You're making the fix way too hard. The solution is just to change "that maneuver is" to "all maneuvers are"

The problem is that FFG hates making text changes to cards. They're FAR more likely to make some completely baseless left field ruling that makes no sense.

I think Vanor's mostly playing with his crystal ball here - not reading or interpreting the card, but guessing at what they'll do to fix it when they realize how crazy the combo is.

It's not like they've never done it though. Daredevil comes to mind... also Expert Handling.

I haven't seen them do that for anything aside from maybe AS + cloak to cloak and decloak

That wasn't a change, it just made it explicit for people who didn't understand the "once per opportunity" thing. You could never cloak and immediately decloak, people just wanted to rules lawyer their way into something overpowered.

Not that this really matters since the card hasn't been published yet. Changing it to say "all maneuvers are red this turn" instead of "that maneuver is red" wouldn't be errata, it would just be a preview article that wasn't quite accurate.

That wasn't a change, it just made it explicit for people who didn't understand the "once per opportunity" thing. You could never cloak and immediately decloak, people just wanted to rules lawyer their way into something overpowered.

No. Once per opportunity meant you couldn't decloak twice in sequence. It had no effect on cloaking and then immediately decloaking. In other words, it stopped decloak-cloak-decloak, but had nothing to say on cloak-decloak.

Sure, but modifying the core rules can have a lot more unintended consequences. I haven't seen them do that for anything aside from maybe AS + cloak to cloak and decloak. The FAQ has managed vague or confusing terminology. There is nothing vague about this. That would be an errata change.

They've fixed a few lately, but there are still several rulings which blatantly contradict the rules as printed. I have no idea why they errata some and just rule others (or, in the case of things like Proximity Mines, do both)... but they very solidly do.

That wasn't a change, it just made it explicit for people who didn't understand the "once per opportunity" thing. You could never cloak and immediately decloak, people just wanted to rules lawyer their way into something overpowered.

Not that this really matters since the card hasn't been published yet. Changing it to say "all maneuvers are red this turn" instead of "that maneuver is red" wouldn't be errata, it would just be a preview article that wasn't quite accurate.

It hasn't been shipped yet. They might have thousands of the cards printed already, awaiting the almighty boat. Let's think back just a few months: do you really believe they didn't catch the Leia misprint before packing them away in the Tantive box?

No. Once per opportunity meant you couldn't decloak twice in sequence. It had no effect on cloaking and then immediately decloaking. In other words, it stopped decloak-cloak-decloak, but had nothing to say on cloak-decloak.

No, it didn't work because of the timing issue. If you use advanced sensors to cloak then you are no longer in the "immediately before you reveal your maneuver dial" opportunity, you've left that opportunity and started doing things that triggered at that point. And you can't declare the decloak before leaving the opportunity because you aren't cloaked yet. The argument for cloak-decloak was essentially "ok, I'm done with this opportunity and doing stuff, no wait, I want to go back and use that opportunity again".

Doesn't matter now.

No, it didn't work because of the timing issue. If you use advanced sensors to cloak then you are no longer in the "immediately before you reveal your maneuver dial" opportunity, you've left that opportunity and started doing things that triggered at that point. And you can't declare the decloak before leaving the opportunity because you aren't cloaked yet. The argument for cloak-decloak was essentially "ok, I'm done with this opportunity and doing stuff, no wait, I want to go back and use that opportunity again".

Uh, it's one effect from a single card per opportunity, not one effect period. Otherwise things like multiple Mercenary Copilots wouldn't work.

No, it didn't work because of the timing issue.

Make up your mind. Is it a timing issue, or a once per opportunity issue?

Bloody hell, you can't follow your own arguments, even when I quote them for you. How do you expect anyone else to?

Make up your mind. Is it a timing issue, or a once per opportunity issue?

Bloody hell, you can't follow your own arguments, even when I quote them for you. How do you expect anyone else to?

I suspect because he's the forum's most unsuccessful troll, intent on arguing points that nobody in their right mind could possibly believe, even him.

No, it didn't work because of the timing issue. If you use advanced sensors to cloak then you are no longer in the "immediately before you reveal your maneuver dial" opportunity, you've left that opportunity and started doing things that triggered at that point. And you can't declare the decloak before leaving the opportunity because you aren't cloaked yet. The argument for cloak-decloak was essentially "ok, I'm done with this opportunity and doing stuff, no wait, I want to go back and use that opportunity again".

Uh, it's one effect from a single card per opportunity, not one effect period. Otherwise things like multiple Mercenary Copilots wouldn't work.

So in other words, the actions happen simultaneously, and the decloak can't trigger because in that instant in time you weren't cloaked? Is that the general idea?

So in other words, the actions happen simultaneously, and the decloak can't trigger because in that instant in time you weren't cloaked? Is that the general idea?

I would say so, yes.

Just so I'm clear;

An uncloaked TIE Phantom with Advanced Sensors cannot Cloak->decloak->move.

but a cloaked TIE Phantom with Advanced Sensors can decloak->cloak->move.

Do I have that right?

So in other words, the actions happen simultaneously, and the decloak can't trigger because in that instant in time you weren't cloaked? Is that the general idea?

I would say so, yes.

That's what I figured. It's a bummer, I had a list prepped with a pair of Shadow squads with AS and STA, but I understand why.

Just so I'm clear;

An uncloaked TIE Phantom with Advanced Sensors cannot Cloak->decloak->move.

but a cloaked TIE Phantom with Advanced Sensors can decloak->cloak->move.

Do I have that right?

And then not be able to shoot, yes.

I'm a noob. Don't shoot me. Could this card revitalize the named Tie Advanced pilots?

Just so I'm clear;

An uncloaked TIE Phantom with Advanced Sensors cannot Cloak->decloak->move.

but a cloaked TIE Phantom with Advanced Sensors can decloak->cloak->move.

Do I have that right?

<shrug> Maybe? The actual reason behind the Advanced Sensors/Decloak ruling is a matter of some debate, so it's hard to say for sure how it applies to other situations.

But I'd be inclined to say no. Whatever the timing on it, you can't decloak if you're not cloaked, and you can't cloak if you're already cloaked. So I think the condition check should hit both equally.

Edit: To maybe be clearer there... There is some check in there to see if the decloak operation is valid. Whatever the actual check and timing, the same should apply to see if the cloak operation is valid.

Could this card revitalize the named Tie Advanced pilots?

I don't think so.

Vader is already pretty popular, even if he's a bit over priced. Maarek has a somewhat unimpressive ability and is on a ship that isn't worth the points. The only thing that makes Vader worth it his his ability.

Stay on Target won't change the underlining problems with the Tie Advanced.

I'm a noob. Don't shoot me. Could this card revitalize the named Tie Advanced pilots?

While any new upgrade might make a TIE Advanced better, it's a question of whether it makes it worth taking over another ship with the same upgrade, or at the same point cost.

I'm a noob. Don't shoot me. Could this card revitalize the named Tie Advanced pilots?

Even on top of the above points, the Advanced has a relatively unimpressive selection of green maneuvers. The reds from using Stay on Target would be very problematic.

In addition to which the TIE Advanced dial doesn't have a 2 or 3 k-turn, which are desirable for a ship that wants to run Stay on Target.

If anything this makes the TIE Advanced worse...

my reasoning is that, at least with Vader, we have a pilot with a naturally high ps, which seems to be what this card is made for. Second, it's cheap, so while the Advanced is reputedly not cost effective, at least you add an impressive ability - to a pilot who can really use it - for not very many points. Third, the Advanced is seen as rather weak on firepower; with the SoT-ability you can presumably keep enemies in your sights more consistently, which might mitigate the low firepower over the course of a game.

Just so I'm clear;

An uncloaked TIE Phantom with Advanced Sensors cannot Cloak->decloak->move.

but a cloaked TIE Phantom with Advanced Sensors can decloak->cloak->move.

Do I have that right?

<shrug> Maybe? The actual reason behind the Advanced Sensors/Decloak ruling is a matter of some debate, so it's hard to say for sure how it applies to other situations.

But I'd be inclined to say no. Whatever the timing on it, you can't decloak if you're not cloaked, and you can't cloak if you're already cloaked. So I think the condition check should hit both equally.

Edit: To maybe be clearer there... There is some check in there to see if the decloak operation is valid. Whatever the actual check and timing, the same should apply to see if the cloak operation is valid.

If you have Advanced Sensors and a cloak token, revealing your dial triggers both. You can execute the effects in any order, so you can spend your cloak token and then use the Sensors to activate the cloak action.

If you have Advanced Sensors and no cloak token, revealing your dial triggers the Sensors. You can use them to perform the cloak action, but the cloak token you take doesn't travel back in time to have been present when you revealed your dial.

my reasoning is that, at least with Vader, we have a pilot with a naturally high ps, which seems to be what this card is made for. Second, it's cheap, so while the Advanced is reputedly not cost effective, at least you add an impressive ability - to a pilot who can really use it - for not very many points. Third, the Advanced is seen as rather weak on firepower; with the SoT-ability you can presumably keep enemies in your sights more consistently, which might mitigate the low firepower over the course of a game.

All correct. But none of it really fixes the drawbacks, and if you're talking Vader there are other options (better options) for increasing the firepower (Predator/Outmaneuver) or maneuverability (Engine Upgrade, Daredevil, even Adrenaline Rush).

Vader hates stress.

hates it.

It costs him twice as much as any other pilot to take a stress.

Daredevil he can get away with because of the crazy movement possibilities offered by green->boost->daredevil. Red maneuvers hurt him bad though.