TL:DR - Bind starts out reasonably strong, but becomes an inefficient power to use compared to the more efficient powers like harm/unleash, and it would be nice to see it more effectively be an action denial option or a reasonable/effective alternative to simply defeating opponents with overwhelming force.

I think that's your core problem, is namely you're trying to shoehorn Bind into being primarily a Force power that deals damage when in your own post you said that inflicting damage is a secondary aspect of the power. Bind is primarily about controlling the effectiveness of an enemy in combat, either by adding penalties (setback dice) or restricting what they can do (immobilized/staggered). In MMO terms, it's crowd control with a potential DPS option, as opposed to a pure DPS effect like Unleash that can optionally include a small bit of crowd control.

The strain damage occurs when the target takes an Action, but the wound damage occurs regardless of what the target does, and said wound damage bypasses the target's soak value. Bind is also cheaper in terms of XP cost than Heal/Harm to purchase both the basic power and most of the upgrades, and the needing Force Rating 2+ isn't that huge a detriment since the vast majority of PCs are going to want to increase their Force Rating anyway, simply for the chance to generate more Force Points no matter what powers they have.

TL:DR - Bind starts out reasonably strong, but becomes an inefficient power to use compared to the more efficient powers like harm/unleash, and it would be nice to see it more effectively be an action denial option or a reasonable/effective alternative to simply defeating opponents with overwhelming force.

I think that's your core problem, is namely you're trying to shoehorn Bind into being primarily a Force power that deals damage when in your own post you said that inflicting damage is a secondary aspect of the power. Bind is primarily about controlling the effectiveness of an enemy in combat, either by adding penalties (setback dice) or restricting what they can do (immobilized/staggered). In MMO terms, it's crowd control with a potential DPS option, as opposed to a pure DPS effect like Unleash that can optionally include a small bit of crowd control.

Notice how in the TL:DR I said I want Bind to be more attractive in it's intended roll as a power that controls. Because right now the control that it can affect is not nearly as good as the control that blasting enemies with other powers is (aka defeated enemies). I don't think it should deal more damage exactly, but it should be more useful. Because right now it plays second fiddle to Harm in terms of overall effectiveness, and considering it's much more iconic, that's a rotten shame.

The strain damage occurs when the target takes an Action, but the wound damage occurs regardless of what the target does, and said wound damage bypasses the target's soak value. Bind is also cheaper in terms of XP cost than Heal/Harm to purchase both the basic power and most of the upgrades...

Again, I feel like you think I'm saying something other than what I'm saying. but c'est la vie.

EDIT: if you go back and read what I've said in this thread, you'll notice that my primary concern with Harm is that it A.) ignores soak and b.) can recover wounds at a horrendous rate as well as damage enemies simultaneously. I only ever even once mentioned upping bind's actual damage, which was almost two months ago, and it was one of a couple suggestions. I realize you think I want Bind to be a high damage power, but I don't, it's just for all the reasons I've mentioned in this thread, Harm outshines Bind in almost every way. and that is simply undesirable to me and my perception of the movies, and cartoons.

Note that Unleash is a dark side power, while Bind doesn't have to be. And therein lies another tier of utility.

Note that Unleash is a dark side power, while Bind doesn't have to be. And therein lies another tier of utility.

That's a good point, and maybe my frustration with Harm is that it is possibly the darkest power (IMO) in general concept, but that High conflict is only reflected within the mastery upgrade. 10 conflict is a lot, but 1 conflict for using harm feels... meh.

If harm was made to give 2 conflict per use, and maybe increase the conflict from the r3c4 control upgrade, I think I would be much happier. Since heal can't be used by a dark side character, and the low barrier to entry in terms of FR 1 requirement, increased conflict for a good power would make its flippant use less common, and the (IMO) darkest of force powers would lead you down the dark side fastest.

With Harm, for most PCs you're already looking at a minimum of 2 Conflict per use.

1 Conflict for just using the power, and 1 Conflict for turning a Dark Side pip into a usable Force Point, given the default that the PCs are going to be using Light Side pips to generate their Force Points. And I'd say the GM is well within their rights to assign further Conflict if using Harm to inflict pain/injury outside of a life or death situation such as a combat encounter. Or perhaps even then if the PC had other options available to deal with the target aside from using the Force to rip their innards apart.

Dark Side PCs (for which it seems the design team consider to be an anomaly rather than a default state of play) won't be generating as much Conflict, but they also won't be generating as many Force Points on average, and have a reduced strain threshold for those times when they do want to convert those LS pips to usable Force Points to power a bigger effect by activating various upgrades they've purchased.

With Harm, for most PCs you're already looking at a minimum of 2 Conflict per use.

1 Conflict for just using the power, and 1 Conflict for turning a Dark Side pip into a usable Force Point, given the default that the PCs are going to be using Light Side pips to generate their Force Points...

Harm doesn't require dark side points to generate force points to activate.

I'm not as concerned about dark side PCs. conflict is not an obstacle/penalty for them, and despite the lower strain threshold the control upgrade allows the user to recover strain upon successful activation, so the -2 strain isn't as much of a handicap when recovering 6-10 strain per use.

And I'd say the GM is well within their rights to assign further Conflict if using Harm to inflict pain/injury outside of a life or death situation such as a combat encounter. Or perhaps even then if the PC had other options available to deal with the target aside from using the Force to rip their innards apart.

Agreed, but this is universally applicable for all actions and methods of inflicting physical harm, fear, or other negative burdens (such as stealing from them, framing them for crimes, etc.). So in the context of Harm, the power being a little more evilor than skeletor is what I was thinking about, not its specific application at the hands of a player.

That being said, sure, Harm is easily more conflict worthy much like terrify. but terrify has an additional penalty. I don't think it's outside the realm of in universe penalties that directly attacking someone's life essence is worthy of even more conflict than unleashing energy in an unnatural way, or choking some one with the force.

Additionally, this is a lot easier of a change to implement, if a change were to be implemented. Not saying it's the right or best idea, but it certainly does change one small aspect of the power that has a much larger consequence, and reinforces the idea that Harm is specifically dark side.

Did anyone else notice that Unleash is called out as being a ranged attack? So wouldn't any other talent or power that improves ranged attacks apply to Unleash?

Did anyone else notice that Unleash is called out as being a ranged attack? So wouldn't any other talent or power that improves ranged attacks apply to Unleash?

The *damage* is treated as a ranged attack....so any talent affecting the damage of your ranged attacks would apply, but I'm not things like Precise Aim or Sniper Shot, I think.

All it says is you make a ranged attack. Harm, Bind, and Move just say the target takes X wounds. If those other talents apply to Unleash, that would certainly change the nature of Unleash in comparison to the other powers. Might be worth asking the devs if this is an appropriate interpretation.

It's not quite a combat check, which is the main problem. It's simply an Average Discipline check. There's no range modifiers, and the wording is quite different from that of the Move: Hurl upgrade which is a combat check.

As the rules say, "The damage is resolved following the rules for ranged attacks..." So it would seem to be only concerned with the damage portion of it.

If it's not a combat check, then aiming is not possible, and nor does Adversary or a host of other talents and effects apply to the check.

Would be nice to get some clarification!

Went back and read the full description of Move and Unleash again. Neither actually say they are combat checks. Move says you make a Discipline check with a difficulty equal to the silhouette of the object being moved, and the damaged is treated like a ranged attack. Unleash is an Average Discipline check and the damage is resolved as for a ranged attack.

Now, Move does additionally specific that it uses all the rules for ranged attacks, such as ranged defense and aiming. So neither specify they are combat checks, both say they are resolved as ranged attacks, and one specifies that it can be used with effect like Aim. Is there any reason to rule out using other talents with them? That would give both a lot of extra oomph.

I thought it had been clarified, possibly on an Order 66 episode, that in regards to Move (and by extension Unleash) being treated as a ranged attack, that meant two things:

#1) Successes rolled on the Discipline check added to damage; otherwise there's not much point in using the "hurl objects" Control Upgrade for Move on a Silhouette 0 object on most NPC adversaries since the combat types tend to have a Soak Value of at least 4, if not higher.

#2) Any traits the target had that would apply against ranged attacks (such as ranged defense and talents like Adversary and Side Step) would be applicable. This bit was added during the EotE Beta due to complaints that using Move to attack meant the target had no means of defense according to the EotE Beta rulebook.

But since they don't use a combat skill, talents that specify a combat skill don't apply. I believe something like Aim is allowed, as the Move Control Upgrade for hurling objects says the Discipline check is treated as a ranged attack for purposes of both ranged defense and aiming (last sentence of the paragraph). Also get the feeling that it's not meant to be a combat check, and so talents like True Aim also wouldn't apply, but that's more to do with balance issues, particularly as the damage output of Move can rather quickly exceed the damage output of a blaster rifle fairly easily, particularly if there are plenty of Silhouette 2 objects around to be hurled.

Eh. That leads to some more rules issues. If Unleash and Move are not combat checks, does Side Step not apply to them, since it specifies that it upgrades ranged combat checks? Plus, even tho ranged defense is called out as applying to Move, Ranged and Melee defense also state they apply to combat checks on page 206 of EotE book and page 150 of the F&D beta book. Aim (F&D 144, EotE 201) also states it applies to combat checks.

All this boils down to a couple questions. 1) Are Move and Unleash ranged combat checks? 2) If they are not combat checks, are Aim and Ranged Defense applied as exceptions? 3) If they are exceptions, why are we making things more complicated?

I think you're making this a lot more complicated than it really needs to be mostly by getting hung up on exact wording, very much like the debacle last year over on the EotE forums about Pierce dealing automatic damage instead of reducing the target's Soak Value.

Anything that applies as a defense against ranged attacks is applied to the difficulty of the Discipline check when using Move to attack or the Unleash power. So yes, Side Step would apply since it applies to the difficulty of ranged attacks. So would Dodge, for the same reason, as would Sense's "increase difficultly" Control Upgrade, as both can be applied against ranged attacks. It's an exception to the general rule stated in the combat chapter, primarily as the combat chapter is focused on mundane forms of attack like melee weapons and blasters, with the Force chapter (particularly in AoR and EotE) being "tacked on" later in the book.

Simply put, this isn't 3rd Edition D&D where every bit of rules minutia is spelled out in exacting detail, or frankly even needs to be.

I agree with you that we don't need to get tied up in the minutia as players. However, we are also being asked to discuss the minutia as beta testers. And since this is a discussion about the mechanical differences between the various combat force powers, I think its important to note that while Harm and Bind can do a lot of damage, there is little that can supplement them because they are not really combat checks, they are straight effects. Move and Unleash on the other hand seem more like straight combat check, so there are lots of options that apply to them that do not apply to Bind and Harm. I think this brings their usefulness up considerably and bringing them overall into balance with Bind and Harm.

If this is not the intent, then that should be clarified while we are still in beta and changes can be made to the final product. It also means that Unleash at least might need some changes or clarifications as to its purpose.

Except with Move, it's already an established fact of the system as far back as the EotE core rulebook, and per a response from Sam Stewart to myself and a couple other folks that questioned the Week 8 change of the sidebar on page 197 about how many times basic powers and upgrades could be activated (in the book it's once, Week 8 Update changed it to multiple times unless it says otherwise), if it's an established part of the rules (such as the default in EotE and AoR being that powers and upgrades can be triggered multiple times), they're not going to change it or make things stand out from the rules in prior books unless absolutely necessary, such as adding the Conflict penalty when converting dark side pips to usable Force points to account for the new Morality mechanic (and was already alluded to in the Force chapter of both EotE and AoR).

This happened with the AoR Beta as well, with folks clamoring for some pretty substantial changes to starship combat, and the most we got was some additional tactical options for the bigger ships and a new trait (Massive) that makes those bigger ships-harder to trigger a crit on.

Im not really looking for a huge clarification. The books call it a ranged attack. I think it should be a ranged attack, with all the benefits and penalties that implies. I think saying "Defenses apply, but various bonuses beyond Aim do not" when that is nowhere in the book and is only in a podcast is just confusing.

I think the wording of Move can be left as is, and the same thing in Move should be added to Unleash. That ranged defenses, aim, and any other talents or effects that apply to Ranged Combat Checks apply to Unleash.

Ambiguity gone. With that clarification it would make Move and Unleash true ranged attack replacements, putting them in a different tactical role than Harm and Bind. When looked at with the potential for bonuses from outside the force power tree itself, it makes Unleash seem much less under-powered in comparison with Harm.

I think Dono might be going a bit too far with that point #2. A more simple approach is to treat Move: Hurl as a ranged attack in all respects.

[HK voice] Query: Where can one find the "ranged attack rules?"

Answer: Why, within the rules for performing combat checks![/HK voice]

Also, True Aim does, in fact, specify a "ranged attack." Matter of fact, the game doesn't really make a distinction between "attack" and "combat check." So I would allow the use of that talent, as well as Disorient, Quick Strike, and Precise Aim. You set yourself up like you're making a ranged attack, you form your dice pool like a combat check, you roll it, and then you resolve it, all the while using the combat check rules.

Unleash is also clear in that the damage uses the ranged attack rules; so Successes, Soak, and any talents that deal strictly with damage (Cunning Strike and that other one that's like it are the only I could find/think of with a quick browse) apply. It would be a. It would be a bit more simple if they had that wording that's at the end of the Move: Hurl upgrade. But as written, I don't think it's too confusing. You make the check as a Force power, and then the damage is treated as a ranged attack (so steps 3 and 6 of making a combat check apply). Advantage, Threat, Triumph, and Despair are spent for every check and so, barring special uses prescribed by the power's effects, they can be spent as normal (disarming a foe, recovering strain, losing the benefit of a previous maneuver, etc—so steps 4 & 5 apply also). The only thing you don't do with Unleash is steps 1 and 2 of making a combat check: the Force power rules take care of that for you.

Again, it'd be simpler to treat it the same as Move. So the addition of that little bit of text at the end would, IMO, be a welcome change that only really affects a very few talents that don't specify a certain combat skil or a "weapons" in their text.

I think it's worth pointing out that clear and concise applications of wording and terms does not equate to a 3e mentality. I think what it equates to is good writing. There are several games that are rules light, and manage to use pretty consistent terms, or even clarify their meaning if it's a special case. Rule's lawyer-ing rarely plays into it for me.

I'm not saying that the writing for these is bad, but terms are used inconsistently, and it causes confusion, especially for certain... important game mechanics.

So I think it's valid to ask if when using a force Powers (aka discipline check) as a ranged attack, does it become a combat check or not? as that affects the function of many things.

On topic:

The change to harm by moving the control upgrade answers a lot of my issues for how strong the power is. I still think the 1:1 return on damage to healing is too powerful, but I suppose any complaints for that have been submitted.

The change to the strength upgrades for unleash adding base damage helps there too somewhat (increasing the effectiveness of the burn upgrade).

For Bind, our group is focusing on what happens if the magnitude upgrades required less force to activate, and if the duration upgrade only sustained the immobilized (both at FR 3 and FR 2). Will be interesting to see what the power looks like in the end.