldier type can move little stuff around with his mind just as well as any new padawan.

Second, you indict F&D as a failure to be a "complete" or "real" set of rules. I argue that F&D is just as real and complete as either of the prior books. Proper Jedi characters are one of the major archetypes of the Star Wars universe even if there don't happen to be that many of them during one particular time period. They are not even close to playable with the prior rules. I've been watching this game as they've released material for it seeing them flesh out archetypes like the scoundrel or the bounty hunter or the diplomat. I've felt left out. A Jedi is not just a soldier with the Force tacked on. Jedi are a way of life. They are more than just psychics with glowsticks that go to the same Vo-Tech on Coruscant that the mundane spacecraft mechanics go to. To reflect that, they created talent trees in the book that's all about Force-users that are often similar to the more mundane trees but have that unique touch of the Force. They make a statement that, by their nature, Jedi approach problems from their paradigm within the Force rather than just using the Force as an extension of their mundane training. This is part of what I love about the new F&D rules.

Third, as I have previously stated, the idea that this is an incomplete or unreal rules set is invalid because the other books exist and are fully compatible. If you don't like a Force-user-only campaign, allow the other books in. Saying that these rules are incomplete when there are other official rules for the exact same system and designed to be used together is just like saying that you want to play a droid in your GM's Jedi-only Star Wars game under Saga edition. Any failure to allow mundane characters is not a fault of the system; it is a choice by your GM.

Ultimately, if you don't feel F&D is a complete rules set, don't buy it or play it in conjunction with the other published rules nearly wholly devoted to non-Force-users. Let those of us who think the Jedi are the best part of the Star Wars universe have our fun with a similar amount of fun options and places to spend our XP as a mundane has.

My Dark Side COMPARISON was a COMPARISON that I am seeing take place among a certain kind of player. Instead of following a more subtle and prolonged pace, some players are opting for a more direct and faster path.

There is no direct and faster path. You are simply wrong about this. Why are you insisting on it when it's not true? F&D careers require you to sacrifice careers skills for FR1. It's more costly up front, and potentially far more costly in the long term, than an EotE character that takes FSE to get FR1.

Besides, who are these "certain kids of players" and why do you care what they do at their table?

My Dark Side COMPARISON was a COMPARISON that I am seeing take place among a certain kind of player. Instead of following a more subtle and prolonged pace, some players are opting for a more direct and faster path.

I don't understand why a more direct and faster path is a problem. Do you think that player who wants to be a pilot should also take more subtle and prolonged pace and go Fringer/Ace instead of straight to Ace?

I love when people completely disengaged their brain just because there is a keyboard in front of them. See, I don't agree that the Force is secondary in EoE or AoR. In those games, the Force is an additional aspect that can be explored, just like how a more cerebral character can explore combat options. I don't agree wih the popular notion that the Force as being crudely nailed onto the side of a character, just because I couldn't make my special snowflake at the start of the game, nor that F&D is actual the "complete" or "real" rules. Both are equally valid.

That's fine if you want to believe that. For many though, Force-use was a secondary factor in EotE and AoR. Something that has now been more fully realized in F&D. If you are more comfortable with the more limited options of a couple of unispecs then I suggest staying with them.

My Dark Side COMPARISON was a COMPARISON that I am seeing take place among a certain kind of player. Instead of following a more subtle and prolonged pace, some players are opting for a more direct and faster path. An ironic comparison was drawn. You're the one saying it's Dark Side focused and jumping to conclusions, not me.

Ah I see. This is more an issue with power-gaming players or individuals that will take some perceived advantage of the system.

At first blush, F&D seems to have balanced their focus on Force-use with the other entries of this game. Characters from each book can mix and match with some equality. I'm not seeing any glaring infractions to this balance as yet. And since this is still a beta, hopefully any that are there are caught and adjusted for. So even if you have players that want to take the "easy" path, I don't think they will impact the game any more than your bounty hunters or soldiers.

I have yet to be able to play test this, lots of people in my group wanting to ref things, but my immediate thought is that I would probably end up running the force users more like EoE and AoR instead of having the force careers from FaD. One of my biggest issues are the Lightsaber specializations, given the era the game is being set in I find the concept of 3-5 people all of whom somehow manage to get the Jedi Lockpick. Hell, even just 3-5 Force users without the Jedi Lockpick is bad enough in the Rebellion era.

Don't get me wrong, I do like a fair amount of what I am reading, and if I was running a game either Rise of the Empire or New Rebublic era (or even Old Republic era) I would have no problem with using this book as is.

Given the Rebellion era setting that FFG have decided on I would have possibly preferred FaD as a splatbook for the other two core books.

E

Count me as another customer who waited for a complete game before buying into the system. However, it's not because I wanted force users. I was intrigued by something I saw in the early marketing which I can't locate now. It talked about running characters through a sequence similar to the movies and having them grow beyond their initial roots/backgrounds, carrying character across all three settings.

Is there a lot of overlap between Age and Edge? Sure, but not once did I complain as I read over them. The Careers and Specs in Age felt appropriate and they even seemed to mesh as potential growht points for Edge characters. F&D however has a different feel entirely, and immediately had me questioning a lot of things. To me, the book definitely projects the feel of a different era than the original films. As a previous poster mentioned, the careers seem to be "sliced very thin". I even disagree with how some of the lightsaber forms were doled out and/or what stats they are based on. The game works fine, and the combined game will be a lot of fun, but for a group that only has one potential force user, this last book is not going to get a lot of use. They have no desire to run a group of force users, but I wouldn't say that necessarily means this doesn't function as a standalone game. But to me it certainly feels like a standalone game for a different era of Star Wars.

We just finished Onslaught at Arda 1. Our 7 player group is a mixed bag with 4 from AoR and 3 from EotE. I am the only one to buy into a Force career, after starting as an Ace Pilot. I can't wait for the final of F&D to be out so I can expand my force abilities. Who in the world wants to run a campaign with only one of these books? For me, it takes all the parts put together to be Star Wars so that's how I will run my campaign when I start. It doesn't bother me that the combat rules are in each book. Don't crab because it's not EXACTLY how you would do it, just play and have a blast!

Count me as another customer who waited for a complete game before buying into the system. However, it's not because I wanted force users. I was intrigued by something I saw in the early marketing which I can't locate now. It talked about running characters through a sequence similar to the movies and having them grow beyond their initial roots/backgrounds, carrying character across all three settings.

Is there a lot of overlap between Age and Edge? Sure, but not once did I complain as I read over them. The Careers and Specs in Age felt appropriate and they even seemed to mesh as potential growht points for Edge characters. F&D however has a different feel entirely, and immediately had me questioning a lot of things. To me, the book definitely projects the feel of a different era than the original films. As a previous poster mentioned, the careers seem to be "sliced very thin". I even disagree with how some of the lightsaber forms were doled out and/or what stats they are based on. The game works fine, and the combined game will be a lot of fun, but for a group that only has one potential force user, this last book is not going to get a lot of use. They have no desire to run a group of force users, but I wouldn't say that necessarily means this doesn't function as a standalone game. But to me it certainly feels like a standalone game for a different era of Star Wars.

Not a good idea to judge based on the beta. We do not have a lot of the fluff. Over the years we have seen lots of ways for Jedi to have survived order 66. Also many force sensitives would still be born even though they are never picked up by the Jedi. I would reserve judgement till we see how they put the final touches on the fluff.

At GenCon I participated in a Force and Destiny game ran by one of the FFG developers and the very question of how do force users fit in this setting. The developers are very much aware of your apparent issue.

I also think it's important to note that the Force and Destiny book point out in multiple locations that the PCs aren't actual Jedi. They're folks trying to learn more of the ancient Jedi and unlock their secrets.

Certainly you could you play Jedi using these rules. But it will take some finagling of the setting and usage of the "Knight-level" rules.

Not a good idea to judge based on the beta. We do not have a lot of the fluff. Over the years we have seen lots of ways for Jedi to have survived order 66. Also many force sensitives would still be born even though they are never picked up by the Jedi. I would reserve judgement till we see how they put the final touches on the fluff.

Well, bear in mind, I'm not the only one in my group to have this reaction. I am, however, the only who has read any of the novels. Two of the players have experience with the movies and KOTOR, the other two are the movies only. The two KOTOR players saw the careers and specs and immediately though "Hmmm, Old Republic stuff" while one of the other two asked which Career or Specialization Luke fit into (and that sparked some heated debate among all of them).

This is where I agree with one of the previous posters that said more variety in the Careers might have been better. They all currently feel very much like "Jedi", particularly to myself and the KOTOR players. Mixing in a few different force using traditions would have made far more sense to me, and given the game a bit more variety as a standalone game. And as thin as these Careers feel, I'm having a tough time imagining three more specializations for each of them. Could they attach a non-Jedi tradition to a very Jedi-feeling Career as a Specialization? Sure, but it's still going to feel very strange, no matter the fluff.

In the end, for me and my group, this book will be the least valuable of the three. There is one player that may eventually pick up a specialization after going through the Exile and Emergent process, and that's assuming he still wants to when the opportunity arises. I'll definitely get some use out of it for making some interesting force-using villains, but that's it. I need to go back over all three books though... I seem to recall there was a section somewhere about replacing Obligation with Duty if the the characters transition, and I'm having a tough time imagining anyone other than the Jedi moving from Duty to Morality.

This isn't the 'Jedi in the Movie Era' book.

It's the 'Force-sensitive Book'.

FFG wanted to road-test the Force stuff first so it didn't break the system the way previous editions have. And they did a very good job.

Play non-Jedi. Or set your game in the KotOR or Legacy eras if you want. They only stress the movie era here, because it's what the vast amount of fans will be familiar with (as your group proves, same as mine).

Also... new F&D Beginner Box! Yay!

Count me as another customer who waited for a complete game before buying into the system. However, it's not because I wanted force users. I was intrigued by something I saw in the early marketing which I can't locate now. It talked about running characters through a sequence similar to the movies and having them grow beyond their initial roots/backgrounds, carrying character across all three settings.

In what way can't you do this now?

You can start a Luke Skywalker-type character off as a Colonist or Explorer, take Force-sensitive Exile as a second spec... Do Han Solo-type stuff for a bit...

... then take Ace specs and Force-sensitive Emergent as you join the Galactic Civil War and fight the Empire.

... and finally take a F&D Spec or two and call yourself a Jedi.

Pretty much covers the movies, I'd say.

Count me as another customer who waited for a complete game before buying into the system. However, it's not because I wanted force users. I was intrigued by something I saw in the early marketing which I can't locate now. It talked about running characters through a sequence similar to the movies and having them grow beyond their initial roots/backgrounds, carrying character across all three settings.

In what way can't you do this now?

You can start a Luke Skywalker-type character off as a Colonist or Explorer, take Force-sensitive Exile as a second spec... Do Han Solo-type stuff for a bit...

... then take Ace specs and Force-sensitive Emergent as you join the Galactic Civil War and fight the Empire.

... and finally take a F&D Spec or two and call yourself a Jedi.

Pretty much covers the movies, I'd say.

There was a significant group of us who got the initial impression from the writeup that the games were set up as a sort of stand alone 'progression' that mirrored the OT rather than being separate but compatible and equal games.

By that I mean EOTE characters were weaker than AOR, but play them, advance into AOR Careers, and they'd be stronger (vs how they're equals), and AOR would in turn escalate into F&D. Personally, I was part of this. I expected both FUs and non FUs in F&D, thus the 'destiny' part. Which would have meant that Bounty Hunter you made in EOTE might have had a path like "Bounty Hunter -> Rebel Scout/sniper -> Mandalorian Path Follower" or something like that.

Now, obviously the release of the AOR Beta dispelled this for us. But I can see where people trickling back in and who didn't follow the line due to (like me) being far more interested in a Clone Wars/KOTOR level of power being disappointed at what they came back to.

I would also note that even in the beta releases and such it does point out we're not Knight level, or really close. The game isn't meant for such play, and even breaks down at higher power levels. So yeah, there is still a level of disappointment for us.

Then again, maybe Clone Wars is going to be a surprise Beta at Gen Con this year and will cover higher level play! We can certainly hope.

Count me as another customer who waited for a complete game before buying into the system. However, it's not because I wanted force users. I was intrigued by something I saw in the early marketing which I can't locate now. It talked about running characters through a sequence similar to the movies and having them grow beyond their initial roots/backgrounds, carrying character across all three settings.

In what way can't you do this now?

You can start a Luke Skywalker-type character off as a Colonist or Explorer, take Force-sensitive Exile as a second spec... Do Han Solo-type stuff for a bit...

... then take Ace specs and Force-sensitive Emergent as you join the Galactic Civil War and fight the Empire.

... and finally take a F&D Spec or two and call yourself a Jedi.

Pretty much covers the movies, I'd say.

There was a significant group of us who got the initial impression from the writeup that the games were set up as a sort of stand alone 'progression' that mirrored the OT rather than being separate but compatible and equal games.

By that I mean EOTE characters were weaker than AOR, but play them, advance into AOR Careers, and they'd be stronger (vs how they're equals), and AOR would in turn escalate into F&D. Personally, I was part of this. I expected both FUs and non FUs in F&D, thus the 'destiny' part. Which would have meant that Bounty Hunter you made in EOTE might have had a path like "Bounty Hunter -> Rebel Scout/sniper -> Mandalorian Path Follower" or something like that.

Now, obviously the release of the AOR Beta dispelled this for us. But I can see where people trickling back in and who didn't follow the line due to (like me) being far more interested in a Clone Wars/KOTOR level of power being disappointed at what they came back to.

I would also note that even in the beta releases and such it does point out we're not Knight level, or really close. The game isn't meant for such play, and even breaks down at higher power levels. So yeah, there is still a level of disappointment for us.

Then again, maybe Clone Wars is going to be a surprise Beta at Gen Con this year and will cover higher level play! We can certainly hope.

actually the game does not break down at higher level. I have a character with 700 XP. Still room to grow and still has areas he can't handle.

If you want clone wars level play have characters build a base character then add 500XP or so. Done.

Untrue, the Devs themselves have said things breakdown when you get to 6 dice. It's in one of the Beta update threads.

EDIT: A link

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/128322-beta-update-11/page-3#entry1371641

They were referring to why they capped the amount of dice. Not high level play. High level play are characters with xp spent on skills talents and, in the case of Force users, Force powers. I have yet to see play degrade in any meaningful way with more xp.

This isn't the 'Jedi in the Movie Era' book.

It's the 'Force-sensitive Book'.

FFG wanted to road-test the Force stuff first so it didn't break the system the way previous editions have. And they did a very good job.

Play non-Jedi. Or set your game in the KotOR or Legacy eras if you want. They only stress the movie era here, because it's what the vast amount of fans will be familiar with (as your group proves, same as mine).

Also... new F&D Beginner Box! Yay!

I've made no comment about whether something works or not regarding mechanics or other game systems presentation of the force. However, if they stress the movies and then suddenly provide a book that feels jointed to people whose only Star Wars experience *is* the movies, I'm not sure why there is surprise over my or my groups reaction. I'm sure it's already too late for feedback, but it was provided regardless. "It's the force sensitive" book doesn't do anything to make the book any more meaningful to 3 of the 4 players in my group. <shrug>

I never said it couldn't be done. I don't have my AoR book, so I can't find if there was a section about transitioning from Obligation to Duty, but even if there isn't, I'm fairly confident it is easy to do. But with F&D, there is a "wall" that three of my players will bump into. There are no specs for them there. So I guess they'll just stick with their military Careers/Specializations and Duty as a mechanic, which is going to be awfully odd when the force using character finally reaches his pinnacle and adopts the new Morality system. Suddenly the group is no longer a cohesive unit, and may at that point wander off in different directions with different goals.

The first two books did a good job of presenting a couple aspects of the movie world and brought together disparate character types in pretty good fashion. But if you aren't a force user or a jedi, the third book provides you nothing. It would have been interesting to see the third book present a post-Empire feel that brought together those same disparate types (with sure, a focus on force users, but not exclusively) toward recovery and rebuilding. Admittedly, even that is probably outside the "movie era", but I think it would have been a lot more interesting than the "Ooo, KotoR" vibe the beta currently evokes. Even the player of the force using character isn't interested in a all-jedi group... he has an MMO that scratches that itch for him regularly.

Again, F&D may be just great for running a group of surviving jedi or even recreating a different era. I have no problem with that, and if there are lots of groups looking to do that sort of thing, then that is great and will probably mean a well received product. Between all of my group, we have 3 copies of Edge and 2 copies of Age. It looks I will be the only one picking up F&D, because even the force sensitive in the group knows he can get by with just borrowing it from me to pick up a spec if he decides to. None of this is meant as some sort of condemnation of F&D as a terrible and horrible thing, just relating the reactions of me and my group to our perusal of the beta. We'll play through a lot of Edge stuff and a fair amount of Age material, but I suspect the interest will taper off once the F&D material starts to work in to the campaign.

This isn't the 'Jedi in the Movie Era' book.

It's the 'Force-sensitive Book'.

FFG wanted to road-test the Force stuff first so it didn't break the system the way previous editions have. And they did a very good job.

Play non-Jedi. Or set your game in the KotOR or Legacy eras if you want. They only stress the movie era here, because it's what the vast amount of fans will be familiar with (as your group proves, same as mine).

Also... new F&D Beginner Box! Yay!

I've made no comment about whether something works or not regarding mechanics or other game systems presentation of the force. However, if they stress the movies and then suddenly provide a book that feels jointed to people whose only Star Wars experience *is* the movies, I'm not sure why there is surprise over my or my groups reaction. I'm sure it's already too late for feedback, but it was provided regardless. "It's the force sensitive" book doesn't do anything to make the book any more meaningful to 3 of the 4 players in my group. <shrug>

Count me as another customer who waited for a complete game before buying into the system. However, it's not because I wanted force users. I was intrigued by something I saw in the early marketing which I can't locate now. It talked about running characters through a sequence similar to the movies and having them grow beyond their initial roots/backgrounds, carrying character across all three settings.

In what way can't you do this now?

You can start a Luke Skywalker-type character off as a Colonist or Explorer, take Force-sensitive Exile as a second spec... Do Han Solo-type stuff for a bit...

... then take Ace specs and Force-sensitive Emergent as you join the Galactic Civil War and fight the Empire.

... and finally take a F&D Spec or two and call yourself a Jedi.

Pretty much covers the movies, I'd say.

I never said it couldn't be done. I don't have my AoR book, so I can't find if there was a section about transitioning from Obligation to Duty, but even if there isn't, I'm fairly confident it is easy to do. But with F&D, there is a "wall" that three of my players will bump into. There are no specs for them there. So I guess they'll just stick with their military Careers/Specializations and Duty as a mechanic, which is going to be awfully odd when the force using character finally reaches his pinnacle and adopts the new Morality system. Suddenly the group is no longer a cohesive unit, and may at that point wander off in different directions with different goals.

The first two books did a good job of presenting a couple aspects of the movie world and brought together disparate character types in pretty good fashion. But if you aren't a force user or a jedi, the third book provides you nothing. It would have been interesting to see the third book present a post-Empire feel that brought together those same disparate types (with sure, a focus on force users, but not exclusively) toward recovery and rebuilding. Admittedly, even that is probably outside the "movie era", but I think it would have been a lot more interesting than the "Ooo, KotoR" vibe the beta currently evokes. Even the player of the force using character isn't interested in a all-jedi group... he has an MMO that scratches that itch for him regularly.

Again, F&D may be just great for running a group of surviving jedi or even recreating a different era. I have no problem with that, and if there are lots of groups looking to do that sort of thing, then that is great and will probably mean a well received product. Between all of my group, we have 3 copies of Edge and 2 copies of Age. It looks I will be the only one picking up F&D, because even the force sensitive in the group knows he can get by with just borrowing it from me to pick up a spec if he decides to. None of this is meant as some sort of condemnation of F&D as a terrible and horrible thing, just relating the reactions of me and my group to our perusal of the beta. We'll play through a lot of Edge stuff and a fair amount of Age material, but I suspect the interest will taper off once the F&D material starts to work in to the campaign.

We do not know what fluff they will be including yet. So many of your comments are not based on what will be in the book. All the beta had was the rules. so that that part could be tested and bugs found.

Age of rebellion did have info on switching to duty and running with both. The last beta update had info on running with all 3.

parusing the beta really does not tell you how it runs and like I said the book has no fluff or info on running campaigns. That comes with the core. The intent of the beta is to get the mechanics pounded on by players to find breakage points and problems.

It is the book designed for force users but that does not preclude it from sitting in the post Republic era quite the opposite in fact.

The system seems designed for players to run a Luke or Corran Horn type character. Someone trying to discover the force on their own. If that does not interest your players fair enough you do not have to use it.

Darkbridger, I'm kind of baffled as to what you would want from the Force book. They kept it 'til last for a reason, because it was absolutely essential they got the balance right.

If Force stuff is not for you, you don't have to get it. That's why they divided the Core rules up like this. If someone isn't interested in a particular theme, they don't have to get that book, and the game runs absolutely fine without it.

We don't know what fluff will be in the finished book. Does it especially feel like the movie era? No, not to me. Which is why I threw the movie canon out. But I think it would suit fine in an immediately-post-movies setting when you were trying to rebuild the Jedi or something.

They made it clear the lines were all compatible and the later books would exist alongside the old ones, with no 'power creep' or intent that each would be an 'advancement' on the other. Our group has now played an F&D characters with the AOR group, and an AOR character with the EOE group, and it all balances perfectly as far as I can see.