I think it just comes down to player etiquette.

Having played in two regionals, I make it a habit to ask my opponent after he moves for his action if he does not do so immediately. "Are you going to focus?" "Are you going to push (the limit)?"

When it comes to dials, its simple- I tell my opponent I am committed to my dials. And simply wait for him to say the same.

I think these are questions you need to ask so everyone is clear on the state of the game. If you are hoping that someone is going to forget something, and for yourself to take advantage of it- that's not really playing at your best. You and your opponent should be helping each other to have a good game. If you are tired, then all the more you should be talking to your opponent about the rules and giving each other reminders.

Of course, good etiquette does not mean you give your opponent advice like "I think you should focus" or the like, but prompting them to make decisions.

Everyone agrees that its a premier event, and gameplay should be upheld to the highest, and that should indeed be the case. However, what is equally important is for etiquette to be upheld to that same level.

Win with respect, lose with dignity.

On a related note, is there a chance you would find the time to make a short battle report? I'm sure many of us are curious how a Phantom list slipped between so many Falcons!

I second this. The phantom, interceptor, and shuttle are the 3 ships I like to fly the most and I actually tried running a similar list the other night for fun. (I did abysmal though, I misjudged where corran was going to be so he was out of arc on whisper with a range 1 shot and fel got 1 shotted at range 3 with stealth device against hlc b-wing all on round 2) I would be really interested in hearing about your strategy in general as well as in regards to the lists you flew against.

The game is between two players, and the TO. That's it.

Congrats on your well deserved win.

Honestly most of the criticism has an undercurrent of whining to it. Guess people are mad that they didn't get to go, or didn't make it as far as you two did.

Especially knowing that you deliberately took a weaker action when he started moving Chewie too soon. I would get why people were mad if you had taken advantage of his generosity and then pounced on his own error, but you saw him make a mistake not unlike your own and proceeded to be classy about it. We could nitpick about which mistake was more important, but honestly it doesn't matter and as said before it was up to you and your opponent alone to decide how to settle it. You earned that trophy through skill and sportsmanship, and you deserve to be proud of it.

Of course, good etiquette does not mean you give your opponent advice like "I think you should focus" or the like, but prompting them to make decisions.

But that's exactly what you're doing by saying "are you going to focus". Making the correct decision to use an important ability, even under stress/fatigue/etc, is part of being a good player. Deciding not to re-cloak/use your bonus focus token/etc is a legitimate strategy choice, and pointing out a mistake is giving them advice about how bad their current choice is.

And I strongly disagree with it being considered "good etiquitte" to stop your opponent from making mistakes. There should NOT be an obligation to do this.

Lighten up, you're being way too hard on yourself. Who cares what a spectator thought. Sounds like you and your opponent played well and like gentlemen.

And I strongly disagree with it being considered "good etiquitte" to stop your opponent from making mistakes. There should NOT be an obligation to do this.

There isn't, that's why it's called sportsmanship. You do it of your own accord, knowing that it could come back to bite you; but some people will do it anyway because it's how they want to play the game.

There is no expectation that you, or your opponent, has to play this way.

That said, you are not being a #!(& if you don't allow your opponent to correct his mistake, but at least respect that a player has the right to allow their opponent do so if they want to, even at this level.

IMO this is what defines the fly casual philosophy.

Rick,

I started playing X-Wing at store games a few months ago. I was weary to dip my toe in, because in the past, when I had approached the tournament scene with other games, I was met by players who far outclassed me and were more interested in getting wins against me than welcoming me to the community.

This is a story that I think a lot of new X-Wing players could tell, but everyone at the store was very friendly. You were one of those people. It was obvious from the start that you gave a lot of thought to your lists, you dug in very deep to the strategies of X-Wing, but you were still an incredibly friendly guy, and you brought fun lists that you wanted to try out, not lists designed to take everyone out. You gave me hope that even at a high level, this might be a game where folks treat each other decently.

This year's NA Championship at GenCon was my first time playing outside of my local store. Every single person I played with had the same great attitude. I remember in one of my Friday games, someone flipped their dial without looking at it and proceeded to do the move he remembered putting on his dial. He was doing a 4 straight, but I saw that his dial was between 4-K and 1 straight. I sort of panicked and wanted to say something before he took up his template and moved on, so I nearly shouted "Hey!... your dial!". I felt like a **** right away. It was obvious in this situation that he wouldn't have meant to do either a 4-K or a 1 straight, his dial had simply slid around. I spent the next 30 seconds explaining that I understand and he should go ahead with his maneuver, which he did.

Last night, back at the local store, I played against a guy who had very few games under his belt. Halfway into the game, he was winning by a slight margin. A couple of times he made mistakes and asked to take them back. I didn't say no, but my body language clearly showed that I didn't enjoy saying "yes, please go back and kill by b-wing". Looking back at that this morning, I'm pretty embarrassed. I know there were times when I did to you what this guy did to me, and you were incredibly forgiving about it, not even making it an issue at all.

I share those stories just to say that you are my example of a player that can play at the highest levels and still has a great attitude. Fly Casual is something I read about all the time, and it's all well and good when people playing in a local league for virtually no prizes practice it, but I am so proud of our community that you and Jeff could play by the same principles at such a high level. You, Jeff, and so many other guys that I had the honor of playing with last weekend are examples of what make this game great, and I sincerely hope that this experience doesn't sour you to X-Wing because you and people like you are a far more important part of the game than the next wave of ships.

-Jeffrey Mason

First congratulations. Second forget about people who weren't in the match complaining about it. I think you both were good sports. Fly Casual.

I don't know you. But I'd be happy to play against you any day.

As far as I'm concerned, you have nothing to worry about.

Remember "Fly Casual" also means "Win Casual" and "Lose Casual."

I've lost more games than I've won, but that's because I'd rather have fun then stress out about the game.

That's my 0.02 credits ...

Of course, good etiquette does not mean you give your opponent advice like "I think you should focus" or the like, but prompting them to make decisions.

But that's exactly what you're doing by saying "are you going to focus". Making the correct decision to use an important ability, even under stress/fatigue/etc, is part of being a good player. Deciding not to re-cloak/use your bonus focus token/etc is a legitimate strategy choice, and pointing out a mistake is giving them advice about how bad their current choice is.

And I strongly disagree with it being considered "good etiquitte" to stop your opponent from making mistakes. There should NOT be an obligation to do this.

Good etiquette doesn't translate to an obligation, and I'm fairly certain you are well aware of that. Nobody is expecting you to let a guy off, and it's very good sportsmanship if you do for exactly that reason.

Good etiquette doesn't translate to an obligation, and I'm fairly certain you are well aware of that. Nobody is expecting you to let a guy off, and it's very good sportsmanship if you do for exactly that reason.

Of course it translates to an obligation because you're expected to play the game with good etiquitte and sportsmanship. If you include "letting your opponent break the rules to fix their mistakes" in those concepts then you're implying that it is part of being a fair and polite player and anyone who doesn't allow it is lacking in etiquitte/sportsmanship.

Good etiquette doesn't translate to an obligation, and I'm fairly certain you are well aware of that. Nobody is expecting you to let a guy off, and it's very good sportsmanship if you do for exactly that reason.

Of course it translates to an obligation because you're expected to play the game with good etiquitte and sportsmanship. If you include "letting your opponent break the rules to fix their mistakes" in those concepts then you're implying that it is part of being a fair and polite player and anyone who doesn't allow it is lacking in etiquitte/sportsmanship.

The obligation only applies if you desire the accolade good sport, or casual flier. If you want those terms to apply to you, then yes you have to earn them. If you do not desire those accolades there is no onus on you, at all, to achieve them and it is disingenuous to imply otherwise.

Wow. Don't even know where to start here, so I'm just going to brain dump so sorry if it comes across as rambling.

Do you know what my biggest fear was going into the final game? It wasn't losing or even flying a ship off the board or doing something as embarrassing as that. It was doing something that would cause a controversy...

[snip]

Thanks for taking the time to read my long post.

-Rick

My understanding is that both players are under an obligation to ensure that both players are doing the things they are intending to do. This obligation can be abused, and so I'm not sure I'd let someone change a dial, but the obligation exists to ensure that this game rewards people who think well and understand the game at a high level.

The fact that this obligation drives off people who cannot bring themselves to "fly casual" is a bonus.

You made a silly, mechanical, error. It was obvious to everyone what you had intended to do. Therefore your opponent was obligated to allow you to do it. Had there been a serious question about what you had wanted to do, that might be another conversation.

In the mid 1980s, a High School student found an arithmetic error in Newton's Principia Mathematica. Humanity did not decide that gravity did not exist, or that Leibnitz would somehow retroactively be the sole inventor of calculous. Humanity fixed the silly error and moved on.

Same as your opponent allowed you to do. Same as the rest of us are obligated to do. Anyone who can't live up to that obligation needs to play at home with friends, and not interfere with the game the rest of us enjoy.

TL;DR: GG WP!

Wow. Don't even know where to start here, so I'm just going to brain dump so sorry if it comes across as rambling.

Do you know what my biggest fear was going into the final game? It wasn't losing or even flying a ship off the board or doing something as embarrassing as that. It was doing something that would cause a controversy...

[snip]

Thanks for taking the time to read my long post.

-Rick

My understanding is that both players are under an obligation to ensure that both players are doing the things they are intending to do. This obligation can be abused, and so I'm not sure I'd let someone change a dial, but the obligation exists to ensure that this game rewards people who think well and understand the game at a high level.

The fact that this obligation drives off people who cannot bring themselves to "fly casual" is a bonus.

You made a silly, mechanical, error. It was obvious to everyone what you had intended to do. Therefore your opponent was obligated to allow you to do it. Had there been a serious question about what you had wanted to do, that might be another conversation.

In the mid 1980s, a High School student found an arithmetic error in Newton's Principia Mathematica. Humanity did not decide that gravity did not exist, or that Leibnitz would somehow retroactively be the sole inventor of calculous. Humanity fixed the silly error and moved on.

Same as your opponent allowed you to do. Same as the rest of us are obligated to do. Anyone who can't live up to that obligation needs to play at home with friends, and not interfere with the game the rest of us enjoy.

TL;DR: GG WP!

Uh, no.

Enough of this self-congratulatory back patting; what I want to know is, how do you Yanks feel about a Canadian winning your National tournament?

Wow. Don't even know where to start here, so I'm just going to brain dump so sorry if it comes across as rambling.

Do you know what my biggest fear was going into the final game? It wasn't losing or even flying a ship off the board or doing something as embarrassing as that. It was doing something that would cause a controversy...

[snip]

Thanks for taking the time to read my long post.

-Rick

My understanding is that both players are under an obligation to ensure that both players are doing the things they are intending to do. This obligation can be abused, and so I'm not sure I'd let someone change a dial, but the obligation exists to ensure that this game rewards people who think well and understand the game at a high level.

The fact that this obligation drives off people who cannot bring themselves to "fly casual" is a bonus.

You made a silly, mechanical, error. It was obvious to everyone what you had intended to do. Therefore your opponent was obligated to allow you to do it. Had there been a serious question about what you had wanted to do, that might be another conversation.

In the mid 1980s, a High School student found an arithmetic error in Newton's Principia Mathematica. Humanity did not decide that gravity did not exist, or that Leibnitz would somehow retroactively be the sole inventor of calculous. Humanity fixed the silly error and moved on.

Same as your opponent allowed you to do. Same as the rest of us are obligated to do. Anyone who can't live up to that obligation needs to play at home with friends, and not interfere with the game the rest of us enjoy.

TL;DR: GG WP!

Uh, no.

Enough of this self-congratulatory back patting; what I want to know is, how do you Yanks feel about a Canadian winning your National tournament?

Where exactly is this Canadia? I've never heard of it. Do you have to go through a wardrobe to get there?

Uh, no.

Enough of this self-congratulatory back patting; what I want to know is, how do you Yanks feel about a Canadian winning your National tournament?

And, of course, poor Québec having that brief stint of being part of France before President Hancock purchased her- along with Louisiana, to help France finance Napoleon's Imperial War.

Good etiquette doesn't translate to an obligation, and I'm fairly certain you are well aware of that. Nobody is expecting you to let a guy off, and it's very good sportsmanship if you do for exactly that reason.

Of course it translates to an obligation because you're expected to play the game with good etiquitte and sportsmanship. If you include "letting your opponent break the rules to fix their mistakes" in those concepts then you're implying that it is part of being a fair and polite player and anyone who doesn't allow it is lacking in etiquitte/sportsmanship.

This is not about breaking the rules, the tournament rules specify:

Players are expected to play optimally, remembering to perform actions and

Bravo, gentlemen. Well played!

#FlyCasual

Good etiquette doesn't translate to an obligation, and I'm fairly certain you are well aware of that. Nobody is expecting you to let a guy off, and it's very good sportsmanship if you do for exactly that reason.

Of course it translates to an obligation because you're expected to play the game with good etiquitte and sportsmanship. If you include "letting your opponent break the rules to fix their mistakes" in those concepts then you're implying that it is part of being a fair and polite player and anyone who doesn't allow it is lacking in etiquitte/sportsmanship.

This is not about breaking the rules, the tournament rules specify:

Players are expected to play optimally, remembering to perform actions and

use card effects when indicated. If a player forgets to use an effect during

the timing specified by that effect, he cannot retroactively use it without the

consent of his opponent.

So it's spelled out in the tournament rules that this is appropriate.

Why don't you just do what you think is right at your games with your opponents, and let everyone else do the same?

It's really that simple.

This. Just this.

Wow. Don't even know where to start here, so I'm just going to brain dump so sorry if it comes across as rambling.

Do you know what my biggest fear was going into the final game? It wasn't losing or even flying a ship off the board or doing something as embarrassing as that. It was doing something that would cause a controversy...

[snip]

Thanks for taking the time to read my long post.

-Rick

My understanding is that both players are under an obligation to ensure that both players are doing the things they are intending to do. This obligation can be abused, and so I'm not sure I'd let someone change a dial, but the obligation exists to ensure that this game rewards people who think well and understand the game at a high level.

The fact that this obligation drives off people who cannot bring themselves to "fly casual" is a bonus.

You made a silly, mechanical, error. It was obvious to everyone what you had intended to do. Therefore your opponent was obligated to allow you to do it. Had there been a serious question about what you had wanted to do, that might be another conversation.

In the mid 1980s, a High School student found an arithmetic error in Newton's Principia Mathematica. Humanity did not decide that gravity did not exist, or that Leibnitz would somehow retroactively be the sole inventor of calculous. Humanity fixed the silly error and moved on.

Same as your opponent allowed you to do. Same as the rest of us are obligated to do. Anyone who can't live up to that obligation needs to play at home with friends, and not interfere with the game the rest of us enjoy.

TL;DR: GG WP!

Uh, no.

Enough of this self-congratulatory back patting; what I want to know is, how do you Yanks feel about a Canadian winning your National tournament?

I'll have to double-check, but I'm pretty sure the Charter of Rights and Freedoms says we're only allowed to blatantly engage in patriotic trash talk when hockey is somehow involved.

And to be fair the Canadian won because the American was being a good sport about things, so it's not like this should turn into some kind of continental pissing contest. I'm all for defying Canadian stereotypes but maybe the "polite and friendly" one would best be one we live up to, hm?

ABOOT

I have been in that situation a zillion times in a zillion game systems. Well, more like 40 times in 12 game systems, but anyway...

If I had been across from you, I would have totally let you place whatever tokens. I do not ever want to win because someone forgot something of that nature. Sure, I want to kill a guy for a mistake, but a tactics mistake, not an admin one. I have always let my opponent correct such a thing, even in a huge game, even being the one to point it out. About the only exception is when the game has moved past a point where the right conditions can be created to fix the issue.

What an observer thinks of that, I would suggest, should not bother you. The game is between you, your opponent and the umpire. Some d-bag watching who gets upset at that to the point of saying something should go find another hobby and do it lurking in his mom's basement.

You are cool, man. At least by this long-time tourney player. I want to kill your whisper with a double force choke, not because we forgot a marker for something you would obviously do and I have not prevented.

J

Rick, you and your final opponent are exactly the type of people I want to play this game with every time. Don't sweat it -- congrats on your win, sir.

Why don't you just do what you think is right at your games with your opponents, and let everyone else do the same?

Because that's not what I'm objecting to. I have no problem with people voluntarily allowing their opponents to go back and change a bad decision. What I object to is this idea that you're guilty of poor sportsmanship or not "flying casual" unless you allow your opponent to do it.

My understanding is that both players are under an obligation to ensure that both players are doing the things they are intending to do.

And he intended to remain uncloaked after attacking. Recloaking with ACD is optional, and there are reasons not to do it. Making a bad decision is not the same thing as not doing what you are intending to do.

You made a silly, mechanical, error.

Deciding not to cloak is not a mechanical error, it's a mistake. A mechanical error would be something like moving multiple ships and saying "everyone focuses" or declaring that you will cloak but failing to place the token. In those cases intent is clear even if the procedures aren't quite correctly followed. That is completely different from making a bad decision that you wish you hadn't made once you realize how bad it was.

Anyone who can't live up to that obligation needs to play at home with friends, and not interfere with the game the rest of us enjoy.

No, people like you need to go play at home and stay out of tournaments. The tournament rules are very clear that you are not entitled to go back and fix a mistake. If you want to invent an obligation to allow it then you need to stay out of sanctioned tournaments.