It's hard to explain but currently F&D feels a little too pre-Rebellion Era to me and I think getting rid of the Force User Careers and instead just expanding on the Exile/Emergent style we see in EotE and AoR might be a better way to go. I'm not dumping on F&D, I like it and I think playing it as is will be plenty fun, though maybe in a different era, but having those Careers just doesn't feel old skool Star Wars-y to me.

I haven't decided yet and I'm too busy right now to play with it but I've been considering when the final CRB comes out to just not have any F&D Careers available (Unless one of the Players wants to play a Witch or some other obviously non-jedi type) then go through the Specializations and condense them down to 3 or 4. I'll then have all the PCs that want to be FU to choose a Career from EotE or AoR and Exile or Emergent. Once they do this they'll gain access to those 3-4 other Specialization trees.

Pretty sure that is not going to happen. Seeing as how we are 6 beta updates in. I thought they were going to go that route. they aren't though. This way ends up being better. Something to keep in mind. Your game is not and never will be canon. So you do not need to constrain yourself with Canon.

I think part of his concern is something I'm seeing more and more. Basically, F&D represents the dark side of the Force, and that upsets some of people. In F&D, you can start right away as a Force user, cutting a lot of the run around and BS we've had to put up with up until now. You have the quick and easy path where you can immediately get power. This is thematic for some, but for most gamers, this is strictly a power gaming decision.

You'll have to point out all these people that feel F&D represents the "dark" side because I have missed it. And it is far from power gaming.

So I think the primary concern, like one that I have, is that we already have rules for handling Force users, and that using careers and dropping this quick and easy path up front may have been a misstep.

What is "quick and easy" about it? You start with FR1 and get fewer skills. The F&D talents aren't more potent. I don't get the problem.

It's hard to explain but currently F&D feels a little too pre-Rebellion Era to me and I think getting rid of the Force User Careers and instead just expanding on the Exile/Emergent style we see in EotE and AoR might be a better way to go.

But you can already do that. Why have a book that repeats the formula? If you wanted the Force specs to be Universal, then just house rule that in your game: you have to start with an EotE/AoR spec, and make all the F&D specs 10XP cheaper. Done.

It's hard to explain but currently F&D feels a little too pre-Rebellion Era to me and I think getting rid of the Force User Careers and instead just expanding on the Exile/Emergent style we see in EotE and AoR might be a better way to go. I'm not dumping on F&D, I like it and I think playing it as is will be plenty fun, though maybe in a different era, but having those Careers just doesn't feel old skool Star Wars-y to me.

I haven't decided yet and I'm too busy right now to play with it but I've been considering when the final CRB comes out to just not have any F&D Careers available (Unless one of the Players wants to play a Witch or some other obviously non-jedi type) then go through the Specializations and condense them down to 3 or 4. I'll then have all the PCs that want to be FU to choose a Career from EotE or AoR and Exile or Emergent. Once they do this they'll gain access to those 3-4 other Specialization trees.

Pretty sure that is not going to happen. Seeing as how we are 6 beta updates in. I thought they were going to go that route. they aren't though. This way ends up being better. Something to keep in mind. Your game is not and never will be canon. So you do not need to constrain yourself with Canon.

Oh I wasn't thinking they would change it, too much was already invested before even the Beta was released and how it's laid out not inherently a bad way to do it. Nor do I think that it's so much Cannon that is the issue for me, it's just how it feels , I like the feeling of the original film universe and the current F&D Careers just don't feel like what we see in those films. I grew up with those films and they're Star Wars to me (the prequels were cra*p IMO and best left unremembered, the KOTOR games were great but thats Old Republic, and I've only just now read a couple of the books). Anyway it'll also be a story thing because until my Players and myself get tired of playing in the Rebellion Era and choose to move on to a Post or Pre-Rebellion game I'm going to try out what I mentioned above because I think it better represent what kind of FU one would find in this milieu.

I'm not seeing how it's quick and easy honestly.

To be able to use Force Powers well, you need to spend quite a bit on them and your talents, and your skills. I feel like Force Users are balanced in that, yes they have more options, but they don't get more exp to have as many talents and skills as a Non-Force User nor access to as many skills. An EotE or AoR is gonna be really good at what they do given the amount of exp a Force User has to use to be decent at two things or to Focus in one and be lackluster at another.

Even in the current Canon there are obviously enough Force Users still out there and new ones who are coming into their power that a party of them like four doesn't really hurt anything. Don't forget how the Empire is constantly hunting them down, which would imply that there are enough to worry about hunting down. The Force could pull the party together for simply survival or because they need to accomplish something.

Quick and easy path to Force Lighting:

So for the low, low price of 240 XP, you can have a Dark Side Force user dealing (say) 8-10 damage plus Success at Short range, possible Advantage uses (Burn 4-5 for 2 Advantage & a Force point, Ensnare 2 for 2 Advantage and a Force point, or 1 strain inflicted per Advantage for a Force point), and a crit rating of 4 (or 1 with a Force point).

Or you could start with flame projector and a bola for 1,000 credits & change. Talk about quick & easy...

Nor do I think that it's so much Cannon that is the issue for me, it's just how it feels , I like the feeling of the original film universe and the current F&D Careers just don't feel like what we see in those films.

So far, the Guardian and Sentinel have the best Original Trilogy Jedi feel about them. That still leaves a lot of room for everything else from other sources. Given their design plan from the start, I think it was inevitable that with 18 specs to stat, they'd be pulling from every source they could find.

Even so, any EotE/AoR -> FSE -> saberist character is going to absolutely feel like an OT Jedi -- no problem there...

Even so, any EotE/AoR -> FSE -> saberist character is going to absolutely feel like an OT Jedi -- no problem there...

Having played exactly such a character (Smuggler/Scoundrel/FSEmergent/Ataru Striker), I agree with this 100%. My character was certainly capable and could do a number of the things we saw Luke accomplish in the OT, but he wasn't the unstoppable force that the PT Jedi were.

Which makes perfect sense because my character didn't have a lifetime of Jedi training before becoming an adventurer, and much of what he learned was done through trail-and-error or a binge study course with a holocron before handing it over to a private collector as we'd been hired to do.

To elaborate on my comparison to the Dark Side, Yoda explained that the Dark Side of the Force was not I'm fact more powerful or stronger; only faster and easier. That is exactly what I see in F&D. It's true that the characters aren't better, harder, faster, or stronger than any other character. But in EoE and AoR, your path through the Force was a slow one. It took time to build yourself up and gain power. The was progression and a sense of training. But in F&D, it's bang, now, I'm a Force user. Right from day one, you have a Force rating of one, can buy up powers, can own some variety of lightsaber, and may even be using Knight play rules. Right there, right up front, immediately and unfiltered, you are a Force user. You have gained the same power and a faster pace, without progression and without that same sense of training.

The quest for a lightsaber is itself very different. In EoE, I've been bringing up lightsaber acquisition for my character but equally bring up how ly character is not ready to ignite a lightsaber. She does not have the martial skills to use it, nor the stealth to evade her enemies or physical durability to withstand the increased aggression she would attract. But I'm F&D, these things don't seem to matter. You basically get lightsabers at the end of the Lost Knowledge adventure that's included in the book, which is described as an opening adventure for new characters. While not the most powerful crystal out there, it escalates things pretty quickly. Gone is all of that discussion of whether or not you are ready for a lightsaber, because here you go.

That all sounds pretty quick and easy to me. And that more and more criticism is coming out (here and on other forums) shows that more and more people think that maybe this game isn't all sunshine and rainbows.

Quick and easy path to Force Lighting:

...

Or you could start with flame projector and a bola for 1,000 credits & change. Talk about quick & easy...

Might be hard to sneak past the scanners at a fancy party.

Mighty Fine Shindig!

But in F&D, it's bang, now, I'm a Force user. Right from day one, you have a Force rating of one, can buy up powers, can own some variety of lightsaber, and may even be using Knight play rules. Right there, right up front, immediately and unfiltered, you are a Force user. You have gained the same power and a faster pace, without progression and without that same sense of training.

Even if you are right (which I don't think you are in this case), that's a huge exaggeration. You can spend 20XP in EotE, which you'll probably earn in the first session after chargen , if you didn't spend it during, and "bang, now, I'm a Force user" with all the same potential. Meanwhile you'll have more Talents and Skills.

I don't think there is anything inherent in F&D that makes things easier, except (maybe) the lightsaber thing. As the GM you can take it at as slow a pace as you want. But if somebody wanted to have a TCW campaign where the backstory is the PCs are already a Knight, then F&D allows that too.

Basically they are allowing everything. Nothing wrong with that.

Man I'm so upset that in FORCE AND DESTINY they focused on FORCE USERS instead of adding more non-force based classes because you know 12 isn't enough at all not counting the splat books. Wow, if you don't like the Force careers then don't use them.

Like seriously please give me other careers they could've added that aren't Force Based that aren't already covered by something that already exists in AoR or EotE.

Ah I see. Creating a book that has Force use as it's primary focus instead of a secondary one like the previous two books means that it is Dark focused. Makes perfect sense.

I'm just going to throw out there as someone who essentially just started with the system. The only reason I'm running games in this system instead of Saga is because this book finally hit beta test. For the record, I like this system far more than Saga as I prefer the cinematic feel for a Star Wars game compared to any d20 system (primarily anyway. there are tons of other smaller reasons I like this system better and a few ways I feel that Saga is better). EotE and AoR lacking playable Jedi was a major letdown for me (and a majority of the players across the playgroups I've run Star Wars games for). The game needed a book that was devoted primarily to Jedi and other masters of the Force because, to many of us, Star Wars feels incomplete without them. The game needed a sourcebook for Jedi and (more importantly) a fully developed Force power system.

Yes, I understand that they're aiming for the Rebellion era with relative disregard for other eras of play. However, if you want to take your game outside that extremely narrow band, you couldn't really use the system and have it work right. The game I'm currently running is taking a 16 year old Padawan plus some mundane companions (4.5 total players) starting at around 20ish BBY at the height of the Clone Wars. We're running through Order 66 and focusing on the balance between upholding Jedi values and tradition vs the need to stay hidden from the empire and merely survive in a universe that hates them. I find that period transition to be one of the most interesting that Star Wars has to offer and found it very difficult to justify using the FFG system when I didn't have Jedi as playable PCs. It's a period directly abutting and running into the target era but was essentially unplayable without this book (or without breaking out our well-worn Saga books, which is what we had been doing up until recently).

That being said, I understand the concept that this book is being marketed as a stand-alone RPG system and thus should have all the mundane careers as options too. That was my exact argument for not bothering to purchase any FFG Star Wars product until GenCon 2014. Personally, I feel that they should have done a more "traditional" RPG release with all archetypes represented in the core book and left additional options (additional careers, specializations, etc for all types of characters) to the expansions. To me (and most of my players), EotE and AoR were not stand-alone systems either. They required this book to come out before it became a complete system. I think the method of calling each of these a " stand-alone rpg system " and giving each a different title is really what has led to this issue. If they had just said they were releasing three core books for the same system, each of which would be covering the three major archetypes and exploring all sorts of options within them , I think this issue would have been ameliorated (the current issue specifically regarding the lack of mundane careers in F&D anyway; I still would have considered EotE and AoR incomplete until all three books were available).

Regardless, this was the path FFG chose. So, those who complain about the lack of mundane careers in F&D, I suggest you stick with your EotE and AoR careers that you've had for quite some time while those of us who love Jedi and Force-users in general get our shot at the new system. Conveniently, you have all the core system rules like combat and such in those books, so there's no need to even buy this one.

If they had just said they were releasing three core books for the same system, each of which would be covering the three major archetypes and exploring all sorts of options within them , I think this issue would have been ameliorated (the current issue specifically regarding the lack of mundane careers in F&D anyway; I still would have considered EotE and AoR incomplete until all three books were available).

Which is pretty much what FFG have said they were/are doing from the beginning.

If they had just said they were releasing three core books for the same system, each of which would be covering the three major archetypes and exploring all sorts of options within them , I think this issue would have been ameliorated (the current issue specifically regarding the lack of mundane careers in F&D anyway; I still would have considered EotE and AoR incomplete until all three books were available).

Which is pretty much what FFG have said they were/are doing from the beginning.

I agree that it's essentially what they were saying. I just think it would have avoided the whole "stand-alone" argument if they'd said explicitly they weren't really stand-alone.

Each book is stand-alone. They didn't deviate from that. They also made sure each book is usable with the other. Just because some people's ideal (including my own) is a game that combines all three elements doesn't mean it was a bad/wrong idea. Their concept allowed for them to concentrate on different aspects more thoroughly than a book which tried to combine all of them. While some people would have been content with such a vanilla book combining all aspects it has been done before and FFG did not want to repeat the same things in their version.

Each book is stand-alone. They didn't deviate from that. They also made sure each book is usable with the other. Just because some people's ideal (including my own) is a game that combines all three elements doesn't mean it was a bad/wrong idea. Their concept allowed for them to concentrate on different aspects more thoroughly than a book which tried to combine all of them. While some people would have been content with such a vanilla book combining all aspects it has been done before and FFG did not want to repeat the same things in their version.

I don't necessarily think it was a bad idea (I just would have preferred a more traditional approach because I would have been playing with the awesome system ages ago instead of just starting recently); I'm just saying the way the chose to do it resulted in this argument. In that portion of my post, I'm merely stating that, had they released everything under a different organizational framework, we would have the exact same game mechanics under a unified system but this thread wouldn't exist. The argument that there should be mundane classes in the force book would be obviated by a system that included the exact same careers, specializations, and other character options that we have today but released them in one book or a core book plus expansions.

The point I'm trying to get across is that they do have mundane careers if you want to play them in a F&D game; they're just in the other books. Saying that there should be mundane careers in the force-user book is the same thing (considering that all these books currently exist and are not just scheduled for the future) as saying that you should have the option to play a mundane character in a Force-user only campaign created by your GM. If your GM wants you to be able to play a mundane character in his campaign utilizing F&D, s/he will allow it. Otherwise, you're stuck with the options presented in the book because your GM said so rather than because the system doesn't support it. F&D is the sourcebook that, as a stand-alone system, is designed to give Force-users a similar set of options and talent trees made special by their access to the Force. F&D doesn't need mundane careers.

I don't necessarily think it was a bad idea (I just would have preferred a more traditional approach because I would have been playing with the awesome system ages ago instead of just starting recently);

Well, no you wouldn't have. You wouldn't have gotten the game until now anyway because of the all the development and play testing required. FFG would have missed out on considerable revenue, not just from the core book, but all the other supplements and modules they've released so far, and have to still overcome the marketing hurdle of "strange dice". Plus the game itself wouldn't have benefitted from two years of solid real world testing, so would likely still have bugs. And they couldn't exactly market the previous games as a "partial experience", that would have put people off.

People need to divorce their ideal from the practical reality of producing a game that tries to encapsulate a world as complicated as Star Wars. I think they made the best possible choice. The only drawback from previously marketing EotE and AoR as "standalone" is they now need to re-market all three books as the "complete trilogy", and make it clear that cross-pollination of careers and specs are encouraged.

Well, no you wouldn't have. You wouldn't have gotten the game until now anyway because of the all the development and play testing required. FFG would have missed out on considerable revenue, not just from the core book, but all the other supplements and modules they've released so far, and have to still overcome the marketing hurdle of "strange dice". Plus the game itself wouldn't have benefitted from two years of solid real world testing, so would likely still have bugs. And they couldn't exactly market the previous games as a "partial experience", that would have put people off.

People need to divorce their ideal from the practical reality of producing a game that tries to encapsulate a world as complicated as Star Wars. I think they made the best possible choice. The only drawback from previously marketing EotE and AoR as "standalone" is they now need to re-market all three books as the "complete trilogy", and make it clear that cross-pollination of careers and specs are encouraged.

This misses the point of my post. When I said I would have preferred a more traditional release as a parenthetical aside, I just meant it would have been nice for me if the things I liked were released at the beginning instead of a couple years later. I like the system, but just wasn't ready to get into it until the things I liked were playable. This was unrelated to my main point. My apologies for side-tracking my own post.

Regardless of all that, the books now exist. My primary point is that F&D does not need mundane careers because those other books are out there and cover all that stuff. We don't need to reinvent the wheel in the Force-user book. Similar trees with the unique touch of the Force gives Force-users similar options to what the other characters have in the other books. If you want to play someone who isn't Force-sensitive, get something out of one of the two other core books. If your GM doesn't let you play that, it's the same thing as your GM saying that he's running a Force-user only campaign and doesn't want you to play a mundane.

The only drawback from previously marketing EotE and AoR as "standalone" is they now need to re-market all three books as the "complete trilogy", and make it clear that cross-pollination of careers and specs are encouraged.

I agree, and i think that they should add a page which suggest doing that and gives some examples of possible careers that mixes the classes and the specs, a bit like they did in Far Horizon (that was one of the best parts of the book: explicit path to build different careers).

I also think that the "force sensitive variations" of the Edge/Age careers are useful beyond the stand alone part: they add flavor and allow you to fully implement certain character concepts better than before (IMO the Gand Findsman should be built as Seeker:hunter/fringer rather than the more convoluted Explorer:scout/fringer/Force Sensitve)

Can't please everyone. If FFG had done a combined book, people would have complained that it was too focused or not broad enough. Or that this or that wasn't in it. Or that they had to wait for their special part until some expansion supplement that comes out two years later. Or any other multitude of complaints. Personally I think the system is better for their concept and process.

My primary point is that F&D does not need mundane careers because those other books are out there and cover all that stuff.

No disagreement there at all.

Can't please everyone. If FFG had done a combined book, people would have complained that it was too focused or not broad enough. Or that this or that wasn't in it. Or that they had to wait for their special part until some expansion supplement that comes out two years later. Or any other multitude of complaints. Personally I think the system is better for their concept and process.

Absolutely true that you can't please everyone. That's why I characterize my preferences in that regard as merely preferences; I'm not saying that they did it wrong. I personally felt the game was incomplete without Jedi as playable PCs, but it's turned out great. I really like the system and the way the three books function together. I just feel like the game needs to be taken as a whole now that all three systems are out unless the GM wants to run something that purposefully excludes the other books (or portions thereof - I could easily see using only the expanded Force powers from F&D while disallowing the careers considering the time period).

If they had just said they were releasing three core books for the same system, each of which would be covering the three major archetypes and exploring all sorts of options within them , I think this issue would have been ameliorated (the current issue specifically regarding the lack of mundane careers in F&D anyway; I still would have considered EotE and AoR incomplete until all three books were available).

Which is pretty much what FFG have said they were/are doing from the beginning.

Yeah thats is exactly what FFG basically said from the beginning. By doing it this way we end up with far far more than if they tried to stuff it all in one book.