I'm noticing a severe difference between the damaging capability of the Harm force power and Unleash and Bind.

Harm has the lowest prerequisite force rating, and for only 2 force points can deal intellect plus medicine damage at short range, ignoring soak (control upgrade and one range upgrade). This easily outstrips Bind (which does have additional benefits of immobilizing the target), and also outstrips Unleash a power with much higher prerequisites and which also requires a check and does not ignore soak, and scales with strength upgrades at the same rate as harm but without the bonus damage from a control upgrade (although against minions and rivals the unleash control upgrade does provide reasonable damage by inflicting strain and it can later acquire the burn quality).

My immediate thoughts are to possibly not allow harm to ignore soak or only ignore soak from armor (though the latter choice is not very FFG, as it requires more record keeping and feels game-ier). Alternatively, allowing Bind strength upgrades to add damage on a "crush" would also bring the two powers closer in line (the other benefits of bind compensating for the damage). I don't believe unleash requires a power boost, just harm needs to be neutralized slightly, with a possible buff to bind.

Also, Harm's ability to recover or transfer wounds should possibly be reduced to half the wounds inflicted, as with magnitude upgrades and the basic level of damage output this can result in copious healing.

While I realize that harm only target's living things, there is rarely a shortage of living things around in a galaxy far far away, so this is unlikely to be a significant handicap on the power.

All of this has come up in our knight level quick sessions and I wondered has anyone else had experience with this disparity?

Alright, let's do some damage theory-crafting. Lets assume a character with maximum stat values, upgrades, and positive dice roll results just for the comparison of "maximum" capability. Obviously with these ridiculously inflated numbers, the results will not be very realisitic to what you might see in an actual game session. I use the word "maximum" in quotes because there could be factors I'm forgetting, possible interactions with talents, situational boost/setback dice, difficulty upgrades/downgrades, destiny point expendature, etc. There will undoubtedly be at least a mistake or two here. Apologies for walls of text, I may try to reformat them for easier reading at some point.

By spending 2 force points, Harm can do a "maximum" of 6 + 5 + 2 = 13 wounds to living target(s) that ignores soak. (assuming 6 Intellect, 5 ranks in Medicine, 2 Strength upgrades) If you spend 2 additional force points, Harm can affect up to 5 living targets at once. (Can activate multiple times for 2 additional force points each activation, affecting 4 additional living targets for each activation) With success on an opposed Medicine vs Resilience check, Harm can inflict one Critical Injury, with +10 per 2 advantage spent on the check, on ONLY ONE of his affected targets regardless of your number of Magnitude upgrades. Assuming the "maximum" possible result (Int 6, 5 Medicine, coming out to 5 proficiency dice, 1 ability die = 12 possible advantage results) that would end up as one Critical Injury with a "maximum" of + 60 to the roll. (assuming a target with no existing Critical Injuries) In addition it has the nice wound/strain healing capabilities. Harm requires Force Rating 1.

By spending 1 force point, Bind can do a "maximum" of 6 wounds to any (living and non-living) target(s) that ignores soak. (Lets assume Force Rank 3, so 3 Force Dice, and spending at least 1 Dark Force Point on the Force check) By spending 1 additional Force Point, whenever an affected target takes an action they suffer 6 strain. (assuming 6 Willpower) If you spend 2 additonal Force Points, Bind can affect up to 4 targets at once. (Can activate multiple times for 2 additional force points each activation, affecting 3 additional targets for each activation) By committing 2 Force Dice (after the power is successfully activated) you sustain the power from round to round, dealing 6 wounds per round, and 6 strain per action that affected targets take while the power is being sustained. By default the power immobilizes affected targets, with the capability to also disorient targets for 2 rounds. (which can be activated multiple times, increasing the number of rounds by 2 each time) With a successful Discipline vs Discipline check, Bind can inflict one Critical Injury, with +10 per Force Point spent on the check, with a "maximum" of + 60 to the roll. (assuming a target with no existing Critical Injuries) Unlike Harm, Bind does not specifically state that it can only cause a Critical Injury to one of your affected targets. Theoretically you could cause one Critically Injury to each affected target at once. (per round if Bind is being sustained) The lack of specifying that it can only Critically Injure one target could be intentional, or it could be in error. I'm going to assume it may very well be in error because not only is that maybe a bit too powerful, but I think you'd also have to slow the game down by making a Discipline vs Discipline check against each target individually to calculate the bonus to the Critical Injury roll for each individual target. Bind requires Force Rating 2.

By succeeding on an Average Discipline check and spending 2 Force Points, Unleash can do (base = Willpower) 6 wounds to any (living and non-living) target(s) that is reduced by soak. (assuming Willpower 6) Unlike Harm and Bind, the damage of Unleash is resolved following the rules for ranged attacks. This means Unleash is treated like a Combat check and that each uncancelled success on the Average Discipline check adds one wound to the damage total. So our damage "maximum" goes from (base) 6 wounds to 18 wounds that is reduced by soak. (Will 6, 5 Discipline, coming out to 5 proficiency dice, 1 ability die = 12 possible success results) By spending 1 additional Force Point we can add 3 successes to our Discipline check, so our damage goes from 18 wounds to 21 wounds reduced by soak. (from our 3 Strength upgrades) This can be activated multiple times, increasing successes (and therefor damage) by 3 wounds per 1 additional Force Point spent. Simply by spending no Light Force Points activating the ability, Unleash would gain burn 6, dealing 6 wounds (base damage) each round for 6 rounds. (assuming Willpower 6) Since the damage of Unleash is resolved using the rules for ranged attacks, the base power has a Critical Rating (of 4) by default. By spending 1 additional Force Point, this Critical Rating can be reduced by 1. (which can be activated multiple times, reducing the Critical Rating by 1 each time to a minimum of 1 Critical Rating) By spending 1 Force Point, Unleash can affect up to 3 targets. (Can activate multiple times for 1 additional force points each activation, affecting 2 additional targets for each activation) In addition, Unleash has ensnare and strain inflicting capabilities. Unleash requires Force Rating 3.

Phew... Alright, as I said there are (ridiculously unrealistic) assumptions being made and probably more than a few mistakes on my part.

It looks like Harm can indeed do good immediate wound damage that ignores soak and has the capabilities for some very strong healing to both wounds and strain in return.

Bind appears to do less immediate damage, but it can do damage to both wounds and strain at the same time that ignores soak, and it can be sustained by committing Force Dice, continuing to deal damage each round. Unless I'm mistaken (and the 'committing force dice' section seems to back this up), while sustaining Bind does effectively remove 2 from your Force Rating for the duration, it doesn't require any sort of action to keep it sustained on subsequent rounds. Meaning you can sustain Bind, dealing its damage per round, and also take other Actions (after the first round in which you activated Bind as an Action) such as attacking or using a different force power. The only apparent restriction is that you can't sustain two of the same ongoing effect at the same time. Also, on top of decent damage over time to both wounds and strain, Bind also offers some pretty powerful "crowd control" over your targets, allowing you to deprive them of actions, maneuvers, and granting them setback dice penalties to ALL of their checks. (via disorient) Bind can also be used against both living and non-living targets, unlike Harm.

Unleash seems like it can inflict some pretty powerful wound and strain damage and some useful "crowd control" by way of ensnare. Because of Unleash's damage being resolved by the ranged attack rules, it can get a very nice damage boost from uncancelled successes, even though the wound damage (only) is reduced by soak.

This is just my inital analysis. The powers are different and serve their individual purposes. At this point I don't necessarily think Harm is overpowered damage-wise. The healing it provides might be a little over the top though.

Edit: A few additions, error fixes, and clarifications.

My only comment on your "maximums" are thus:

In general: I feel your theory craft should have some basic boundaries that can be compared across powers. For instance, define will 6 discipline 5 FR 6. This will give you a better ability to budget you scenarios.

Harm strength upgrades can be applied multiple times. But you don't.

It is unclear how bind interacts with maintaining in terms of damage an crowd control (see the thread I have on that). Also, Bind only deals damage per force point, so the 6 damage you site is not really bound by any precept other than FR 3.

For unleash, the odds of acheiving those levels of un-cancelled successes are pretty minimal, as to basically never occur. I would say that you should restrict your theoretical maximums on success uncancelled by say the top of the second standard deviation. or perhaps the 90th percentile.

One other aspect of this theory craft is that xp cost factor in. I can acheive unleash in 160 xp, with a maximum will of 3 and a discipline of 1 (zabrak starting character, sage spec) at that point unleash has a high buy in with low return. add rank two and three of discipline and that is 185 xp.

Bind can be achieved for 80 xp (pathfinder spec), but the only additional thing that improves bind offensively is FR, making it's buy up very costly.the easiest buy up at that point is probably artisan or sage @100xp, which places it close to unleash buy-in.

Harm i can obtain for 15 xp (cerean, protector spec), and for 30 more it can potentially deal damage 4 at short range (healer or protector work). Add 70 xp and Harm is dealing 8 unsoakable. for 75 more, you can get FR 2 (which means better chance of activating the ranged component, and increasing the range multiple times), and a last 25 to pick up the dedication talent from protector, boosting intellect to 4. that's 185 xp.

So at this level (185 xp), we can compare bind, which can deal a max of 6 unsoakable damage at short, unleash which can deal 3 base plus successes (best case there is 6) for a total of 9 with soak applied, and harm, which could deal 9 unsoakable at long range (four force points, one to activate, 3 to add range).

With additional XP harm's damage begins to plateau some and with strength upgrades is only one less than unleash per FP spent, but then xp can be spent to recover all wound dealt as healing (which with magnitude is APPALING!! )

I guess my point is that as maximums go, unleash should be king, but Harm is very good for almost the entirety of the game, has no barrier to entry, and provides the most robust secondary effect (healing, as opposed to immobilize or ensnare). It is possibly too good as presented.

All of the powers were given the same boundaries, perhaps I wasn't clear enough on that. Every characteristic score was 6, every skill was 5, Force Rating was 3.

You're right, Harm strength rating can be applied multiple times. I didn't miss that in my thinking I simply neglected to mention it in the post, my mistake.

It's true that sustaining Bind isn't completely clear. With Bind it deals 1 wound ignoring soak per 1 Force Point that has overall been spent on the check. To be clear just in case we're not on the same page, these aren't extra Force Points spent just to fuel damage, this damage is a secondary effect of having spent any Force Points on the power at all, assuming at least 1 was a Dark Force Point. And yes, it's boundary is Force Rating 3, just like all the other examples. 3 Force Dice each rolling double dot results equaling 6 dots and thus 6 wound damage per round that it is sustained. Plus the 6 strain (from 6 Willpower Characteristic) every time the target performs an Action while Bind is sustained.

You're right about not factoring XP costs, that wasn't a factor in my initial analysis. Just "max" damage possible. I've never, nor am I now claiming that my results are practical, it was stated they were made with inflated unrealistic stats. Again, theoretical, not realistic, "maximum".

I don't necessarily agree that Unleash should be the king of maximum wound damage. It seems like Harm is built to first and foremost do good physical wound damage to people. Bind does decent damage to wound and strain over time with a good "crowd control" aspect. Unleash does more immediate good damage split between wound and strain with a decent "crowd control" aspect and a decent Burn damage over time aspect. I like that they seem to have separate roles.

Now, I will say that I think Harm's healing aspect is almost definitely too good as is. It's possible that Harm should also require 2 Force Rating like Bind.

This is somewhat off topic, but I feel like the Force power range upgrades across the board are a bit nuts. You could activate nearly every Force power from extreme range and that seems a little over the top to me.

I agree that perhaps harm should be FR 2+ as a prerequisite. That certainly would reduce many of my complaints with it. that and minimizing some of it's healing strength.

If bind continues to do damage over time as one of my players feels it should, then that also could go a long way to making that power more inline with the others. Being able to do 3-4 damage against a couple enemies and sustained for no "action" is a strong ability.

as written now, if I wanted to be an offensive terror as a force user I would select harm every time. and that's not good for power balance or character diversity.IMO at least.

Thinking about it some more... if sustaining Bind required that you spend an Action each round to sustain it, what would be the point of sustaining it? Why would anyone ever sustain it from round to round? They could simply "cast" a new Bind every round anyways without committing any Force dice and thus without lowering their Force Rank. I currently believe that sustaining Bind does not require an Action, the cost is simply that you've committed 2 Force Dice for the entire duration. (Although there is the optional side bar about GMs house-ruling that maintaining Bind and/or Move could cost strain per round based on size of the target or something if they wanted.)

After playing out these characters in two different groups (mine, and one another GM friend of mine runs), I've found that Harm is too good as presented.

We each designed three characters as above, with starting xp and 185 additional xp. the three characters are:

cerean protector (boost to 5 intellect with starting xp) - FR2 for 75 xp, 5 ranks of medicine (1 starting 4 more for 70 xp), dedication 25 xp (intellect 6), and the harm power (10 xp) with 5 xp left over.

Zabrak Sage (boost to 5 willpower and 2 discipline with starting xp) - FR 3 for 135 xp, Unleash for 20 xp control, strength and range upgrade for 30 xp.

Human hunter (boost to 4 willpower toughened, rapid recovery, and 30 xp of talents to FR) - FR2 (60 xp), Bind power 15xp, control, strength x2, range, magnitude, and duration upgrades (65xp), artisan spec, 15xp of talents toward FR.

2 other "normal characters were present, one twilek LS specialist, the other a mirialan "face" with influence and seek.

Starting out, what we found was that the Cerean was the most useful party mate, able to heal and deal the most damage in combat (with a successful activation of harm, the cerean dealt 11 unsoakable damage to an engaged target). Against minions this was less impressive, but because the power was more subtle than a lightsaber, he was rarely targeted by opponents until he had engaged them, making the range a non factor. We noticed that using either light/dark results to power heal/harm meant these power activations were never difficult at a critical moment (the bounty hunter at the end of an adventure didn't have a chance). Also, when facing an adversary 3 Nemisis, the weight of dice behind the cerean's medicne check made contested rolls fairly onesided, without some serious inflation of NPCs.

The Bind character oddly enough was the most versatile as a light side character. With the control and duration upgrades it was easy to consistently bind a group of minions or a rival, deal your will power in wounds any time they acted, and maintain the power indefinitely. She did use the darkside some, but most of that was incidental to simply activating the power du to her lower relative FR. In retrospect, this character was not as optimized as we thought, but it was easy to hold minions or a rival in a fight and aid others in combat.

The Unleash character was odd. average offensive attacks were effective, and often brutal to minions and rivals, as the additional strain inflicted with the control upgrade translated into wounds. the average attack netted about 2-3 successes, and 2-3 advantage, so often the unleash would deal 7 damage and 3 strain (taken as wounds) and more often then not would get a strength boost. This character also fell to the darkside the slowest, as the use of unleash provides conflict, but the power could often be activated without spending darkside points. and often this player would wait for the critical moment, protecting allies until the opportune strike presented itself.

As xp was added over a couple sessions (large amounts to see accelerated growth) we noticed the human and zabrak characters did catch up more to the cerean, but never really overtook him as the MVP of the party. Bind became a sort of oddity, as the player would once gaining FR3, delay spending dark side points or maintaining Bind until she got a full 6 pips showing (or 5). only then spending the dark points and maintaining the power to really plow stack the damage.

So far our experience has confirmed that Harm/heal is too powerful as written, overshadowing other powers (no one even wanted to use move any more. Ha). It starts out as a very strong power, easily within the grasp of low level characters, and is disproportionately strong and versatile, with essentially no limiting factors. even when the cerean lost access to heal by falling dark, the obscene ranks in medicine made him a capable and valuable medic for the group, and he had a talent or two that increased stim efficiency.

Of course this is anecdotal, but the trends mirrored some of my expectations, especially in my friends group (which I don't play in or have any part of).

As you said, it's anecdotal, and you do have a somewhat min-maxed scenario. But even still, I think there's something to this. I think heal/harm needs to be looked at.

While the Harm aspect is very useful for a character that doesn't care about going dark side, bear in mind that many of the upgrades either cost a lot of XP (the Control Upgrades are all 20 XP each, Strength Upgrades are 15 XP each) or cost more than a single Force point to trigger (Magnitude Upgrades). So while the basic power can be obtained by a FR 1 character, it's going to be expensive to upgrade that power over the long term, as you either focus all your XP into that power, leaving NO XP for other things (like improving talents or skills), or you spread your XP around and thus don't advance that quickly in the power.

While Bind isn't great as a direct damage power, it can be very effective enemy control, leaving a target rooted in place (very hand if they're a melee-based adversary and the party has a plethora of ranged attacks) and suffering from setback dice to their actions for one or more rounds, to say nothing of being able to maintain that lock-down. And with a few Magnitude Upgrades, you can potentially lock down multiple enemies for a total cost of 3 Force Points, possibly even dealing Wound and Strain damage to them (or if they're Minions or Rivals, serving up a double-healing of Wound damage).

I don't believe the issue lies with Harm as much as that unleash and bind aren't adequately set up to compete.

(everyone always jumps to the gun assuming that the power that's obviously stronger is unbalanced)

I believe that the issue is more unleash and bind not matching the potency of Harm.

Personally I think Unleash should have Willpower x2 as base damage, being that it still ignores soak. I think the way the attack check is written is odd as it should follow the rules for any kind of energy attack and just be written "ranged attack with default range of short" Wow.

Note that now with the reflect mechanic any kind of energy weapon that doesn't ignore soak is going to have a very difficult time hitting any kind of light saber wielding character. Many players or enemies that have unleash to the level to use it to it's potential will also find that their adversaries have high wound, high soak thresholds.

I personally don't like unleash as a "catch-all" for force-based energy attacks and defense. The problem is that there are many different very unique ways of attacking with the force and to put all of those mechanics plus healing and attacking in one power seems ridiculous to me.

Also I would like to point out that 2 pips for activation and 2 pips for range is pretty excessive, in my opinion. I can understand maybe for protect but not unleash.

Remember Soak for most characters that use it are going to have at least 4-6 soak and with reflect that'll be more like 7-9. The base damage is almost negated and many of these characters are also going to have wound thresholds between 18-30 before you even have a nice Unleash going.

Unleash can actually get to some pretty nasty levels of power. The control upgrade can inflict a ton of strain on a target (which to most minions and rivals might as well be wounds) and can make blocking this power very challanging (as the strain cost becomes prohibitive).

And I say Harm is over powered because it has these very low bars to entry. Now, if Harm didn't ignore soak, or had FR 2+ as a req, or required Light/dark pips specifically to fuel it's effects, I don't think I would mind as much. But as it stands, it's over all ability to lay out damage as a sheer killing tool is awesome, and is not really inline with any of the other damage dealing powers.

I think changing Harm to not ignore soak would go a long way to making it feel more balanced.

I don't think harm should ignore soak, since it is essentially a life-energy drain, not exactly an attack (energy or otherwise).

But I agree it is too powerful as it is.

I like the idea of requiring FR 2 to buy it.

And to make it not so easy to activate it, while also keeping it within the fluff of having a dark side and a light side version, Heal should be activated by using light side pips only, and Harm by spending dark pips.

The GM should adapt and use assassin droids if the player relies too much on Harm. Problem solved. Looking at the existing force powers an argument can be made to make most of them have an FR2 threshold (or at least some halves of the tree) as this would allow them to work more regularly, ie move, enhance (jumping tree), influence, etc...

That's not the point. It's not about a particular player abusing it in a particular way, but how the power relates to the other offensive powers. The barriers to entry are low, the damage scales nicely, it synergizes with a skill and has strength upgrades too. It can heal and injure at the same time, and ignores soak with large levels of damage, where with knight level play, a single use of harm can easily destroy a rival.

Sure, the GM can adjust and throw droids at the group, but eventually, for narrative reasons, what if you want to use a living opponent, as a mastermind or what have you? Sure would be nice to have a balanced power, so that the play style doesn't become one dimensional.

I know some people saw this coming, but I'm just dropping Harm. Heal is getting worked over in the back alley by burly guys right now as well...

I think the biggest offender here is the Control upgrade that lets you add ranks of Medicine. If it were just another Strength upgrade, then I don't think there would be a problem.

Alternatively, a Resilience check from the target that reduced damage per success would fix it as well.

Alternatively, a Resilience check from the target that reduced damage per success would fix it as well.

I like the idea of using Resilience and having the Harm aspect be an opposed check by default, since it's no longer "automatic damage." And rather than the attacker using Discipline, have them use Medicine instead. Thus, if the character is an expert healer, they're really going to know all the best ways of tearing you apart.

Probably should also include that damage is not increased by the number of successes rolled, and that a successful check on the attacker's part simply means that they deal their Intellect in damage (plus Medicine ranks with the Control Upgrade).

Yeah, my concern with making it always opposed (which I do like) is that now there is a special exception for a check that causes damage but is not improved by extra successes. That isn't a common thing at all, and I think it would cause a lot of confusion.

In my homebrew version of this power, I did have it set up medicine v resilience, as that always seemed the most logical.

Short answer, there are a lot of options to reign in the power to be more in line with the rest of the force powers. It's just a question of what is the option or combination of options that produce a balanced power that is still viable.

Alternatively, a Resilience check from the target that reduced damage per success would fix it as well.

I like the idea of using Resilience and having the Harm aspect be an opposed check by default, since it's no longer "automatic damage." And rather than the attacker using Discipline, have them use Medicine instead. Thus, if the character is an expert healer, they're really going to know all the best ways of tearing you apart.

Probably should also include that damage is not increased by the number of successes rolled, and that a successful check on the attacker's part simply means that they deal their Intellect in damage (plus Medicine ranks with the Control Upgrade).

I think having Medicine be the roll as well as allowing the Control upgrade that adds it in damage is double dipping a bit.

Maybe this:

1. Make Medicine vs Resilience be the roll, successes add to damage.

2. Change the Control upgrade that adds Medicine into a standard Strength upgrade.

That may be our fix.

I think I know what I would like to see change.

I would like to see the control mod that adds medicine to damage/healing be changed.

Instead, I would like the healing aspect to add one advantage per rank in medicine to the next medicine check that the character receives in the encounter, giving a good reason to synergize between the two skills, but also reducing the amount of healing provided by the power itself. This control mod has been bothering me, and I think it undercuts stims, and the importance of the strength upgrades and the relationship that a high FR should have with healing.

For Harm, same deal, except each rank should provide a threat on the target's next combat check. this is a much more interesting (to me) use of the power, and it is not such an obvious no brainer.

Also, as proposed, activating this control mod would require a force pip.

Thoughts?

My GM actually made the judgment to increase the required Force Rating of Heal to 3+. I personally would also increase the basic power to two pips to match.

Unleash has a lot of power potential sure, but it lacks in many ways. When maximized at 12+ force rating with 8+ Willpower (Using Stim Application can get you to an 8 Willpower, if your GM allows a Cybernetic improvement it's possible to get it to 9) You could potentially deal damage at a planetary scale, maybe even enough to damage a star fighter. You would however also want as many boost die as possible to try to undergo such a feat as well.

Yet at that same point, when dealing with Organics, you're better off using Harm. It's easier to do much more powerful critical injuries and even moreso without any Soak you're going to do pure damage to the target, possibly kill them outright, and easily heal yourself at the same time.

Honestly Harm is also more of a dark side power than Unleash in the Star Wars lore anyway, both its physical and spiritual impacts are far greater. When using the ability to heal wounds from Harm it is essentially a power known in Lore as "Drain Life" and by it's very nature Harm was believed to pervert both the user and the Force itself. The user fell to the dark side very quickly with such powers and often became much like a parasite, craving this dark power as an addiction.

Changes I would make:

Heal
Increase requirements to learn Heal to 2+ or 3+ Force Rating

Increase requirements to activate basic power of heal to 2 pips so it matches Protect/Unleash.

Harm:
Harm is honestly even more of a Dark Side power than Unleash. Harm is actually a power sometimes referred to as "Drain Life" in star wars lore and is not only a dark action, it perverts the force and its user by its very nature. It is often addicting to the user turning them into somewhat of a Force Vampire very quickly as well.

Harm should generate conflict automatically regardless of why the power is being used, I would say 5 conflict.

Unleash:

Reduce the initial critical rating to 3 instead of 4.

Remove the conflict from Unleash, Unleash doesn't need to generate any additional conflict than it already will. Most cruel acts from Unleash are going to use Dark Side points anyway which will generate enough conflict anyway, besides the act the user is committing.

In the Lore Lightning was forbidden from the jedi for these reasons:
Often lead to cruel acts and misuse (Such uses already generate conflict. Anytime the power is used for torture or burning)

Easily lead to turning to dark emotions to fuel it (Not required to use it sure, but most weak force users would and it was always tempting to increase it's power, similarly in the game many are going to use Dark Side points in order to make it potent enough to do anything.)

There was also the fact however, that a highly trained Force User could use a purely Light Side version of Lightning, Known as Emerald Lightning. Emerald Lightning could follow most all the other rules for Unleash but it wouldn't make sense for it to generate any extra conflict other than being misused or using dark side points.

So, with the Update this week, Unleash has come up in it's offensive potential. This brings it into the same general league as Harm in terms of raw damage, and their versatility is also reasonably similar (harm can drain wounds, while unleash can ensnare, burn, and inflict strain).

I still feel like Bind is lagging behind, and compared to Harm, is a really sub par power choice for an offensive or dark character. seeing as bind is significantly more iconic than harm, I think that's a dirty shame.

So, with the Update this week, Unleash has come up in it's offensive potential. This brings it into the same general league as Harm in terms of raw damage, and their versatility is also reasonably similar (harm can drain wounds, while unleash can ensnare, burn, and inflict strain).

I still feel like Bind is lagging behind, and compared to Harm, is a really sub par power choice for an offensive or dark character. seeing as bind is significantly more iconic than harm, I think that's a dirty shame.

Personally I think Unleash became a bit too good, but that's a different topic/discussion.

Regarding Bind, the basic power does two things: leaves the target immobilized and deals damage equal to the number of Force Points spent. Harm and Unleash's basic effects are simply "deal damage," so Bind not having as much straight-up damage potential makes sense. Add in Bind's Control Upgrade to inflict strain and the Strength Upgrade, and using even a single dark side point means the target is immobilized, disoriented, and suffering 3 strain and 3 wounds. Toss in the Mastery Upgrade and each FP spent to add to the critical injury check also causes more strain and wound damage, since it's a FP spent on the power check. Or heck, just the Magnitude Upgrade, which lets you increase the number of potential victims and still do even more damage to them.

So while Bind may not be a great damage-dealer up front, it's got the potential to be very sick in terms of damage if you've got enough things to spend those Force Points on.

Personally I think Unleash became a bit too good, but that's a different topic/discussion.

Agreed. I would have liked protect to remain the way it was (base damage reduction wise) and unleash have a static base damage. I think increasing will power as a gaming stat for damage is just a touch too meta for moi.

Regarding Bind, the basic power does two things: leaves the target immobilized and deals damage equal to the number of Force Points spent. Harm and Unleash's basic effects are simply "deal damage," so Bind not having as much straight-up damage potential makes sense.

Agreed. At the most basic effect, Bind is not a damaging power. Neither is influence or move or misdirect. But it's not the basic effects that concern me.

Add in Bind's Control Upgrade to inflict strain and the Strength Upgrade, and using even a single dark side point means the target is immobilized, disoriented, and suffering 3 strain and 3 wounds.

Incorrect. This only works if the target uses it's action for something. Now, the claim could be made that action denial is equivalent to defeating the target in the short term. But this means that to genuinely defeat the target, you would need to use bind twice, get the same results as one harm or one unleash (defeating the npc), and use two of your actions. Where as harm, or unleash, or even move could defeat the target in one action and then who cares if the target was or was not immobilized, disoriented, and taking a penalty to their actions.

Toss in the Mastery Upgrade and each FP spent to add to the critical injury check also causes more strain and wound damage, since it's a FP spent on the power check.

Yes, but with a caveat. Strength upgrades for harm and for unleash have a higher efficiency. Harm is 2:1 and unleash is 3:1. So for every fp spent genuinely increasing damage with harm you get more out of it. And you can heal that damage that is inflcited. So if you spend 2 fp making harm deal damage (assuming intellect 3 and medicine 4, reasonable if you have mastery) that is the equivalent of 9 fp spent on bind. and with that many extra fp I'm sure harm can increase magnitude and heal the user/others and inflict critical hits as well.

Unleash has even more remarkable efficiency, with a 3:1 return on fp, and the mastery also allows incredible potential for critical hits.

Or heck, just the Magnitude Upgrade, which lets you increase the number of potential victims and still do even more damage to them.

Magnitude does make Bind shine, but the superior return from Harm and unleash strength upgrades makes the magnitude option a wash for Bind, as Harm and unleash can deal the same damage and crits across multiple foes as well as bind (though with binds mastery upgrade, it will have the BEST criticals)

So while Bind may not be a great damage-dealer up front, it's got the potential to be very sick in terms of damage if you've got enough things to spend those Force Points on.

I think you and I have a different idea of what "sick" damage is.

I want to be clear, I don't think bind should necessarily deal MOAR damage, but the extra effects that it has are not competitive with the reduced damage that you take. The mastery upgrade helps a bit, but the inability to stagger is unfortunate as dark side (as I have never seen someone suffering bind in the films or cartoons to take an action). And to quote a forum poster that had a very convincing argument for why a single setback die is basically not a significant handicap:

...

And most people that have played this game for any length of time will tell you that a single setback die on an attack roll, especially once you're rolling three or more dice and at least half of them are Proficiency dice, isn't that much of a setback, since it's only got a 1 in 3 chance of resulting in a failure or a 1 in 3 chance of coming up with a Threat. Against a difficultly of 2 purple, that extra setback die isn't really going to amount to much...

I think that while disorient is nice, I'd rather defeat an opponent than make them uncomfortable.

And that comes to my real complaint for Bind. It just feels overshadowed by the rest of the powers. It's not that bind is bad at what it does, it's that other powers are better, and I'd rather Bind be interesting and effective, without reaching Saga territory where it gets too good.

I'd like to see Bind upgrade enemy checks, or increase the effect of disorient. Our group has talked about how bind could increase the penalty of disorient to two or even three setback (though that gets into fistfull of dice territory). or maybe make the strain inflicted by the control upgrade larger. I could see the final strength upgrade being replaced with a control upgrade that doubles the strain from the row 2 c4. Or maybe the strength upgrades could themselves increase the strain inflicted by that control upgrade.

Something that makes the action denial stronger, or increases it's efficiency in terms of actions. Again, without getting to saga levels, because man was force grip in saga the most annoying aspect of that whole game for me. not that I couldn't deal with it, but it was an elephant in every game.

TL:DR - Bind starts out reasonably strong, but becomes an inefficient power to use compared to the more efficient powers like harm/unleash, and it would be nice to see it more effectively be an action denial option or a reasonable/effective alternative to simply defeating opponents with overwhelming force.