That's 1 if they shoot after you and 2. doesn't count the buddies who are all in arc doing 6-7 damage back.

The ship has at most 1 agi from Kenkirk the only way to avoid damage is not getting shot at all.

Run engine.

Did I see engine in any of these lists? Nope

then nope.

Engine. Run engine.

Seriously, avoid getting shot by running engine.

Is it ok to avoid getting shot by obliterating enemy ships?

It has a 3 straight green. I found it very useful for getting out of arcs.

Did I see engine in any of these lists? Nope

then nope.

Engine. Run engine.

Seriously, avoid getting shot by running engine.

For your consideration:

Admiral + VI + Mara Jade + Ysanne Isard + Engine Upgrade

Howlrunner

2x Academy Pilot

And since I know you love Space Cows:

Admiral + VI + Mara Jade + Ysanne Isard + Engine Upgrade

2x Omicron Group Pilot

Both come in at PS10 with EU to hunt down those annoying HLC Outriders. You will be seeing a lot of them in wave 5.

Did I see engine in any of these lists? Nope

then nope.

Engine. Run engine.

Seriously, avoid getting shot by running engine.

Then I don't get 4-5 dice. I they are dead they don't shoot.

How will you chase down PS9 Dash + Outrider + HLC, who will almost always be at range 3?

Dash's attacks vs your VT-49: 4 attack vs 0 defense

Your attacks: 4 attack vs 3 defense

If you put Marksmanship on Chinreau, can he change two focuses into crits at range 1-2?

Pair it with EI and you can TL + Marksman giving you very accurate shots at all ranges.

As I was looking at EPTs in my list builder, I thought about the same thing. I believe so.

Yes both could work but I'm not sure how often you will roll 2+ focus results to make use of both effects.

My math may be off, but not taking into account an opponent evading, at range 2 you cab expect .375 Foci(?) and at range 1 you can expect .5 Foci(?).

Again, my math could be way off.

EDIT: Already off. There's only 2 Focus symbols!

.375 at Range 2

.5 at Range 1

True. Probably overkill to run Marksmanship on Chinreau.

"Admiral + VI + Mara Jade + Ysanne Isard + Engine Upgrade

2x Omicron Group Pilot"

it's beautiful....

Did I see engine in any of these lists? Nope

then nope.

Engine. Run engine.

Seriously, avoid getting shot by running engine.

For your consideration:

Admiral + VI + Mara Jade + Ysanne Isard + Engine Upgrade

Howlrunner

2x Academy Pilot

And since I know you love Space Cows:

Admiral + VI + Mara Jade + Ysanne Isard + Engine Upgrade

2x Omicron Group Pilot

Both come in at PS10 with EU to hunt down those annoying HLC Outriders. You will be seeing a lot of them in wave 5.

Did I see engine in any of these lists? Nope

then nope.

Engine. Run engine.

Seriously, avoid getting shot by running engine.

Then I don't get 4-5 dice. I they are dead they don't shoot.

How will you chase down PS9 Dash + Outrider + HLC, who will almost always be at range 3?

Dash's attacks vs your VT-49: 4 attack vs 0 defense

Your attacks: 4 attack vs 3 defense

I'll be interested to see if it is that easy to keep Dash at R3. If it is, engine upgrade may not make enough of a difference if you're going before him.

Neither of these ships are out yet and we're already pushing people towards one type of build?

"Admiral + VI + Mara Jade + Ysanne Isard + Engine Upgrade

2x Omicron Group Pilot"

it's beautiful....

*giggles* one long ship in between two short ones...

They've been out for a couple of weeks since Gen Con.

It's not too hard to chase down Outriders especially with Large ships.

Vader + Gunner is incredibly brutal on the Decimator, especially Kenkirk.

Did I see engine in any of these lists? Nope

then nope.

Engine. Run engine.

Seriously, avoid getting shot by running engine.

For your consideration:

Admiral + VI + Mara Jade + Ysanne Isard + Engine Upgrade

Howlrunner

2x Academy Pilot

And since I know you love Space Cows:

Admiral + VI + Mara Jade + Ysanne Isard + Engine Upgrade

2x Omicron Group Pilot

Both come in at PS10 with EU to hunt down those annoying HLC Outriders. You will be seeing a lot of them in wave 5.

Did I see engine in any of these lists? Nope

then nope.

Engine. Run engine.

Seriously, avoid getting shot by running engine.

Then I don't get 4-5 dice. I they are dead they don't shoot.

How will you chase down PS9 Dash + Outrider + HLC, who will almost always be at range 3?

Dash's attacks vs your VT-49: 4 attack vs 0 defense

Your attacks: 4 attack vs 3 defense

I'll be interested to see if it is that easy to keep Dash at R3. If it is, engine upgrade may not make enough of a difference if you're going before him.

Neither of these ships are out yet and we're already pushing people towards one type of build?

Been out on Vassal for a while. The long and the short of the decimator is that it doesn't like concentrated fire and dies very quickly under it.

"Admiral + VI + Mara Jade + Ysanne Isard + Engine Upgrade

2x Omicron Group Pilot"

it's beautiful....

1. Shuttles do their thing. Advanced tactics required to pull off, asteroid placement, lane blocking. It flies differently than Dom's 3 shuttles, because you don't have the critical mass of 3 shuttles, just 2. You also lack FCS.
2. VT-49 gets out of arc, preferably getting in range 1.
3. Shoot stuff.
4. Mara gives stress. Range 1 ships can't K-turn to face you. And you're outside their arc. Who's in the lumbering ship now?
5. Repeat.

Particularly nasty against PS9 Dash + Outrider + HLC, which will be a thing. HLC Outrider stat efficiency is absolutely brutal, it is easily the most efficient turreted ship as long as it has a target.

How will you chase down PS9 Dash + Outrider + HLC, who will almost always be at range 3?

Dash's attacks vs your VT-49: 4 attack vs 0 defense

Your attacks: 4 attack vs 3 defense

I'll be interested to see if it is that easy to keep Dash at R3. If it is, engine upgrade may not make enough of a difference if you're going before him.

Neither of these ships are out yet and we're already pushing people towards one type of build?

If Dash has higher PS than you, then a good pilot will consistently be able to stay at range 2-3. Hence the PS10 bid on the Admiral.

Mathwing: HLC Outrider is VERY good on paper. Going from YT-1300 to Outrider + HLC is about the same increase in cost effectiveness as going from ORS to named YT-1300. If you can stay at range 2-3, it's even better.

Been out on Vassal for a while. The long and the short of the decimator is that it doesn't like concentrated fire and dies very quickly under it.

I think that is where Captain Oicunn with Daredevil comes into play. If you have slammed into an enemy ship then the opponent can no longer concentrate all fire into the Decimator. Dauntless lets you still perform your action and Mara Jade makes sure that most of the enemy list won't be able to K-turn behind the Decimator to pursue.

Been out on Vassal for a while. The long and the short of the decimator is that it doesn't like concentrated fire and dies very quickly under it.

I think that is where Captain Oicunn with Daredevil comes into play. If you have slammed into an enemy ship then the opponent can no longer concentrate all fire into the Decimator. Dauntless lets you still perform your action and Mara Jade makes sure that most of the enemy list won't be able to K-turn behind the Decimator to pursue.

I'm not saying that isn't effective but it also isn't difficult to avoid. I tend to believe the Decimator should be flown like the old Expert Handling Falcons. Get out of Arc is steps 1-3 and doing some damage is step 4. Eventually you'll win.

I'd like to see Oicunn is something like this:

Did I see engine in any of these lists? Nope

then nope.

Engine. Run engine.

Seriously, avoid getting shot by running engine.

For your consideration:

Admiral + VI + Mara Jade + Ysanne Isard + Engine Upgrade

Howlrunner

2x Academy Pilot

And since I know you love Space Cows:

Admiral + VI + Mara Jade + Ysanne Isard + Engine Upgrade

2x Omicron Group Pilot

Both come in at PS10 with EU to hunt down those annoying HLC Outriders. You will be seeing a lot of them in wave 5.

Did I see engine in any of these lists? Nope

then nope.

Engine. Run engine.

Seriously, avoid getting shot by running engine.

Then I don't get 4-5 dice. I they are dead they don't shoot.

How will you chase down PS9 Dash + Outrider + HLC, who will almost always be at range 3?

Dash's attacks vs your VT-49: 4 attack vs 0 defense

Your attacks: 4 attack vs 3 defense

I'll be interested to see if it is that easy to keep Dash at R3. If it is, engine upgrade may not make enough of a difference if you're going before him.

Neither of these ships are out yet and we're already pushing people towards one type of build?

Been out on Vassal for a while. The long and the short of the decimator is that it doesn't like concentrated fire and dies very quickly under it.

I realize that, but that doesn't really come close to the amount it will see consistent play once it's actually released.

Full disclosure is that I'm just tired of groupthink and seeing people knock down lists that have some potential (especially based heavily on mathwing). I mean, I appreciate that it has a place, but I'd think we'd rather encourage creativity so there's a larger variety of competitive lists rather than fewer.

Full disclosure is that I'm just tired of groupthink and seeing people knock down lists that have some potential (especially based heavily on mathwing). I mean, I appreciate that it has a place, but I'd think we'd rather encourage creativity so there's a larger variety of competitive lists rather than fewer.

I think this is primarily because of the underlying game balance being skewed away from many of the ships / pilots because of poor cost efficiency. MathWing or tactical analysis only exposes the underlying realities. For what it's worth, my Mathwing wave 4 predictions, from before wave 4 was released, have so far still held up.

Related, I also enjoy variety so am compiling a bunch of House Rules to give love to some of our less-used ships.

Mathwing is primarily involved with Jousting efficiency. Engine add very little to your jousting efficiency. It's actually a card that makes you want to avoid jousting altogether.

Mathwing is primarily involved with Jousting efficiency. Engine add very little to your jousting efficiency. It's actually a card that makes you want to avoid jousting altogether.

Engine Upgrade is in Mathwing 201, not 101.

Edit: In all seriousness though, I have never considered Engine Upgrade on large ships mathematically, since its not a standard action on any large base ship. I do have a weighting for it on small ships that seems to work well. We'll see when the StarViper comes how well the model holds up.

Full disclosure is that I'm just tired of groupthink and seeing people knock down lists that have some potential (especially based heavily on mathwing). I mean, I appreciate that it has a place, but I'd think we'd rather encourage creativity so there's a larger variety of competitive lists rather than fewer.

I think this is primarily because of the underlying game balance being skewed away from many of the ships / pilots because of poor cost efficiency. MathWing or tactical analysis only exposes the underlying realities. For what it's worth, my Mathwing wave 4 predictions, from before wave 4 was released, have so far still held up.

Related, I also enjoy variety so am compiling a bunch of House Rules to give love to some of our less-used ships.

I'd agree that your predictions have been very good with regard to the PS1/2 pilots, but they don't really tell the story of a whole ship type, largely because as pilot skill and abilities increase, the ship moves further away from relying on "jousting abilities" and other ship factors gain value. It's something I've wanted to delve into further but haven't had the time.

To bring it back to this thread, we have a couple of build theories going (EI+Expose vs EU) but I felt that there was a couple of comments here that treated one like it was a TIE advanced. IMO, it's one thing to point out a bad build/ship as bad (like the original build in this thread, which -- at least at first glance -- seemed to be self defeating) but another to try and take good builds builds a dismiss them because they're not thought to be "optimal."

Mathwing is primarily involved with Jousting efficiency. Engine add very little to your jousting efficiency. It's actually a card that makes you want to avoid jousting altogether.

Engine Upgrade is in Mathwing 201, not 101.

Edit: In all seriousness though, I have never considered Engine Upgrade on large ships mathematically, since its not a standard action on any large base ship. I do have a weighting for it on small ships that seems to work well. We'll see when the StarViper comes how well the model holds up.

Well the movement provided is a great deal larger with boost on large ships than on small ones. Even the nerfed barrel roll is a better roll than small ships.

Has anyone tried Mara Jade on the Decimator to see how that helps with arc dodging? That would still allow EI+Expose instead of takig engine. You guys may think EU is better and it may end up beings very useful tool of the Decomator but 4-5 dice was brutal. I did 4 damage to Wedge in one shot. I think the upside to Expose is pretty good.

I'd agree that your predictions have been very good with regard to the PS1/2 pilots, but they don't really tell the story of a whole ship type, largely because as pilot skill and abilities increase, the ship moves further away from relying on "jousting abilities" and other ship factors gain value. It's something I've wanted to delve into further but haven't had the time.

Yes, I only look at the basic generics without any pilot abilities. But I make exceptions for some things like Howlrunner. I will have to add Expose + E.I to the list. Once with the Admiral's soft focus, and once without. Admiral + Expose + E.I is going to have some massive damage output, he will be a gigantic glass cannon. I will report back when I run the numbers.

Well the movement provided is a great deal larger with boost on large ships than on small ones. Even the nerfed barrel roll is a better roll than small ships.

Yes, absolutely, especially with Engine Upgrade.

Has anyone tried Mara Jade on the Decimator to see how that helps with arc dodging? That would still allow EI+Expose instead of takig engine. You guys may think EU is better and it may end up beings very useful tool of the Decomator but 4-5 dice was brutal. I did 4 damage to Wedge in one shot. I think the upside to Expose is pretty good.

Yes, I have tried Mara Jade on the Decimator 5-6 times now. It absolutely helps with arc dodging but only on captain bumpy (Oicunn). If you are fearless enough to ram the Decimator into the enemy formation most of the ships won't be able to K-Turn behind you. One time I chased a shuttle always keeping it at range 1, not allowing it to turn do any of its usual red manuvers (but that is an extreme example).

One of the problems with the engine upgrade (EU) on the Decimator is that it doesn't have a K-Turn. This means that if you are close to a corner, it is very easy to predict the movement of the Decimator. A falcon near a corner can K-Turn or do a sharp turn and boost for some great arc dodging, the Decimator can only turn. While EU is fun, i don't think that we will see it on the imperial side in competitive lists.

Expose with the rear admiral is good, but at the end of the day its only 5 attack on a very very expensive ship. You have to have some way to protect an Expose Decimator for 3-5 turns so you can get a return on your investment, and it is a big target.

I will have to give Mara a try, I think it could be the missing piece to my puzzle.

I'm 1-4 against decimators so far on vassal. The games were all pretty close though, and 2 for sure if not more would have probably gone my way if my dice were better, especially my past game. My last 3 defensive rolls of the game got me 1 out of 11 evades, plus one additional evade from a focus.

Of all the upgrades I've seen on them I think expose + experimental interface is the most dangerous to face.

Surprisingly I saw vader on a 2 ship decimator plus phantom build. Seemed very counterintuitive to kill off half your ships at certain points, but I lost to it so I guess it worked?