13 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

I did say that it was if you needed to trim points

The advantage over the cannon is the secondary weapon at range 3 and the os1 manoeuvrability with the APT. Anecdotally I haven’t found the torp to be any more reliable at giving ion tokens. Experiences may vary.

Against a 2 Green + Focus (or enough Force) ship, Torps vs Missiles is a 60.3% vs 31.6% chance of inflicting at least one Ion token. (Attacker presumed to have just the Lock from Passive Sensors)

Against 3 Green + Focus, 38.4% vs 15.6% chance.

I'd call that a meaningful difference. However, it's a small enough difference that it might not really be visible in a small sample size.

I've posted this in Aces High, but seeing as it's gunboats, one can't really not bring it here too (if for no other reason than to ensure this thread stays on top!).

The Major 'Hatchetman' Vynder is brutal in Aces High. Snubfighter level is 75pts and lets you have everything you want and some additional options.

Major Vynder (41)
Lone Wolf (5)
Fire-Control System (2)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)
Homing Missiles (5)
Advanced SLAM (3)
Os-1 Arsenal Loadout (0)
Proton Torpedoes (13)

I'd be tempted to try and switch to Passive Sensors, for additional targeting flexibility, but then you're down on at least one reroll and you have to swap something else out. Homing for Ion is probably most tempting but in that format first blooding a ship is certainly worthwhile and being able to 'guarantee' a kill shot or first blood on something squirrelly is why you'd want to have passives anyway, so maybe Plasmas instead of Proton Torps?

From what I experienced (sample size of 1) time on target was pretty key, so the flexibility of passive would be working against this, going into a second round of shooting with an existing lock, flexibly slamming into focus or just focus (though the extra defence out of slam is pretty key) and hitting with 4-5 dice with 2x rerolls from FCS and LW and the focus allowed me to delete 1 firespray, cripple it hard enough to make it flee when it respawned, and then get the final kill on Darth Maul for the win.

To be fair, it's Hatchetman... it's good!

I like the idea behind Ions (in a more general format) but as has been said, getting the tokens to stick is the hard bit. Interested to see how Ion Bombs work when they come out, as I fear that AoE 1 automatic Ion token might be considered too strong and variable chance could easily be too weak. Maybe roll 1 (or 2 dice) for each ship in range, blank = ion, hit/crit/focus = hit?

22 minutes ago, PartridgeKing said:

I've posted this in Aces High, but seeing as it's gunboats, one can't really not bring it here too (if for no other reason than to ensure this thread stays on top!).

The Major 'Hatchetman' Vynder is brutal in Aces High. Snubfighter level is 75pts and lets you have everything you want and some additional options.

Major Vynder (41)
Lone Wolf (5)
Fire-Control System (2)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)
Homing Missiles (5)
Advanced SLAM (3)
Os-1 Arsenal Loadout (0)
Proton Torpedoes (13)

Why Homing Missiles? Isn't this thing useless when you get Proton Torpedoes? (if you really want to spend points, put on a Diamond-Boron Missiles, just for variety)

1 minute ago, Odanan said:

Why Homing Missiles?

Specifically for the 4 dice attack or automatic 1 damage. It's not great, but the option of 1 auto-damage, or a 4 dice attack that could do more (or less) is for clutch shots. Also DBM are a point too expensive to fit on that build into the snubfighter (75pt) category we were using.

Well for Aces High, homing missiles are more valuable than normal because the 1 damage option on an undamaged ship is a point, and of course if you shoot at something at 1 hp, well it's a 4 dice attack.

I need to get back in the Gunboat groove, and I feel.like acehole Vynder is my way to go.

Since we're talking extended here, who would be your preferred wingmen?

I feel like Defenders look very good next to a Gunboat, but points are tight. This is on my to try list though...

Quote

New Squadron

(41) Major Vynder [Alpha-class Star Wing]
(0) Os-1 Arsenal Loadout
(4) Ion Missiles
(3) Advanced SLAM
(2) Fire-Control System
(6) Adv. Proton Torpedoes
Points: 56

(67) Darth Vader [TIE Advanced x1]
(3) Hate
(6) Afterburners
(3) Passive Sensors
Points: 79

(51) "Echo" [TIE/ph Phantom]
(9) Fifth Brother
(3) Passive Sensors
Points: 63

Total points: 198

Hate is a little redundant but there aren’t enough points to get whisper or juke on that phantom. I’d probably stick crackshot on it though.

Have a look at that #6 list: https://listfortress.com/tournaments/1406

22 minutes ago, Cerebrawl said:

Have a look at that #6 list: https://listfortress.com/tournaments/1406

OK. That one is going to need some explaining! 😮

2 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

OK. That one is going to need some explaining! 😮

It doesn't need too much explaining: fire a tractor beam at i5, then 5 2-dice attacks with focus and reroll. If the tractor beam lands on a 2-die ship, you're doing 8.1 hits of damage on the following attacks. If the defender spends a token to dodge the tractor beam, you're still hitting for 6.4 damage.

On the defensive side, you've got iden protecting the TIEs and 7 health on each of the gunboats.

• 6 Focus/Howl shots against 2 Green with Focus = Expected Total Hits: 5.578 (everyone shoots normal)
• 5 Focus/Howl shots against 2 Green without Focus = Expected Total Hits: 5.548 (that is, Tractor spends Focus) @gadwag at least one 3-dice attack slipped through in your calcs
• 5 Focus/Howl shots against 1 Green with Focus = Expected Total Hits: 6.538 (that is, Tractor hits)
  • The other factor: a tractor pull has a decent chance to lower the range band. Tractor from R3 to R2 reduces the defense dice by 2. Tractor from Range 2 to Range 1 adds bonus attack dice.

//

That said, though:

7 Focus/Howl shots against 2 Green with Focus = Expected Total Hits: 6.667 (that is, skipping gunboats to bring an extra TIE)

//

Anyhow, it's cool to see someone playing with tractors here, since the math is at least decent. Sometimes, it's even worthwhile for an Upsilon to fire a Tractor Beam (basically, only when you can shorten the range).

I did think my numbers were absurdly high, thanks for correcting.

Agreed that playing with tractors looks fun. Adding gunboats helps to diversify the list and shore up against TIEs dying too easily. Plus, if Iden can convince someone to shoot the gunboat first, you're laughing

Any ace list is going to murder this

After a good while not using anything else but Firesprays, Fangs and Quads, I took out the 5x Autoblaster Rho list for a 5-round tournament last week. Finished 3-2, with both defeats against Rebel beef in *very* close games (as close as I would have won them with 1 extra damage in one game, and 2 in the other). Such a blast to play.

This weekend I'm thinking I may go the Gamma 1 is the Emperor's fool pigeon route for laughs, aka Maarek (or a Defender, gonna toy with the buidler now) + whatever gunboats fit it.

@Kharnete That is beautiful! I only have two. Really regret not picking up another because now I can't have a wing of these beauties in Epic.

I tried out Vynder in Aces High and I was disappointed. But that's what I get for using Xg-1 instead of Os-1.

ok so prediction time. will they

a. rerelease gunboat

b. make the gunboat super bad so nobody cares

c. just let the gunboat continue to be more expensive than the Raider

They will rerelease it at some point. It's very popular and the stock levels are zero, given the prices that you find people paying for them in Amazon and eBay. If they have anyone with brain in the sales department, they will push for rereleasing this one. And the designers recently said that expected sales and stock levels determine the likelihood for a rerelease.

The XG-1 gunboat needs better cannons, but it's hard to design cannons for 2.0 that don't immediately become no-brainer choice over missiles or torpedoes. Or autoinclude. I don't think "Mangler" cannon belongs to 2.0. It's just a straight upgrade to the primary weapon, and it would be powercreep and totally nullify Barrage Rockets OS-1, for example.
Similarly, Linked Battery providing straight rerolls would be just too good.

I think OS-1 gunboat has plenty of viable toys to play with already: barrage and proton rockets, proton, plasma, and advanced torpedoes, etc. All those have proven good and let you choose how expensive you want your gunboat to be and lead to different interesting approaches to combat with them.

What I just need to make my gunboats more pleasant to play with is the rerelease of Lightning Reflexes, either as a talent or something similar as a system or whatever. Something that let's the gunboat turn around in one round, instead of in 3, even if it has only one or two charges.

Do we know if anyone is actually paying these prices on eBay/Amazon, or is it just what folks are charging? But I guess having 1 whale buy an absurdly priced Gunboat makes up for 50 folks saying "ain't no way."

gonna break out and play around with the boats this week. Like the ideas bouncing around in here.

Missileboat's new friend? ASLAM into Lock, 3 dice in arc, 2 dice anywhere in the front half. Bring an advanced proton for range 1 in arc shots?

Gunboats with these do seem like fun. SLAM hard turn into hard turn never seems to leave me with a shot, but with a 180 degree firing arc, it might.

If I'm doing Torps also, maybe Ion. Lock someone into the 1-straight, then pop them with 4-dice Bullseye attacks.

Actually I would quite like just a nice generic cannon to put on these guys as a simple firepower upgrade. Don't want something fancy with lots of text, just red dice.

In 1.0 I liked to run gunboats with HLC, however that weapon is pretty awful now.

5 minutes ago, william1134 said:

Actually I would quite like just a nice generic cannon to put on these guys as a simple firepower upgrade. Don't want something fancy with lots of text, just red dice.

In 1.0 I liked to run gunboats with HLC, however that weapon is pretty awful now.

I think that's deliberate. One thing that I don't want to see is a cannon which is just a primary-weapon-but-better (like the mangler cannon).

9 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

Missileboat's new friend? ASLAM into Lock, 3 dice in arc, 2 dice anywhere in the front half. Bring an advanced proton for range 1 in arc shots?

Don't ignore the 4-dice-in-bullseye, allowing them to work as knockoff proton rockets if the opportunity presents itself.

1 hour ago, william1134 said:

Actually I would quite like just a nice generic cannon to put on these guys as a simple firepower upgrade. Don't want something fancy with lots of text, just red dice.

In 1.0 I liked to run gunboats with HLC, however that weapon is pretty awful now.

There is a new cannon in the reveal. 2/3 range, 3 attack dice, apparently.

5 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I think that's deliberate. One thing that I don't want to see is a cannon which is just a primary-weapon-but-better (like the mangler cannon).

I cannot repeat this hard enough. Just creating a "good" cannon would be the most boring **** imaginable, and I think it'd be really bad for the game overall. I think the existence of Barrage Rockets has killed the potential of all double-missile slot ships, and I'd really hate for a plain cannon to come along and force the ruin of any cannon-using ships.

5 hours ago, william1134 said:

Actually I would quite like just a nice generic cannon to put on these guys as a simple firepower upgrade. Don't want something fancy with lots of text, just red dice.

Also, I think the Ion Cannon is good, even if you can't build a whole list of it and expect it to do well. Pure Gunboat Cannon Spam, like most pure spam lists, should be somewhat limited in usefulness.

4 hours ago, Odanan said:

There is a new cannon in the reveal. 2/3 range, 3 attack dice, apparently.

Yeah, that worries me. I'm aware that I'm kind of a cannon curmudgeon. I really hope the text on it makes it somewhat niche.