no Princess, Farmboy, Smuggler and his Wookie friend
If I were building them with just F&D (aside from wookie species) it would be Mystic/advisor ( right side, to at least plausabil deniability), Warrior/starfighter ace (for both mechanics and piloting), Guardian/protector ( hug the right side to avoid stimpack talents), and Sentinel/Artisan for the walking carpet.
It feels off that the one book that deals with force use specifically and they can't create beginner character pre-gens...
"They can't"? Where do you get this from?
It feels off that the one book that deals with force use specifically and they can't create beginner character pre-gens...
"They can't"? Where do you get this from?
I don't view F&D as a standalone game, rather more as an extension of the previous two. In some ways, that's how I wish they'd have marketed it: as a sourcebook both for those who want to expand on their character's Force abilities, and for those who want to run an Old Republic-style game. That would make it more clear that you could approach Force users from either direction, and still make the earlier careers available. I don't think I'd run, or want to play in, a pure F&D-only campaign.
I think this is a bit a problem for this line. I have been reading through it, and as you say it does feel more like an extension for the other two, rather than a stand alone game. In my opinion the main reason for this is party motivation. I don't get much of a sense of why a party in this system exists, or what its goals will be. Edge of Empire was in many ways "Firefly". You are the crew of a ship, trying to get by on the fringes. You might be trying to find the mother-load, do that one job or get-rich-quick scheme that sets you up for life (like some interstellar Del Boy and Rodney), or you might be just trying to stay under the radar, avoiding some terrible past, or a debt you own. Age of Rebellion is pretty straight forward in the reason and motivation: You are Rebel agents taking part in the struggle against the Empire. Your final aim is the downfall of the Empire.
Force and Destiny? Why are your characters together? Ok, you might be force-users trying to find safety and solace together, or a group (or remains of a group) being taught by a Jedi. But what is you overall direction? What are you and your party actually meant to be achieving?
Force and Destiny? Why are your characters together? Ok, you might be force-users trying to find safety and solace together, or a group (or remains of a group) being taught by a Jedi. But what is you overall direction? What are you and your party actually meant to be achieving?
That would depend on the play group.
The other two lines may have an obvious thing to bind the group, but that often gets old if you rehash it enough times. That said, it would be useful for new players and GMs to have a discussion in the final copy of some of the possible chronicles that could be played with this set. I think the other two lines had some discussions along those lines. Perhaps I am remembering something else.
Each core book, while set during the rebellion era of the OT, allows for play in any era. Your Fringe game can be set during the Old Republic or the time of the One Sith. Your AoR game too. FFG has done, in my ever so humble opinion, an admirable job of creating an excellent toolbox with all three systems in that they can be used individually or together. F&D incorporates elements that allow for play in any era as Jedi, Force adepts, Imperial knights or what have you. You can easily play entire groups of Force users in whatever fashion you want to. If you can not come up with any ideas then come on here and ask and many various imaginative individuals will give you ideas. People need to stop focusing so much on the era these books are set in. It is only a suggestion. If FFG limited that much there would be no need for the F&D book. Just stick with a couple of the UniSpecs. But the reality is people want the ability to play full-blown Force users, whether they be Jedi, Witches, knights or whatever. Now we have the ability to either play complete Force games or add complete Force characters to an existing campaign.
Force and Destiny? Why are your characters together? Ok, you might be force-users trying to find safety and solace together, or a group (or remains of a group) being taught by a Jedi. But what is you overall direction? What are you and your party actually meant to be achieving?
I imagine they will address this in the full book. However, if I had to run a full F&D new-chargen group right now, it would be set in the Old Republic, they'd all be early/mid-Padawans. Perhaps start with a murder mystery, one of their masters was killed, and the Padawans aren't convinced enough is being done to resolve it. So they group together to see what they can find, perhaps corruption in the Temple or whatever. Through the course of investigating this web they will gain enough XP to graduate as full Knights (300XP or so), giving them complete independence from the Temple. Then just take it from there.
I don't entirely disagree with what some are saying but I do think that by not including a few of the more iconic Career types they kind of missed an opportunity to actually make this a stand alone game. The truth of it as I see it, is that some of current Force User Careers are kind of a stretch, like they needed six to keep it like the other books so they split up what could have been say three, or even just one (with more Specializations) and a splatbook or two.
From what I can see so far is that because of this choice they for example needlessly split up different Lightsaber techniques into different Trees.
The more I look at it the more I would have rather seen a CRB with four or five traditional Careers with a Specialization or two replaced in each, and one or two Force User Careers with extra Specializations and a splatbook for Lightside and other Force Using traditions, and another for Darkside.
Edit: Added Below and changed a bit uptop:
I'd go with Careers something like:
Citizen (Colonist type)
Ex-Imperial/Republic (Soldier & Pilot Type)
Underworld (Smuggler/Hired Gun Type)
Droid (Droid)
Non-traditional Force User Type
Force User Jedi'ish Type
However, it should also find a sensible balance between everything you may want and something that may reasonably be desired. By being as specialised as it is it does not achieve that, there is no Princess, Farmboy, Smuggler and his Wookie friend.
With no overlap in careers and specialisations, which AoR had. I think those "whiney threads" that complain about the need to buy multiple books have a certain valadity to them that AoR didn't.
No, you can't make those specific character in their entirety. Yes, the books work better together. However, as others have pointed out there is significant conceptual overlap with the other series. And many people DO want to play a group of all force users. Personally I prefer playing counterculture to whatever I'm supposed to be but that's not really the point. FFG is clearly assuming that Star Wars fans will eventually want to buy all the books but they don't make an assumption about which one people will start with or that everyone playing will be Star Wars fans. Some groups will never pick up F&D. Some will only play FUs.
The only kind of alternative publication format that makes sense is the nWoD model, but the the problem is that there are no "vanilla mortals". So you'd be paying $40 for just the rules and the you'd have to drop another $40 for each career, sector, or plotline you wanted to play. Imagine that, every quarter you get access to a new career. One year later you might actually be able to play a game...
I think F&D would feel more stand-alone if it's theme and setting was inclined to an era where the Jedi Order was still intact. The Empire era does make it more difficult to design Jedi-themed adventures or assemble an entire party of force-users, compared to the Clone Wars, the Old Republic, Legacy, etc.
Don't get me wrong, it's the ideal era for FFG to have chosen as the default and I myself prefer it. And I expect there is a demand for mostly-Jedi player groups that warrants an entire book dedicated to Jedi. If they dedicated even a portion of the careers to non-force users (particularly if they were just broader variants of rebel or fringer careers) you know more people would complain of duplicated careers/roles from the other books.
Perhaps part of the issue is that F&D's PC narrative mechanic doesn't lend itself as well to guiding the direction of campaigns and developing character's place in the story. EotE's Obligation fleshes out backgrounds and uses them as conflict, throwing a wrench into the PC's money-making missions; AoR's Duty guides the characters' objectives and prompts the GM to design adventures around these personalized goals.
I'm not sure Morality really serves as more than a variation of Duty. It guides your PC actions but not in any framework of accomplishing a greater goal (like serving the Alliance or resolving personal backstory conflicts).
To me the obvious format for F&D adventures would be resolving personal destinies by learning the ways of the Force, much like Luke's story arc. An all-Jedi group in the Empire era would therefore band together for safety and a shared path to Knighthood to achieve their personal goals (be it redemption or self-discovery, revenge, etc). The closest Star Wars analog might be the surviving jedi team in novel Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader.
Morality is an important component of PC development but F&D makes it to be the primary narrative tool when all it does is shape minor encounters and track PC reactions. As the Force-user core book F&D really needs a narrative mechanic that shapes the PC's destinies.
I think good careers would be
Don't forget Witchalock.
And Troll.
And Troll.
Only if the Troll doesn't have a Force Rating.
Morality is an important component of PC development but F&D makes it to be the primary narrative tool when all it does is shape minor encounters and track PC reactions. As the Force-user core book F&D really needs a narrative mechanic that shapes the PC's destinies.
I don't entirely disagree with what some are saying but I do think that by not including a few of the more iconic Career types they kind of missed an opportunity to actually make this a stand alone game. The truth of it as I see it, is that some of current Force User Careers are kind of a stretch, like they needed six to keep it like the other books so they split up what could have been say three, or even just one (with more Specializations) and a splatbook or two.
From what I can see so far is that because of this choice they for example needlessly split up different Lightsaber techniques into different Trees.
The more I look at it the more I would have rather seen a CRB with four or five traditional Careers with a Specialization or two replaced in each, and one or two Force User Careers with extra Specializations and a splatbook for Lightside and other Force Using traditions, and another for Darkside.
Edit: Added Below and changed a bit uptop:
I'd go with Careers something like:
Citizen (Colonist type)
Ex-Imperial/Republic (Soldier & Pilot Type)
Underworld (Smuggler/Hired Gun Type)
Droid (Droid)
Non-traditional Force User Type
Force User Jedi'ish Type
I thought they were going to go all non force using careers with universal force specs. They didn't they went this way and I like their way better. We have 12 non force using careers. How many flavors of the basic 6 careers do we really need? We already have all the non force using classes you suggested. I think FFG was correct in not beating that dead horse again.
I thought they were going to go all non force using careers with universal force specs*. They didn't they went this way and I like their way better. We have 12 non force using careers. How many flavors of the basic 6 careers do we really need? We already have all the non force using classes you suggested. I think FFG was correct in not beating that dead horse again.
I think from a stand alone game perspective they didn't really hit the mark and at the same time I agree that we don't really need many more non-Force using Careers. However even with this in mind I still think that this RPG series would have been better served if they hadn't focused exclusivity on Force Users in the way they have. If we are going to agree on an all Force Users then I would have liked to have seen six entirely different kinds of Force Users, based the kinds we've seen in the EU (well the new EU at least), rather than what we see which is for the most part pretty minor variations on the same Career. I'd have rather seen say an EX-Imperial Force User, a Witch of Dathomir, a Miralukian etc. along with the basic Jedi based FUs that we see. Sure you can make them using whats provided but it still feel like most of the work is left to us (which is fine but...).
Right now to build a Force User like Obi Wan you're going to have to pull from several FU Career Specializations because they chose to shave them as thin as they have rather then have fewer, broader choices. You can but it's more costly and convoluted. I used the example of Lightsaber styles and it fits because you really shouldn't have to buy into two or three trees to know more than one LS technique.
Don't get me wrong, I like what has been produced much more than how Jedi/Force Users have been done in other systems, I just wanted it less stratified and more open.
* I had hoped the same.
I think good careers would be
- Barbarian
- Bard
- Cleric
- Darth Maul
- Druid
- Fighter
- Jedi
- Monk
- Paladin
- Ranger
- Rogue
- Sorceror
- Wizard
- Warlock
You may be in luck, Want to buy a non-stand alone core book for $50 with those very careers in them?
I'm more inclined towards removing the Lightsaber Careers and make them more like the Basic Training from Age of Rebellion.
Prerequisite of the Lightsaber skill at 1 to buy the 10pt Lightsaber Combat Style/whichever one you want with an option that once you've increased the skill to 2 as well as bought say a talent from the 5, 10 and 15pt column you can purchase another Lightsaber Combat Style so they can obtain the myriad of combat styles so they gain the same sort of experience Anakin and Obi-Wan supposedly had in the ROTS.
Not identical mind you but it feels a waste that they turn those Lightsaber Combat Styles into Careers when that career could have been used to add some Force Tradition version and I don't mean Jedi since that and Sith probably need their own splatbook but then again I have no idea what lengths they went to just to decide what careers and specialities there should be!
Back to the reading I guess!
Right now to build a Force User like Obi Wan you're going to have to pull from several FU Career Specializations ...
And?
This is a frustrating perception, as I doubt the iconic characters in the rest of star wars exist in just one career. I think Boba fet may have been a commando, gadgeteer, Mercenary. Amidala may have been a politico, recruit, ambassador. Han was at least pilot, scoundrel, tactician. Even leia from the films may have been an ambassador, advisor, commodor.
Some people think the careers are unfair to the iconic jedi because there is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much written about them (and to some too many good options that are MUST HAVES), but to make some of the iconic non-force using characters, it's not just 300xp in one spec and complete.
*I don't mean to call you out, and I agree with basically everything else you said in some form or fashion. but this above mentality bothers me, because it's such a common misconception of characters and their representation/development.*
To be clear, I think that the way FFG did it is mechanically and conceptually viable. That doesn't mean I think its the best idea in the world.
Personally I was hoping for:
Traditionalist [someone who knows what the force is] (Consular, Guardian, Sentinel)
Intuitive [someone who uses the force without knowing it] (Adept[physical enhancement],Mystic["spellcaster"],Psychic[mental enhancement])
4xnon-or-partial force using careers
with the book having been released, I could change it to:
Traditionalist (Consular, Guardian, Sentinel)
Intuitive (Adept, Mystic, Psychic)
Specialist(Blademaster, Artisan, Pathfinder)
I could see splitting Blademaster off of Specialist as its own career, but I'm not really sure what else wouldn't be better covered by multi-spec'ing with a non-FU specialization. In fact, I think that is the biggest problem people are have with F&D. The book essentially implies that a third of all meaningful characters are FUs and then goes out of its way to create extra archetypes to avoid the need to multi-spec with non-FU careers. A lot of the F&D careers could be described with the phrase "It's like that out specialization, except with the Force."
The one thing I am very happy did not happen is an overly narrow focus on specific force-using traditions.
I get you, but what I was trying to point out was that unlike the examples you've mentioned which are Characters built from pretty different Career types, the Force User Careers provided in F&D feel like their only different because they had to come up with six. What I'm saying is that they are really, for the most part, six sides to the same die not six different dice which better describes the other Careers found in the individual CRBs. This is where I wanted either more difference between the Careers provided or fewer, broader Careers.
No, and I understand that, but there has been a fair deal of people saying that "[insert name] style PC isn't viable right out of the gate because I have to make choices and not just have everything given to me to play a jedi like [insert name], jedi master from the jedi council."
Of course that's paraphrasing, and not directed at you, or anyone in particular.
I actually think some of the careers are odd, and while I understand why makashi is in the same catagory as advisor (presence being a key stat and the light foil duelists from the EU being nobles... sure it fits. But Seer? that's only with them because that career is called mystic, which how mystic mingles with makashi lightsaber duelist is beyond me.
Same with ataru being meshed with the seeker career. It's there because it needed to be somewhere, and the hunter's mild focus on ranged combat with intuitive shot seems like as good a place as any.
Don't get me wrong, these careers are dubious to me in a way that the EotE and AoR careers weren't (though I hated the spy career getting.. scout was it? grumble).
But that stuff is all in a name. And we're about to intergrate a houserule that my players have been clamoring for to make cross spec'ing easier, so I have very little interest in it. and sorry. I'm rambling. carry on the discussions.
And we're about to intergrate a houserule that my players have been clamoring for to make cross spec'ing easier
Actually, it's a flat 20/30 rule. the flip side is you only get 1 class skill from your new spec. Not all of them.
We were going to do no additional class skills, but we decided this potentially makes exile and emergent too attractive.
May work well. may not. we'll have to wait and see. a fter the beta.
Edited by Thebearisdriving