5 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Yeah, that worries me. I'm aware that I'm kind of a cannon curmudgeon. I really hope the text on it makes it somewhat niche.

I hope it's not too niche, we could use some better cannons, and even if it isn't limited by text, it's limited by lacking r1 bonus.

I just don't agree that we need better cannons.

Dorsal Turret and Ion Cannon Turret handle most of that (It'd be nice to have some weak, 2-dice, range 2-3 turret, just to allow that as an option), and I think with Autoblasters added to Ion, we're actually in a decent-enough spot with cannons. I really don't want stronger ones coming along, now that B-Wings are getting double-taps.

But some of that is preference. I think cannons are fine. Most generics are fine. The issue is the top end. I'd rather not power creep cannons and generics to the level of Jedi. The gap should be narrowed, to be sure, but folks can disagree about from which side.

We don't need better cannons, we need cheaper cannons.

16 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Dorsal Turret and Ion Cannon Turret handle most of that

Turret != Cannon

3 minutes ago, Cerebrawl said:

Turret != Cannon

*shrug*

My point is that having the basic options--2 dice plain (with the handy bullseye and crit perks), 3 dice ion--with a few spicy options like HLC and Tractor is enough.

7 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

*shrug*

My point is that having the basic options--2 dice plain (with the handy bullseye and crit perks), 3 dice ion--with a few spicy options like HLC and Tractor is enough.

And I disagree.

HLC rarely lines up(it's utterly useless on low initiative ships), tractor isn't damage(and has been nerfed and has further nerfs lined up). Autoblaster is the best of the bunch and it's still pretty limited. If the new cannon is indeed just a straight up 3 dice range 2-3 attack, it's sort of the inverse of the autoblaster. Like a 3 dice gun at range 2-3, but not at r1(so it's not just a 3 dice gun cannon), while autoblaster is like a 3 dice gun in bullseye at r1-2. Autoblaster bullseye isn't that hard to line up at close range.

So basically: autoblaster is better for up close, new cannon is better for mid-long range. Seems fine with me.

33 minutes ago, KCDodger said:

We don't need better cannons, we need cheaper cannons.

What if we got a costs back on the configurations? Does that make sense? Maybe XG-1 at 0, OS-1 at 1, but the base Gunboat cost down? Could that work to buff cannon gunboats a bit, without causing other problems?

Hrm.

Naw, that doesn't really work.

Passive Sensor gunboats don't really need OS-1 too much, so they'd just get a straight buff. There could be tweaks to gunboat balance that would be good, but I don't think this would be one of them. I think it'd be better to leave XG-1 and OS-1 at the same price.

3 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

What if we got a costs back on the configurations? Does that make sense? Maybe XG-1 at 0, OS-1 at 1, but the base Gunboat cost down? Could that work to buff cannon gunboats a bit, without causing other problems?

Hrm.

Naw, that doesn't really work.

Passive Sensor gunboats don't really need OS-1 too much, so they'd just get a straight buff. There could be tweaks to gunboat balance that would be good, but I don't think this would be one of them. I think it'd be better to leave XG-1 and OS-1 at the same price.

Oh, right, this is the gunboat thread, lol.

Uh, well in the Gunboat's case, the inability to double tap at all is kind of its biggest weakness. Now there's really cool-*** ways to fly the XG-1 in this game, but they all require SLAM and patience.

6 minutes ago, KCDodger said:

Now there's really cool-*** ways to fly the XG-1 in this game, but they all require [...] patience.

Which is kind of a problem in a time-limited game.

Gunboats feel like they've got so many sweet tools, but the time it takes for a SLAM ship to get back into a game after an initial pass seems... prohibitive. I don't think that calls for a massive gunboat shakeup, but for as nifty as they can be, Gunboats can be awkward.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

Also, I think the Ion Cannon is good, even if you can't build a whole list of it and expect it to do well. Pure Gunboat Cannon Spam, like most pure spam lists, should be somewhat limited in usefulness.

I have wondered about trying a scyk swarm with them (6 ships with a 3-dice attack cannon is no joke even with a 1-damage limit), but I've never gotten round to it.

Besides which I suspect even then you'd be best off using a mix of ion cannons to make the enemy predictable and heavy laser cannons to slap them about the head and neck once you do so.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

Yeah, that worries me. I'm aware that I'm kind of a cannon curmudgeon. I really hope the text on it makes it somewhat niche.

They have fully obscured the text (maybe deliberately), so we'll wait and see. I wouldn't be totally shocked to see a strain-cannon as a 'modernised' version of the flechette cannon.

26 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Which is kind of a problem in a time-limited game.

Gunboats feel like they've got so many sweet tools, but the time it takes for a SLAM ship to get back into a game after an initial pass seems... prohibitive. I don't think that calls for a massive gunboat shakeup, but for as nifty as they can be, Gunboats can be awkward.

This is the biggest problem with Gunboats competitively. I took them to a regional way back in 1E and I quickly realized their limitations in a timed competitive format. I had at least 2 games go to time while I still had healthy Gunboats that I just didn't have the time to get them back into the fight to kill something to win. Between slamming and reloading ordnance they just take a lot of time to finish off some opponents. Until FFG actually does start including scenarios in OP, I just don't see a Gunboat centric list being competitive.

19 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

They have fully obscured the text (maybe deliberately), so we'll wait and see. I wouldn't be totally shocked to see a strain-cannon as a 'modernised' version of the flechette cannon.

I don't really like the thought of a strain cannon, since strain is basically Wedge. Putting one or more strain on someone really helps push more damage *right now*. The saving grace of Tractor Beam is you don't get to deal damage with it.

19 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I have wondered about trying a scyk swarm with them (6 ships with a 3-dice attack cannon is no joke even with a 1-damage limit), but I've never gotten round to it.

Besides which I suspect even then you'd be best off using a mix of ion cannons to make the enemy predictable and heavy laser cannons to slap them about the head and neck once you do so.

I'm a bit of a broken record with my Fenn Rau + Ion Scyks. Either 3 Ion + Autoblasters Sunny, or 4 Ion. I think it kinda works. Mix in about 30%-50% of your list as actual-damage, and the Ion control works really well.

I'm not sure the best way to organize an Imperial list around the same principle (mix Ion gunboats with Ion Turret Aggressors?), but the core idea doesn't seem too bad to me.

2 minutes ago, Jo Jo said:

This is the biggest problem with Gunboats competitively. I took them to a regional way back in 1E and I quickly realized their limitations in a timed competitive format. I had at least 2 games go to time while I still had healthy Gunboats that I just didn't have the time to get them back into the fight to kill something to win. Between slamming and reloading ordnance they just take a lot of time to finish off some opponents. Until FFG actually does start including scenarios in OP, I just don't see a Gunboat centric list being competitive.

At the same time, I think it's likely that a bit of a nudge could also put them really over the top. SLAM ships can run away FAST and a slight points lead from an early alpha strike is perhaps something which could be preserved. Like, if they got actually-good, we'd probably all really hate them.

16 minutes ago, Jo Jo said:

This is the biggest problem with Gunboats competitively. I took them to a regional way back in 1E and I quickly realized their limitations in a timed competitive format. I had at least 2 games go to time while I still had healthy Gunboats that I just didn't have the time to get them back into the fight to kill something to win. Between slamming and reloading ordnance they just take a lot of time to finish off some opponents. Until FFG actually does start including scenarios in OP, I just don't see a Gunboat centric list being competitive.

...what were you flying? I flew gunboats at regionals at the end of 1e and almost none of my games ever went to time.

Aaaand the 5x Autoblaster Rho list is dead

Back to the Nu's! But I'll miss that extra Pilot Initiative point.

5 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I'm a bit of a broken record with my Fenn Rau + Ion Scyks. Either 3 Ion + Autoblasters Sunny, or 4 Ion. I think it kinda works. Mix in about 30%-50% of your list as actual-damage, and the Ion control works really well.

And... this just got a TONNE better. Used to run 0-1 points of bid, with no talent on Fenn. Now the list has 8-9 points of bid before taking a talent, so I could bring Fearlessness Fenn with a 5-6 point bid. That's going to feel a lot nicer.

///

Gunboats... they kinda got the shaft this round, didn't they? Scyks got their price reduced, and wound up net positive with the cannon updates. Final XG-1 builds all got a 1 point nerf, and there aren't really any tempting new options for anyone else. Saturation Salvo still overpriced at 5 points.

Lots of talk about our beloved Gunboats being ridiculously overpriced on eBay / Amazon / aftermarket etc recently.

To the extend that some *cough* posters are using it as an excuse for moving away from Extended events, because "new players can't find or afford them".

LOL like the Gunboats have EVER dominated competitive events or been the lynchpin of lists in 2nd Edition. Competitive, they ain't.

And their price on the market isn't a particularly new thing either; they've been hard to get hold of since 1st edition.

That rarity is pretty nice to note though - our five winged angels have obviously been a popular purchase!

1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

That rarity is pretty nice to note though - our five winged angels have obviously been a popular purchase!

They are quite unique in the Imperial arsenal and heck, they look sexy on the table.

2 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

LOL like the Gunboats have EVER dominated competitive events or been the lynchpin of lists in 2nd Edition. Competitive, they ain't.

Did you miss Hatchetman?

I know of a local store that should stil have some Gunboats. Last time I went by there were still at least three, as X-wing is just a marginal game for them and they still hoard a lot of 1.0 stuff.

I've thought more than once to buy and resell them for a bit of profit, but then I always remember I don't like those practices XD

On 3/13/2020 at 7:07 AM, FTS Gecko said:

Lots of talk about our beloved Gunboats being ridiculously overpriced on eBay / Amazon / aftermarket etc recently.

To the extend that some *cough* posters are using it as an excuse for moving away from Extended events, because "new players can't find or afford them".

LOL like the Gunboats have EVER dominated competitive events or been the lynchpin of lists in 2nd Edition. Competitive, they ain't.

And their price on the market isn't a particularly new thing either; they've been hard to get hold of since 1st edition.

That rarity is pretty nice to note though - our five winged angels have obviously been a popular purchase!

If they were available more widely I'd actually consider playing Imperials. I like beefy ships.

5 hours ago, Kharnete said:

I know of a local store that should stil have some Gunboats. Last time I went by there were still at least three, as X-wing is just a marginal game for them and they still hoard a lot of 1.0 stuff.

I've thought more than once to buy and resell them for a bit of profit, but then I always remember I don't like those practices XD

In this case it sounds like your idea would be a net positive for all parties. The store owner makes a sale, moving inventory he’s been stuck with for ages. You make a buck yourself. Whoever buys the gunboats from you is happy to acquire a hard to find item he didn’t have before. Plus, by adding some gunboats to the market you are adding supply and, in theory, fractionally reducing the price of other gunboats.

In the other hand, I feel like the devil on your shoulder telling you to do something you feel is wrong, so probably best to disregard!

That's a way to see it.

I don't know, at least I'll have some weeks to think about it due the lockdown here :P. I'll see what I do once all this madness pass.

On 3/14/2020 at 8:58 PM, KCDodger said:

If they were available more widely I'd actually consider playing Imperials. I like beefy ships.

They're tough as old boots, no doubt (especially Vynder). SLAM and the titles makes them pretty unique to fly as well.

They have the turning circle of a battleship though, they really don't make for a good end game ship at all.

14 hours ago, Kharnete said:

That's a way to see it.

I don't know, at least I'll have some weeks to think about it due the lockdown here :P. I'll see what I do once all this madness pass.

Great to hear from you @Kharnete - hope you are well and staying safe. Fingers crossed we're running into each other at Euro events again soon (I have yet to play against your dreaded Firesprays!)

I saw a lone Gunboat expansion at the last Hyperspace Trial I went to. Part of me wanted to pick it up as well, if only to have it pristine in box as a collector's item. Left it out in the wild though.

On 3/14/2020 at 2:10 PM, Kharnete said:

I know of a local store that should stil have some Gunboats. Last time I went by there were still at least three, as X-wing is just a marginal game for them and they still hoard a lot of 1.0 stuff.

I've thought more than once to buy and resell them for a bit of profit, but then I always remember I don't like those practices XD

I’d do it. Seriously. Those aren’t doing the shopkeeper any good unless they move, and you can bet that people elsewhere would like to fly the things.

Or, take a third way: tell the shopkeeper that they’re sitting on three gold nuggets and encourage them to eBay those themselves!

Or a fourth way: post the shop’s number and let people see if they’ll take and ship orders over the phone...