Completely ignoring the EU, even with the destruction of DSII, the rebels had no business winning. They were massively out gunned capital ship and fighter wise. Home One carries what, 140 fighters? An ISDII carries 70 each and i saw a LOT of star destroyers. After killing emperor, the rebels should have jumped out of battle. If interdictors are there, they should have been wiped out. Even with the loss of CiC, there would be a command structure in place. They were only preventing fleeing ships from escaping. They were holding back. Once destroyed, the reason to hold back was gone and the fleet should have taken off the kid gloves.

Depends on if you count the ROTJ novelization as EU. It specifically states that the rebel fleet stretched further than the eye can see so clearly what we saw in the movie wasn't everything.

And by the time the Death Star II went down the Imperial fleet had lost its flagship, and an unknown number of other ships, even if you ignore the novel saying that their main communications ship was destroyed. Their chain of command was disrupted, their morale probably had holes in it the Rebel fleet could fly through. The Imperial fleet was not run by droids, they are not going to be able to carry on like normal immediately following back to back blows like that and there is no reason to believe they would be able to do so.

I'll go by movie alone, since i havent read the novelization.

The rebels were squeezed between DSII and a ton of Imp firepower.

Each ship would be able to target independantly upon loss of CnC structure, and Id give 30 minutes for a new structure to be quickly figured out. I cant think of a navy that would so quickly poodoo the bed just because the main admiral, largest carrier and battleship was destroyed. Esp a navy that has been subjugating most of the known galaxy for decades. The rebs were trying to flee in case lando failed. It should have been a rout once the main Imp fleet opened up.

You forget that they also lost their head of state, and the Death Star, plus the two most feared men in the galaxy (Palpatine and Vader.)

You have a dictatorship's head of state and his right hand man/enforcer in a new fortress that was supposed to be indestructible and had a main gun that's the most powerful weapon known by far. You have a fleet of battleships led by the most powerful and feared battleship in existence with an enemy fleet trapped between the two. They enemy fleet manages to destroy the fortress, the flagship, and an unknown number of the smaller battleships and you expect the fleet to reorganize its chain of command under fire and fight on like the situation is normal?

You forget that they also lost their head of state, and the Death Star, plus the two most feared men in the galaxy (Palpatine and Vader.)

You have a dictatorship's head of state and his right hand man/enforcer in a new fortress that was supposed to be indestructible and had a main gun that's the most powerful weapon known by far. You have a fleet of battleships led by the most powerful and feared battleship in existence with an enemy fleet trapped between the two. They enemy fleet manages to destroy the fortress, the flagship, and an unknown number of the smaller battleships and you expect the fleet to reorganize its chain of command under fire and fight on like the situation is normal?

Also, how many were loyal supporters of the Empire and how many were just obedient out of fear of being choked?

Heaven forbid there be contingency plans.

Of course, I did watch the debacle White House Down...

So, there's that. I guess.

Given Palpatine's ego and his and Vader's reputations it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of officers were afraid to suggest the need for contingency plans, or having them drawn up. I could easily see Palpatine finding out about such a plan and having all the officers involved in drawing it up executed for being defeatist

Given Palpatine's ego and his and Vader's reputations it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of officers were afraid to suggest the need for contingency plans, or having them drawn up. I could easily see Palpatine finding out about such a plan and having all the officers involved in drawing it up executed for being defeatist

This would be an example of the kinds of things I despise where villains have to be portrayed as stupid so the equally stupid good guys have a chance.

Palpatine was not stupid - he did believe in contingency plans (consider his own clones and his backup apprentice roster). The Sith dealt with millennia of failure and setbacks, surviving it all and coming back from the brink. You don't do that without contingency planning including your significant assets (like a fleet).

Given Palpatine's ego and his and Vader's reputations it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of officers were afraid to suggest the need for contingency plans, or having them drawn up. I could easily see Palpatine finding out about such a plan and having all the officers involved in drawing it up executed for being defeatist

This would be an example of the kinds of things I despise where villains have to be portrayed as stupid so the equally stupid good guys have a chance.

Palpatine was not stupid - he did believe in contingency plans (consider his own clones and his backup apprentice roster). The Sith dealt with millennia of failure and setbacks, surviving it all and coming back from the brink. You don't do that without contingency planning including your significant assets (like a fleet).

Ahh but all of Palpatine's contingency plans are based on the EU, and if we include those in the discussion than we have to include all of the little details which explain whythe Empire lost Endor, like their local communications hub being destroyed with the Death Star II, their main communications ship and auxiliary flagship being destroyed before Executor went down, and the admiral in command of the tertiary flagship and secondary communications ship being KIA and leaving his flag captain as acting commander of he fleet.

Or we ignore the EU and there is no sign whatsoever of Palpatine seeing a need for a contingency plan, and the Imperial fleet's morale and chain of command collapse between Executor's loss, Palpatine's death, and the destruction of the Death Star, not IMO an unreasonable possibility given the morale blows, and losses to the chain of command they had endured.

Given Palpatine's ego and his and Vader's reputations it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of officers were afraid to suggest the need for contingency plans, or having them drawn up. I could easily see Palpatine finding out about such a plan and having all the officers involved in drawing it up executed for being defeatist

This would be an example of the kinds of things I despise where villains have to be portrayed as stupid so the equally stupid good guys have a chance.

Palpatine was not stupid - he did believe in contingency plans (consider his own clones and his backup apprentice roster). The Sith dealt with millennia of failure and setbacks, surviving it all and coming back from the brink. You don't do that without contingency planning including your significant assets (like a fleet).

The problem is that, like certain historical figures, the only contingency plans they approve of are the ones they themselves come up with.

Hitler and Stalin both were fans of contingency plans - but not ones that they didn't have a hand in. And specifically not ones for the period following their own demise.

For what it's worth, I'm really hoping that the Dark Empire comics get retconned out of existence, along with Sith Immortality via Clone.

We know Vader was a psycho - and the price for failure was often a painful death. Palpatine wasn't much better.

I seriously doubt either would allow for plans that involved both being deceased/absent at the same time. A bevy for one or the other... I'm certain Vader had several for dealing with the Death of Palpatine, and Palpatine certainly had another one for the death of Vader (besides the one we saw on screen).

The beauty of it is, everyone of us can spin it the way he wants it as a GM.

For me as a GM it seems highly doubtful that the entire fleet stopped working. They may stop working as a whole since their communication went down and could hardly talk to each other. But the officers onboard of the Star Destroyers were veterans with years or decades of service, they would not falter that easily and let the 'killers' of their bosses escape. So the various ships should still be doing their job and as communication gets back online work together accordingly.

And not every one has personally met the Emperor or Vader, the Empire is a bit too big and there are too many SDs vor them to have visited them all. Sure, rumors and stories go around, but the actual thing ...

The same goes for the placement of only incompetent selfish bumbling idiots as Moffs all around who fractured the Empire further. Makes me cringe adhering to the age old cliché of brutal stupid bullies to get the job of villain. Considering the political backstabbing and military actions you can't get that high without a good amount of brain.

But, again, that is MY opinion on the thing. Go with what suit your games and tastes the best.

As a Games Master, or author as I prefer to be known, I have to say I prefer to work with existing movies. I don't know much of the EU so I might clash a bit there. I've not played Force Unleashed but I did read a few things on Wookieepedia about what happened and there the first spark of inspiration came.

My games start between Force Unleashed and Episode IV New Hope. In a completely different region of the galaxy to the movies. Though Darth Vader makes an appearance in the prologue to the whole story, he then goes away to intercept a certain Corvette, over a certain planet where he meets a certain princess.

I'm saving the destruction of Alderaan until such a time when I need to balance out the odds. So if Rebels are winning at games of X-Wing and having successful missions, the destruction of Alderaan makes people terrified of the Empire and the Rebellion starts to lose support. If the Empire seem to be winning then the destruction will increase support of the Rebellion. Either way, victory at Yavin IV will be a big boost for the Rebellion. If they hear about it.

So I work with the fiction, not against it. For players and NPC's alike, the original trilogy will serve as topics for rumour and gossip. Not basis for games.

What do we actually know?

The Emperor leaked the details of the new Death Star and lured the Rebel Alliance out because he would be attending... so how would they know he's actually there?

Vader would obviously be present after all the Emperor wouldn't exclude him from whats going on and I assume his plan was to use the event to lure in Luke Skywalker and hopefully have him duel his fatehr to the death so he could turn Luke to the darkside as his new apprentice or since he would have been weakened fighting Darth Vader so he could finish him off himself.

Obviously the Imperial Fleet is lying in wait for the Rebels to arrive and only reveal themselves once the Emperor is ready to demonstrate the second Death Star's main weapon is fully operational...

So... if I had to handle this I'd have revealed that the Separatist Fleet joined the Alliance along with whats his name and the Katana Fleet have them turn up to turn the tide of battle since the Emperor was expecting the battle from one quarter not from unexpected allies.

The Separatists having survived in hiding since the end of the Clone Wars have had years to realise just how they were played and dwindling in number would have made contact with at least a cell of the Rebel Alliance enough that the planners for the attack on the second death star would have invited them and Iblis I think his name is (I'm dreadful at remembering that character's name!) is given an invite and he joins in once he realises its an obvious trap that could be used to their advantage...

The shuttle heads to Endor but not to take the shield generator out thats a job left to a fighter carrier and its fighters to take it out and draw the attention of the Death Star's escorts they need only bomb the generator to drop the shields and then have the Separatist fleet drop out right atop of the Death Star sending drone fighters into the battlestation's interior programmed to ram the power core and cause it to explode...

Meanwhile on Endor the rebel unit having found the scout squad heads to cover to draw them out after them so when the bombers fly in they're caught on the ground or out of position with the generator blown the rebel unit heads for the base using the confusion to secure the auxiliary control systems and hack the fleet com specifically so they can sow as much confusion as they can.

The Imperial Fleet moves in unaware that the "Rebel Fleet" they're fighting is actually there to draw them in specifically so when they blow the Death Star it suffers sufficient damage for the arriving reinforcements...

Seriously though why would the Emperor attend in person?

I mean he could send a body double and let Vader know so he doesn't spoil things and the whole Rebel attack would fail regardless of what happened even if Luke turns himself in they could have sent him off out of the system with Vader accompanying him and they wouldn't even know anything was wrong until it was too late ... so does anyone know why he came in person?

I mean he could send a body double and let Vader know so he doesn't spoil things and the whole Rebel attack would fail regardless of what happened even if Luke turns himself in they could have sent him off out of the system with Vader accompanying him and they wouldn't even know anything was wrong until it was too late ... so does anyone know why he came in person?

Arrogance.

Plotnecessity.

The beauty of it is, everyone of us can spin it the way he wants it as a GM.

For me as a GM it seems highly doubtful that the entire fleet stopped working. They may stop working as a whole since their communication went down and could hardly talk to each other. But the officers onboard of the Star Destroyers were veterans with years or decades of service, they would not falter that easily and let the 'killers' of their bosses escape. So the various ships should still be doing their job and as communication gets back online work together accordingly.

And not every one has personally met the Emperor or Vader, the Empire is a bit too big and there are too many SDs vor them to have visited them all. Sure, rumors and stories go around, but the actual thing ...

The same goes for the placement of only incompetent selfish bumbling idiots as Moffs all around who fractured the Empire further. Makes me cringe adhering to the age old cliché of brutal stupid bullies to get the job of villain. Considering the political backstabbing and military actions you can't get that high without a good amount of brain.

But, again, that is MY opinion on the thing. Go with what suit your games and tastes the best.

To each their own. I personally think you are badly underestimating how much damage even the temporary loss of communications would be to a fleet under battle conditions especially when the opposing fleet doesn't have that issue.

And than there's the whole issue of how much damage losing Palpatine, Vader, The Death Star, and Executor would do to the morale of the imperial soldiers and officers. I can't personally think of any precedent for a military force losing its chief of state, heir apparent, most powerful fortress, and flagship or command unit plus flag officers attached to said ship or unit in one engagement and managing to win the battle. The war possibly but not the battle that all those losses took place at.

The thing is, once the Death Star went with Palpatine and Vader onboard, the Rebels had won -- anything else after that is just how badly they're mauled afterward.

The thing is, once the Death Star went with Palpatine and Vader onboard, the Rebels had won -- anything else after that is just how badly they're mauled afterward.

And my proposed alteration doesn't change this. The Rebels still accomplish their goals at Endor, but the price that they have to pay is FAR greater and the aftermath doesn't involve total splintering of the Empire.

You know I can't help wondering what if the reason Palpatine was so reclusive was because he had to make use of several clone bodies to stay alive?

Imagine what would happen if after the events of ROTJ it turns out the Emperor is still alive because his followers simply decanted a clone whose memories was backed up until his recent trip to Endor?

Wouldn't remember what happened only that the second Death Star was blown up and his apprentice killed and given he was willing to clone himself why not Anakin?

One of the few points of Force Unleashed 2 is that Vader was willing to clone his secret apprentice so why not himself?

I had wondered what if Anakin's lost hand in AotC was actually secured for that purpose and the Anakin, Obi faced on Mustafar was actually the clone which would explain how he could have slain those kids (or suggested he did) and harm Padme like he did with the original being brainwashed back on Byss or wherever and used the lie that Obi-Wan caused Padme's death as Anakin's true reason for falling to the darkside...

But lord that would seriously annoy the fans wouldn't it?!

The beauty of it is, everyone of us can spin it the way he wants it as a GM.

For me as a GM it seems highly doubtful that the entire fleet stopped working. They may stop working as a whole since their communication went down and could hardly talk to each other. But the officers onboard of the Star Destroyers were veterans with years or decades of service, they would not falter that easily and let the 'killers' of their bosses escape. So the various ships should still be doing their job and as communication gets back online work together accordingly.

And not every one has personally met the Emperor or Vader, the Empire is a bit too big and there are too many SDs vor them to have visited them all. Sure, rumors and stories go around, but the actual thing ...

The same goes for the placement of only incompetent selfish bumbling idiots as Moffs all around who fractured the Empire further. Makes me cringe adhering to the age old cliché of brutal stupid bullies to get the job of villain. Considering the political backstabbing and military actions you can't get that high without a good amount of brain.

But, again, that is MY opinion on the thing. Go with what suit your games and tastes the best.

To each their own. I personally think you are badly underestimating how much damage even the temporary loss of communications would be to a fleet under battle conditions especially when the opposing fleet doesn't have that issue.

And than there's the whole issue of how much damage losing Palpatine, Vader, The Death Star, and Executor would do to the morale of the imperial soldiers and officers. I can't personally think of any precedent for a military force losing its chief of state, heir apparent, most powerful fortress, and flagship or command unit plus flag officers attached to said ship or unit in one engagement and managing to win the battle. The war possibly but not the battle that all those losses took place at.

I can... Several medieval kings, and Nazi Germany. Effectively, also WW II Imperial Japan.

The beauty of it is, everyone of us can spin it the way he wants it as a GM.

For me as a GM it seems highly doubtful that the entire fleet stopped working. They may stop working as a whole since their communication went down and could hardly talk to each other. But the officers onboard of the Star Destroyers were veterans with years or decades of service, they would not falter that easily and let the 'killers' of their bosses escape. So the various ships should still be doing their job and as communication gets back online work together accordingly.

And not every one has personally met the Emperor or Vader, the Empire is a bit too big and there are too many SDs vor them to have visited them all. Sure, rumors and stories go around, but the actual thing ...

The same goes for the placement of only incompetent selfish bumbling idiots as Moffs all around who fractured the Empire further. Makes me cringe adhering to the age old cliché of brutal stupid bullies to get the job of villain. Considering the political backstabbing and military actions you can't get that high without a good amount of brain.

But, again, that is MY opinion on the thing. Go with what suit your games and tastes the best.

To each their own. I personally think you are badly underestimating how much damage even the temporary loss of communications would be to a fleet under battle conditions especially when the opposing fleet doesn't have that issue.

And than there's the whole issue of how much damage losing Palpatine, Vader, The Death Star, and Executor would do to the morale of the imperial soldiers and officers. I can't personally think of any precedent for a military force losing its chief of state, heir apparent, most powerful fortress, and flagship or command unit plus flag officers attached to said ship or unit in one engagement and managing to win the battle. The war possibly but not the battle that all those losses took place at.

I can... Several medieval kings, and Nazi Germany. Effectively, also WW II Imperial Japan.

The Nazis lost the battle that was going on when Hitler committed suicide.

The beauty of it is, everyone of us can spin it the way he wants it as a GM.

For me as a GM it seems highly doubtful that the entire fleet stopped working. They may stop working as a whole since their communication went down and could hardly talk to each other. But the officers onboard of the Star Destroyers were veterans with years or decades of service, they would not falter that easily and let the 'killers' of their bosses escape. So the various ships should still be doing their job and as communication gets back online work together accordingly.

And not every one has personally met the Emperor or Vader, the Empire is a bit too big and there are too many SDs vor them to have visited them all. Sure, rumors and stories go around, but the actual thing ...

The same goes for the placement of only incompetent selfish bumbling idiots as Moffs all around who fractured the Empire further. Makes me cringe adhering to the age old cliché of brutal stupid bullies to get the job of villain. Considering the political backstabbing and military actions you can't get that high without a good amount of brain.

But, again, that is MY opinion on the thing. Go with what suit your games and tastes the best.

To each their own. I personally think you are badly underestimating how much damage even the temporary loss of communications would be to a fleet under battle conditions especially when the opposing fleet doesn't have that issue.

And than there's the whole issue of how much damage losing Palpatine, Vader, The Death Star, and Executor would do to the morale of the imperial soldiers and officers. I can't personally think of any precedent for a military force losing its chief of state, heir apparent, most powerful fortress, and flagship or command unit plus flag officers attached to said ship or unit in one engagement and managing to win the battle. The war possibly but not the battle that all those losses took place at.

I can... Several medieval kings, and Nazi Germany. Effectively, also WW II Imperial Japan.

The Nazis lost the battle that was going on when Hitler committed suicide.

More correctly, "while Hitler" not "when Hitler". But, yeah, Hitler, and the best remaining units, and the the Deputy Reichsfürer... In all such cases, the net result was prompt takeover by the other side, and great confusion in the troops.

Except Japan - The Emperor's surrender (coupled with the loss of High Command, and the suicides of several elite units in battle against overwhelming odds) basically was much the same. The Emperor was expecting to be executed... he was happy it didn't come to that. Still, it was a rapid change of government, and many thought him to not be the emperor because he did surrender. Fortunately (for both the US and Japan), most of the people believed him.

Collapses of high command coupled with major battles lost usually collapse central authority.

The thing is, once the Death Star went with Palpatine and Vader onboard, the Rebels had won -- anything else after that is just how badly they're mauled afterward.

And my proposed alteration doesn't change this. The Rebels still accomplish their goals at Endor, but the price that they have to pay is FAR greater and the aftermath doesn't involve total splintering of the Empire.

We're thinking on the same wavelengths then -- minus the " reborn Palpatine " thing. Ditto for RogueCorona's idea of the surviving Imps at Endor rallying after the retreat and counter-attacking... I believe a common element for both of us though is -- and one shared with -- is that it puts paid to any 'rapid' " drive Coreward "... not least since without the fracturing and warlords we get " the Empire minus Palpatine and Vader ."

I still envision a Guri-like HRD of Palpatine sitting on the throne and controlled from behind the scenes by X.

I'm still not entirely sure who I want X to be.

Palpatine Reborn is intended to involve the efforts of the Prophets of the Dark Side at continuing the works of Plagueis that they were ordered to develop by Palpatine. There's no guarantee it will ever work.

I still envision a Guri-like HRD of Palpatine sitting on the throne and controlled from behind the scenes by X.

I'm still not entirely sure who I want X to be.

Palpatine Reborn is intended to involve the efforts of the Prophets of the Dark Side at continuing the works of Plagueis that they were ordered to develop by Palpatine. There's no guarantee it will ever work.

Wouldn't need to, they've already shown in the prequels the ability to speed grow clones, all it takes is something on a slightly smaller scale keeping the duplicate Palpatine's separate well those intended for the role and fine tune it so only the ones who can pass off as him when talking are used for that and those who can appear as him and so on.

They could easily use the excuse used at the start of A new Hope for whats happened to Palpatine and it would be true this time from a certain point of view !