I think I liked Messiah best myself. The Duncan arc was compelling (and let's be honest, who doesn't want to knock boots with hyper-sexual space nuns?) but nothing beats House Atreides' first triumphs on Arrakis.

And what he did with Paul after he won everything is nothing short of brilliant.

And the Tleilaxu epigram is in my mind often

Here lies a toppled god

His fall was not a small one

We did but build his pedestal

A narrow and a tall one

Which is applicable in so many situations in real life.

RANT

This topic just shows how silly the what's coming next posts are on this forum.

mentioning

1. EU ships

2. Third faction

3. Prequel ships

4. Scaling issues

brings on the rage and despite the scale being changed on the EPIC ships, EU ships all over the place you are still playing/professing to play the game.

The issue I had mentioned in another thread is people think they are voting on this forum and if they don't vent their ignorant opinions (either way) FFG are going to do something they don't want to happen.

Let me educate you THEY DON'T CARE about some silly post on the forum's and this as FFG's most successful game will be milked until the end of time until it stops being remotely interesting. That will include some very very stretched EU ships and I am sure at some point other factions and prequel ships they were never going to just say oh we did the iconic ships from the movies now we will stop making loads of money from our most successful game ever.

If it hadn't sold maybe we would have seen all the ships we have but it has and they WILL make money from it.

/RANT

Eh, I don't want to see a third faction. Because that would mean dividing up the 4-wave expansion releases (Possibly) between Rebels/Empire and pirates. And for the pirates to catch up it means sidelining the rebels and empire for some exotic faction I personally don't care anything for.

It's fine as long as the next few ships are Assault Gunboats and TIE Avengers- popular fighters with much demand from the community. But with the Decimator out they could turn out to be frankenstein disappointments from Star Wars Galaxies like the TIE Oppressor or the TIE Agressor. Un-elegant duds who were put together by unimaginative designers.

IF we're getting a star viper it could be from anything. Perhaps one of the first scenario packs put together with a campaign bundle and some individual ships? Guri and the Star Viper could be interesting ships that are rebel and imperial depending on the mission. Or they could be mercenaries that either side could purchase, and end up having bases for both sides. That sounds something more interesting than a third faction and without the potential of sidelining the main forces.

On top of that, they all fill roles already covered by other ships, mainly the defender, bomber and advanced. The only one that would really add something new is the Aggressor, with it's rear turret, which would be interesting. I think the TIE electronic warfare would be a good addition, adding some support and carnor jax style de-buffing abilities, but it's basically just a bomber with a frisby bolted to its roof and a terrible name.

I'd rather see a bunch of pirate/hutt ships I've never heard of than have the empire loose it's iconic feel by getting flooded with an endless series of goofy looking TIE variants from some outdated video games. At some point they should just stuck to Aces packs for the existing ships, some generic bomber pilots with EPTs and gamma stripes would be nice.

I'm glad he thinks it's okay to call people names, accidentally or otherwise, and then blithely blow them off instead of acting like an adult.

Interesting that "shmucks" caught your attention but not:

That's too bad if it's really going to happen, X-Wing was just starting to really pick up at my store.

Dude, what is your deal? This is great news!

maybe his deal is that he doesn't like you? Which is wise.

or:

Either you're amazingly stupid or really high on drugs, I'm not sure which.

Ahh, the delightful hypocrisy on these boards.

Lets all just be glad that WonderWaaagh has taken it upon himself to "police" only these boards rather than try to impose his brand mature and adult justice in the real world. Slander is toootally cool if you agree with him, and ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE if you don't.

OT: I think this demonstrates a really strong chance the space viper will be coming out, but I don't necessarily think that means a 3rd faction. Considering the Black Sun was allied with the Imperials (even if only temporarily and shakily) during the Shadows of the Empire, I don't think it's a stretch to assume it could be an Imperial Ship here.

I guess re-hashing a topic that was just starting to move on makes you less of a hypocrite, eh? Well, you sure showed me! Now, if only I was smart enough to figure out the difference between slander, libel, and a simple insult. Hmm...

Like the old saying don't fix what's not broken.

That particular saying is for Luddites. Horses were not broke, cars are still better. Propellers were not broke, jets are still better. Steam engines are not broke, diesels are still better. Model miniature special effects are not broke, computer graphics still make effects shots better.

A better saying is if you can improve on what we already have do it. Progress kicks ass.

Except of course that isn't what the expression means. Don't fiddle with something that is work, it doesn't mean don't replace it.

Also on the picture. It is clearly a photoshop jobbie, as the (Unreleased) header is missing and is replaced by the StarViper pack bit.

So nothing to see here and please move on.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/StarViper-class_attack_platform

Crazy looking ship!

so does this mean THIRD FACTION will be real!?!

Starviper? Probably Imperial.

Let me educate you THEY DON'T CARE about some silly post on the forum's and this as FFG's most successful game will be milked until the end of time until it stops being remotely interesting.

FFG's designers are as much Star Wars nerds as any of us and it shows in their work. Did you know, for example, that they didn't make up the term Koiogran turn? It's from The Last Command.

dat som serious research

It's a two player game! I don't understand the point of a third faction at all. If it's just to expand the game, then why not just have those expansions directly in the hands of the existing two factions? Three factions doesn't give more options, it just restricts them. In a two player game, entire sets of ships and upgrades are guaranteed to be excluded from consideration. Why would anybody want that? Count me in as an opponent to this idea...

That's too bad if it's really going to happen, X-Wing was just starting to really pick up at my store.

Dude, what is your deal? This is great news!

Waagh is probably the most vocal opponent of a third faction here. He thinks a third faction will lead to imbalance, based primarily off his experience with other games like the GW stuff, and follows the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" philosophy. I see his point, but personally I think continually building up the current factions is more likely to create imbalance and/or power creep, ffg running out of design space, and dredging up every possible bottom of the barrel ship for those factions. But neither of us can really know until it happens, so it's a fairly pointly discussion.

I wouldn't underestimate FFG in the game design department. The problem with a 3rd faction isn't with design but with releasing enough ships to get it up to speed without sidelining the Rebels and Imperials.

G'night! Sometimes it's just best to step away from the keyboard, I must have trashed thousands of posts in my lifetime before posting them.

I suppose that beats trashing your keyboard.

I wouldn't underestimate FFG in the game design department. The problem with a 3rd faction isn't with design but with releasing enough ships to get it up to speed without sidelining the Rebels and Imperials.

not if they allow currently released ships into their list have certain ships two factions can share. This would even work with Imperial/Rebel CR90 is an obvious example

YT1300, bounty hunter, YT2400, head hunter for Criminal faction

It's a two player game! I don't understand the point of a third faction at all. If it's just to expand the game, then why not just have those expansions directly in the hands of the existing two factions? Three factions doesn't give more options, it just restricts them. In a two player game, entire sets of ships and upgrades are guaranteed to be excluded from consideration. Why would anybody want that? Count me in as an opponent to this idea...

Actually, it could do the opposite and actually open up design space. Every ship that comes out for Rebels and Imps has to take into consideration all existing ship abilities within those two factions. For example every new Imperial ship and ability has to take Howlrunner into account. A new faction would be starting from scratch and the only constraints they would have would be existing upgrade cards. Further if they offer a different playstyle than Rebels or Imperials, they can offer an entirely new gamesplay experience and challenege to overcome.

"Completely different playstyle"... Petroglyph tried that with the Zann Consortium.

Was being obsessed last night and drawing up some epic plans. Saw this. Made my eyes bug out. FFG website was completely down last night. Still kinda slow today.

<a href="http://tinypic.com?ref=2ecosax" target="_blank"><img src="http://i57.tinypic.com/2ecosax.png" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic"></a>

What program is this?

"Completely different playstyle"... Petroglyph tried that with the Zann Consortium.

He was saying it is less meta checking to introduce new factions than add new ships to old factions

Also XWMG != EaW

Well, first off, for someone speaking about how some topics always bring out the rage, yours is the most filled with rage and frustration post in this topic. And if you think that a company doesn't make full use of all forms of input they can get to see what they can do with their product, you yourself need some educating. We know for a fact that at least one playtester frequents tHis forum and if you think he doesn't take what he sees here into account when testing...

All else aside, I think the odds are that if we're getting an Outrider, we're getting a Virago fairly soon.

Well, first off, for someone speaking about how some topics always bring out the rage, yours is the most filled with rage and frustration post in this topic. And if you think that a company doesn't make full use of all forms of input they can get to see what they can do with their product, you yourself need some educating. We know for a fact that at least one playtester frequents tHis forum and if you think he doesn't take what he sees here into account when testing...

Firstly as I have said before forums are a poor source of user info on player habits, it would take millions of well trained staff months to read in all the data from forum that's why surveys have predefined questions in them with answers that fit into catergories.

Second A playtester will not say hey I think this third faction sucks lets ditch all the work we have done he play tests he isn't a designer.

Third they will always overplay the forums because they want it to be healthy (that doesn't mean they will do what they want they just want us all to get each other excited)

Fourth I'm not the one raging when someone even suggests the possibility

All else aside, I think the odds are that if we're getting an Outrider, we're getting a Virago fairly soon.

I'd agree. Granted we DID have the Outrider in the Special Edition of Episode 4, so it WAS on screen.... but it came straight from the Shadows of the Empire book - so it is quite reasonable to conclude that other iconics like Prince Xizor will eventually make a showing.

What remains to be seen, is if Xizor (or any Starviper) will be Imperial, or if the Black Sun will be a new faction, or something else... because you know... a FACTION isn't always a FACTION. Anyone remember that old Decipher CCG for Star Trek? They had NON-Aligned ships and crew. You could fly them by themselves, or pair them with an existing faction. I wouldn't mind seeing something like that for this game.

I wouldn't underestimate FFG in the game design department. The problem with a 3rd faction isn't with design but with releasing enough ships to get it up to speed without sidelining the Rebels and Imperials.

Unless they make a third faction which can be used by either faction, such as Zuckuss and other smugglers and bountyhunters and scum.

I can't imagine why they wouldn't want the StarViper in the game. It's a really cool ship and it fits very well into the theme. Whether it will fit as Imperial or as criminal scum doesn't matter much to me. I'd like a third faction, but I'm not against things continuing as they have, either.

In other words, I don't care how they bring the handsome scaly guy in, so long as they do.

If the StarViper is Imperial though (ie, Xizor is Imperial) that's a pretty solid nail in Black Sun faction's coffin.

Ok. Geordan reads and posts on these boards, and he is usually pretty good about responding to any thread title that references his squad builder. But he hasn't chimed in here yet. Does that tell us something?

If I controlled a squad builder, I would do something like that just to mess with people. Wait for someone to post it, then immediately remove it. Bonus points if you use a ship that appeared in artwork. I would say "do Coralskipper Expansion" next, but even I am not evil enough to imply Vong.

Doesn't show up in the quote but anybody else notice that voidstate liked this? Hey now...

If FFG produced the same pirate, bounty hunter, and smuggler ships you want, but in in the existing Rebel and Imperial factions rather than a third faction, as they already have, 1) would you be disappointed, and 2) in what ways might this be inferior to releasing the same exact ships in a third faction instead?

I am concerned about diluting the iconic flavor of the two main factions. If too many fringer ships get released then the factions risk no longer feeling like rebels and imperials.

If they stick with maintaining the appropriate feel (TIE variants for empire, for example), then they are going to REALLY be scraping the bottom of barrel for ship types because they will be limiting themselves, and then the fringer ships might not get made. But if they don't limit themselves in that way, then both factions risk becoming fringer factions by default.

In my mind, a third faction gives them a place to put the oddball ships that a lot of people want to see while actually MAINTAINING the iconic feel of rebel vs imperial.

Can I adopt the stance of two PRIMARY factions? Keep it Rebel v Imp. BUT make a third faction -- perhaps 'source' is more appropriate -- for such 'oddball ships.' Stock it with neutrals, civvies, shared craft, generics, and some uniques. To prevent it from becoming a whole new faction, say only 50 points of a standard list can be made up of these factionless or third source ships. They could be terrain, scenario tools, and even allow for a third player just playing out the neutral force. (Star Tours anyone? jk)