I loved Thrawn, but wasn't a fan of the Vong. Then again, my knowledge of both is somewhat limited.

I didn't mind the character when he first appeared, but the stuff they later tied to him - namely the Empire of the Hand and all his work to prepare the galaxy for the coming of the Vong - ruined him for me.

I never even knew about that latter stuff. lol From the sounds of it, I should like being ignorant of them.

I loved Thrawn, but wasn't a fan of the Vong. Then again, my knowledge of both is somewhat limited.

I didn't mind the character when he first appeared, but the stuff they later tied to him - namely the Empire of the Hand and all his work to prepare the galaxy for the coming of the Vong - ruined him for me.

I never even knew about that latter stuff. lol From the sounds of it, I should like being ignorant of them.

This kind of thing happens a lot in the EU. They make two events that are unlinked and might be OK individually and then they try to cram something in between them or links back to characters that don't need to be be linked in and the whole thing becomes crappier because of it.

What a tangled web they wove, eh? :/

I loved Thrawn, but wasn't a fan of the Vong. Then again, my knowledge of both is somewhat limited.

I didn't mind the character when he first appeared, but the stuff they later tied to him - namely the Empire of the Hand and all his work to prepare the galaxy for the coming of the Vong - ruined him for me.

I never even knew about that latter stuff. lol From the sounds of it, I should like being ignorant of them.

This kind of thing happens a lot in the EU. They make two events that are unlinked and might be OK individually and then they try to cram something in between them or links back to characters that don't need to be be linked in and the whole thing becomes crappier because of it.

Yeah I personally find the theory that Palpatine was trying to prepare the galaxy for the Vong laughable.

Well then it's good there's a chance that a large chunk of the post endor EU might be ignored.

If I was to do a change to the endor battle, it would be that the rebel fleet was effectively wiped out. The empire didn't fall into chaos with the emperor. There is no battle meditation garbage controlling the fleet.

I also imagine that some career first imperial commanders would attempt to flee the battle only to be executed or arrested by junior officers loyal to the idea of the empire, rather than who is on the throne.

There would be survivors among the rebel fleet, but the rebel alliance would be shattered. The empire lets the few stragglers escape realizing that the power vacuum the death of the empire creates. There would be warlords rising up amongst from disloyal imps, but not as widespread as the current EU suggest.

The rebels become more of a battlestar galactica flotilla with home one standing in for that vessel.

The empire clamps down on the core worlds, while at the same time loosening its anti alien bias allowing resources like thrawn to be utilized.

I Fully Support this change in Happy's Campaign. I plan on doing this as well. I wont be including any EU after endor, Frankly all of it blows chunks.

This is a nice clean way to sever that tie..(hur hur..get it..TIE..n/m)

Any how. IT's clean, and effective.. DS blows up too soon. Heroes killed.. Nice.. clean slate for our own creation.

I definitely like a lot of what you're trying to do. I certainly beleive in maintaining a strong (weaker, yes, but still strong) Empire after the Battle of Endor. As a former Soldier I find it ridiculous to believe that the Empire was as incompetent as they are often portrayed to be. Looking at the state of things at the time the second Death Star is destroyed, I find it hard to believe that the battle doesn't end as a Rebel strategic victory and an Empire tactical victory. The Rebels destroyed the Death Star, the Executer, a good portion of the Imperial fleet present, and killed the Emperor and Darth Vader, which was actually more than they could have hoped for; however even a fully intact Rebel fleet would have been no match for the remaining Imperial fleet.

Though the Empire loses a significant portion of THAT fleet (not even the majority, just a statistically significant number) at the battle, I find it hard to believe that they did not still have considerable military power elsewhere in the universe. On the Earth today there are 40ish aircraft carriers. I would roughly equate them to being similar to a Victory Star Destroyer (based on size, crew, cost, and a few other things). That is one planet of 7 billion people supporting what is ostensibly 40 Victory Star Destroyers. This also doesn't count the other nearly 230 (minus the carriers) ships that the US Navy alone maintains.

Do yeah, I definitely agree that the Empire should still be strong (though slightly weakend) and still militarily and politically superior to the Rebellion. I like that you are taking steps also to pave the way for your PCs to become the heroes of the universe. I personally would go a little bit slower at it though, kill off or retire those main characters as you go along. Use them as useful NPCs, mentors, plot drivers, whatever. It could be especially useful in the beginning while your PCs are still very weak. Weak PCs do well with heroic type adventures anyway, so it isn't like they would be overshadowed by the current "heroes" of the Star Wars universe. Then as the campaign transitions to a more epic type story, you can make holes for your characters to step up and fill those high level roles. Yeah, I certainly may want one of my PCs to fill a very Mon Mothma or Leia Organa role in the future of the campaign, but I certainly don't feel that a freshly generated character needs to or should fill that role. That is my plan, anyway.

I also plan to start right after the Battle of Yavin. I think it will be fun for my players to do some behind the scenes stuff that assists (makes possible) some of the events that happen in the movies. Kind of like what playing Lord of the Rings Online is like, if any of you have had that experience. I can then also put them into the big battles (Hoth and Endor, for example), playing their own roles in making the battles turn out the way they do. Then, after Endor, when my PCs are just hopefully mid-tiered in power, I will disregard most of the EU and let them start shaping the galaxy.

Honestly I think everyone makes far too big a deal out of the Battle Meditation just because Thrawn, who was nowhere near the battle, theorized that loss of it was what crippled the Imperial fleet.

Lets look at what happened without bringing Battle meditation into it.

1: The Emperor and Vader were both dead, and the Death Star was destroyed, each a massive blow to morale IMO.

2: The loss of the Death Star crippled the Imperial Communications in the area since they were being routed through the Death Star, and the Imperial fleet's main communications ship was destroyed before the Death Star's shield went down.

3: Both the flagship, and the vessel which was supposed to take over as flagship should the Executor go down had been destroyed.

4: The admiral in command of the ship which was next in the chain of command was killed leaving his flag captain in tactical command of the fleet.

I'm not saying it would have been impossible for the Empire to win the battle after all that but it would be incredibly unlikely IMO. Personally if I wanted to do a post Endor campaign with the Empire stronger than the Alliance I would have the first Battle of Endor occur as it did in the flim but instead of the Imperial fleet fracturing after the retreat I would have it regroup and attack while the Alliance is still repairing the vessels that were damaged in, or they had captured at, the battle. The Alliance is forced to abandon the damaged vessels weakening it greatly and things continue from there.

Ya know, RogueCorona, it sounds like your description and HappyDaze's take differ mainly in describing subsequent losses versus the high-profile Rebel losses that are HappyDaze's point of divergence from canon... but in both cases, I arguably consider both cases -- and even your proposal -- to be Rebel victories because the Rebels got what they were aiming for: the removal of the Emperor and Darth Vader as well as the destruction of the second Death Star... although the destruction of Executor and the " main communications ship " (seemingly Pride of Tarlandia ) would have been notable blows to the Imperial Navy as well.

Really, your proposals both differ from canon mainly in the price paid by the Rebels, though I'd suggest that your proposal (of the Imperial survivors regrouping afterward to counterattack the Rebels while they were refitting/repairing and 'taking stock' of captured prizes) would mainly impact the Rebels' ability to quickly expand their fleet(s) in the wake of Endor, which the follow-on effect of impeding the Rebels' ability to drive on and let their momentum carry them Coreward.

Maybe Arvel Crynyd didn't show up for work that day, so he never crashed into that Star Destroyer, so it never crashed into the Death Star!

I think that Sate Pestage might prefer to work through an intermediary, a figurehead basically, to act as the public face of his regime while he does the day-by-day work of running the Empire himself as he did before. I nominate Grand Moff Ardus Kaine , successor to Grand Moff Tarkin. Part of this is his ties to COMPNOR, possibly allowing him to use their resources to get Imperial Loyalists to follow him. I might suggest at least one major Warlord, just to spice things up. Perhaps a far less successful Warlord Zsinj. Also, I think the Hutts might take this opportunity to expand their sphere of influence once again.

I'm rather in agreement with Gravis: once the Death Star was gone and Palpatine and Vader with it, the outcome was a Rebel strategic victory -- the destruction of two command ships ( Executor and Pride of Tarlandia thereafter) were " more than they could have hoped for " bonuses, as major as they were -- and the Imperials could only hope for a tactical " victory " in the sense of mauling the Rebels thereafter*, though Gravis proposed that even a Rebel tactical victory (in forcing Imperial withdrawal as per canon) wouldn't have affected the military balance directly because of Imperial naval strength elsewhere ... all interesting points here.

* I'm left thinking of the Battle of Glorieta Pass; the Confederate troops outnumbered and outflanked the Union troops enough to force the latter into a fighting withdrawal, only for other Union troops to happen upon the Confederates' lightly-guarded supply train -- the resulting Union raid thereof forced the " victor " at Glorieta Pass to turn around and go back, ending the Confederate campaign and eventually even forcing their territorial government to retreat to Texas!

I could never follow this concept of a "unhappy ending" for the Rebels after the battle of endor.

After the destruction of the Second Death star, the Executor, the death of Vader and the Emperor, the Morale of the Empire would be in the crapper. The best they could hope for was a retreat and regroup, and maybe hold some of the core worlds. The EU would be correct in thinking that every Grand Admiral, Admiral, Moff, and Grand moff would be trying to hold onto their piece of the pie with absolute authority, leading to Balkanization the Entire Empire

Strategically, after the destruction of the Second Death star, the Forest moon of Endor has zero value. With the Empire fleet in retreat, the Imperials on the ground best hope is a surrender as a way to get off the moon.

More better idea would to have Luke survive, but turn to the Dark side to defeat the Emperor and Vader, then take control of the Imperial Remnants. He disguise himself, or passes himself off as the Emperor for a while before he reveals himself. That way you have a plausible proxy for the Emperor to prevent the fragmentation of the Empire. Also you would have Leia distracted enough trying to save her brother from the Dark Side and leave the Leadership of the Rebellion weaker

kinnison: I don't quite agree re: what you propose as a " More better idea ", although I otherwise agree that as soon as the second Death Star was destroyed with Palpatine and Vader destroyed with it, there isn't an "unhappy ending" for the Rebels: at that point, no matter how badly they bled afterward, they'd gotten what they'd come for!

I could never follow this concept of a "unhappy ending" for the Rebels after the battle of endor.

After the destruction of the Second Death star, the Executor, the death of Vader and the Emperor, the Morale of the Empire would be in the crapper. The best they could hope for was a retreat and regroup, and maybe hold some of the core worlds. The EU would be correct in thinking that every Grand Admiral, Admiral, Moff, and Grand moff would be trying to hold onto their piece of the pie with absolute authority, leading to Balkanization the Entire Empire

Most of the Empire would never know, at least if the fleet at Endor were mostly destroyed. The first Moff/Grand-Moff to find out would fake up a funeral for the Emperor, nominate a puppet, and carry on.

See, most morale hits aren't of the "A fleet went missing" but "straggling survivors are raging into neighboring ports" kind of things.

And it wouldn't be untoward for said moff to "don the armor" of Vader and take over that way...

Not to mention that Sage Pestage and his administration ran the day-to-day operations for the Empire. Vader and Empereror missing/dead? Looks like we need a new figurehead, otherwise just carry on.

HD, I wouldn't have the DSII blow up the moon. Blowing up a planet produces a LOT of debris. With the DSII being in orbit and with sheilds down it would have taken a major pounding and I would say that it's chances of surviving would be slim to none. Neither fleet would survive either. I doubt even home one would suvive a rock the size of texas slamming into it.

You could also modify the original landing idea and just have the imperial fleet bombard the area from orbit after the rebels flee. It's highly doubtful that anyone could survive it.

Not to mention that Sage Pestage and his administration ran the day-to-day operations for the Empire. Vader and Empereror missing/dead? Looks like we need a new figurehead, otherwise just carry on.

No new figurehead would be necessary if a HRD in the Emperor's image is used. Along with the Prophets shepherding the ruling council (by force using the Hands of the Emperor when necessary) and Pestage and the others carry on day to day affairs of the Empire as though nothing has happened.

HD, I wouldn't have the DSII blow up the moon. Blowing up a planet produces a LOT of debris. With the DSII being in orbit and with sheilds down it would have taken a major pounding and I would say that it's chances of surviving would be slim to none. Neither fleet would survive either. I doubt even home one would suvive a rock the size of texas slamming into it.

You could also modify the original landing idea and just have the imperial fleet bombard the area from orbit after the rebels flee. It's highly doubtful that anyone could survive it.

Home One won't be surviving in any case - it will be the casualty of the DS II's opening superlaser shot. As for the debris of the moon being vastly destructive to both sides, that is something I might use. It could cripple both fleets but allow an opening for the Rebels to escape.

A latest thought on the subject: I can imagine the " put on a figurehead or a double, otherwise carry on as before " happening irrespective of which specific changes you've proposed to Endor is the one in question -- though presumably the increased Rebel losses will hamper their ability to " put out the word " the way that they did in canon.

A latest thought on the subject: I can imagine the " put on a figurehead or a double, otherwise carry on as before " happening irrespective of which specific changes you've proposed to Endor is the one in question -- though presumably the increased Rebel losses will hamper their ability to " put out the word " the way that they did in canon.

The Rebels can try to put out the truth, but even they can't really be sure that the HRD isn't actually Palpatine, and anyone trying to get to the truth is likely to draw the attention of the Emperor's Hands. Moreover, the HRD is only a placeholder until the reborn Emperor* is found.

* Rather than a clone, I'm looking at an extension of D. Plaguesis experiment that produced Anakin. In this case, Palpatine will be reborn as a child somewhere within the Empire. The Prophets will be searching for him and keeping the Empire running while he matures.

Why start at Endor? Palpatine dead, war is over. No more rebellion.

Why start at Endor? Palpatine dead, war is over. No more rebellion.

Palpatine might be dead, the war isn't even close to being over, and the Rebel Alliance might even be in more dire straights than before. Hopefully the PCs can step up and save the Galaxy, because they can't count on anyone from the movies to do it since they all died as heroes at Endor.

What HappyDaze said -- at best the Rebels grievously, perhaps mortally*, wounded the Empire, but of course it's still ticking and still kicking... it's the canon characters ' stories that ended at Endor.

* Considering my theory about the Galactic Empire-as-depicted-in-the-EU never having been meant (by Palpatine) to actually survive Palpatine...

Why did Luke not leave in time?

Wow you weigh a tone. It's clear how your subordinates feel about you. Here I am, a Rebel, dragging your sorry ass all the way through the Deathstar to this lauch bay and nobody has tried to stop me. Or offered to help. That's it save yourselves. Never mind the Rebel dragging your lord across the floor. Oh, a shuttle. That comes in handy. Almost there. Good thing too my back is killing me. Pause for a breath by this ramp.

"Let me look on you with my own eyes."

Ok daddy, I'll just take off your helmet. Put it down there. Completely ignore the blaring sirens as I gently remove the face mask. Yikes! You look like an egg that's just been cracked open. My what pretty eyes you'......

BANG!