Here is a selection of links that I keep to hand when running DW:
- Don't use the Errata weapon stats.
What is the reason for that? The consensus elsewhere on the forum seems to be that pre-Errata stats, especially the bolters, are really OP. I'm inclined to agree - I started running my first DW campaign recently, and one of the players, a Tactical Ultramarine, started to run around with a heavy bolter. Basically his stats (50+ BS, +20 for Bolter Mastery and +10 for Full Auto; 2d10+10 damage +2 for Bolter Mastery) mean he can easily kill anything head-on. It led, of course, to some educational experiences for me as a GM, like the proper NPC use of covers and flanking, but I'm planning to scale him back with Errata stats next time. What are your experiences? What led to preferring non-Errata stats?
Edited by musungu1. Remember that the Astartes are akin to angels and demigods to normal humans. While they have no real power, their significance as the avenging angels of the God Emperor cannot be overstated. The constant bowing and scraping of mere mortals can wear a bit thin after awhile, but normal humans should at least be visibly uncomfortable when in the presence of an Astartes.
2. Use the Errata Weapon stats or ff you don't like them, don't use them. There's no right answer here. I've run successful games both with and without them.
3. Most of everything else Brother Orpheo said is true.
4. Keep it simple. Only allow non-astartes in very special and rare circumstances, preferably after you have several games under your belt.
5. DW can be pretty complicated for a player new to 40K RP. DW characters have a ton of starting talents, traits and abilities that can be daunting to someone who just picked up the game. Use your first few sessions to familiarize your players with the setting and the mechanics.
Great tips, thank you guys!
I recommend using the Errata 'd weapon stats- the original ones reduce the challenge too much. Early in the DW Forums , there were several posts by gamers bragging about killing Hive Tyrants with one full-auto burst...
Beyond that, I suggest running at least one 'training' combat session so everyone (GM and players) can get a feel for what constitutes a legitimate threat to a Space Marine. I started out running a few sessions in the Watch Fortress' training arenas, pitting the Killteam against wave after wave of combat servitors (both individual 'Astartes-grade' ones from the Adversaries section of the DW rulebook, and Hordes of 'commercial-grade' gun servitors from the Adversaries section of the Dark Heresy rulebook).
The problem with the errated stats is that they are really (in my opinion, obviously I have no way of knowing what the actual design process was, but it seems that way to me) designed for Black Crusade, which has a different Unnatural Toughness Bonus mechanic and thus generally squishier creatures (go through the BC/OW material and look at how small Toughness Bonusses are compared to their Deathwatch counterparts). As a result there are lots of creatures in the published DW material that simply cannot really be hurt by post-errated weapons -- including some Space Marines!
So they're either over- or underpowered.
Which actually is why I stopped playing Deathwatch, really...
I haven't had this experience.
My players never had a hard time hurting things with the errata stats. I slaughtered plenty of PCs using them myself, even with the typically problematic nigh-invulnerable tech-priest.
Core stats are overpowered and have a really weird probability curve with lower static bonus. This is where heavy bolter horror stories live.
Errata stats can be underpowered and have a more stable probability curve, with fewer d10s (and thus fewer RFs) but higher statics damage bonus to make up for them. The problem here is really with bolters not doing enough damage to really hurt Chaos Space Marines barring special ammo.
Personally I prefer the errata a lot. Add a couple points to the static damage if anything.
As for tips: don't get suckered in to running 4-5 hours of combat as a game every single session. Throw in other stuff or you will get burnt out GMing, I guarantee it.
I also disagree with allowing non-Astartes in the party. It takes a specific kind of game to make it work. If you're new, I'd stick with the baseline party of Space Marines, it will be much easier on you.
Edited by KshatriyaI haven't had this experience.
My players never had a hard time hurting things with the errata stats. I slaughtered plenty of PCs using them myself, even with the typically problematic nigh-invulnerable tech-priest.
Hmm you know, looking at Mark of the Xenos, the critters are squishier than I remembered.
However the Iron Hands in Rising Tempest are close to unkillable with bolters.
Edited by bogi_khaosaHowever the Iron Hands in Rising Tempest are close to unkillable with bolters.
Use something else?
However the Iron Hands in Rising Tempest are close to unkillable with bolters.
Use something else?
The issue is -- they are not supposed to be unkillable with bolters.
The short story is, the post-errata stats mesh very well with Black Crusade and Only War, but not with Deathwatch -- due primarily to the different ways in which Unnatural Toughness works.
(Which BTW is why I think they were actually designed for Black Crusade and then put in the Deathwatch errata. That and a couple of other things.)
Edited by bogi_khaosaIs the issue still there with kraken rounds? I personally don't think the baseline bolter is or should be the be-all, end-all weapon for every situation. It's very versatile yes, but some enemies should shrug it off.
However the Iron Hands in Rising Tempest are close to unkillable with bolters.
Use something else?
The issue is -- they are not supposed to be unkillable with bolters.
The short story is, the post-errata stats mesh very well with Black Crusade and Only War, but not with Deathwatch -- due primarily to the different ways in which Unnatural Toughness works.
(Which BTW is why I think they were actually designed for Black Crusade and then put in the Deathwatch errata. That and a couple of other things.)
I totally agree that there are a few crappy, unbalanced stat-lines in the system.
Is the issue still there with kraken rounds? I personally don't think the baseline bolter is or should be the be-all, end-all weapon for every situation. It's very versatile yes, but some enemies should shrug it off.
Sure, but the class of "some enemies" should not include "Iron Hands Tactical Space Marines" and "Broadside Battlesuits" and "Tyrant Guard" and "Obliterators" and "Plague Marines."
None of these are supposed to be literally immune to bolt weapons unless they are being wielded by a PC that can get Righteous Fury.
(A couple of them have a damage soak of 18 including AP reduction, so they're not technically immune, but virttually so, since 1 wound will go through 20% of the time).
Compare -- in BC/OW virtually nothing, up to and including Greater Daemons , has a Toughness Bonus higher than 11. There is a reason for that.
Edited by bogi_khaosaAny time you bring high TB or the Machine Trait (from The Flesh Is Weak or other things) into play, it's going to cause trouble. Personally I haven't found a good fix aside from converting to BC Unnaturals, and that isn't likely to fly with my players, let alone figuring out the right conversions. A couple extra static bonus points to damage is a better option imo.
Also, idk, I see Vengeance rounds and Felling weapons as things to go after some of those things with. I am very against the bolter being the best choice in every situation. It's already formidable with all the special ammo.
Is the issue still there with kraken rounds? I personally don't think the baseline bolter is or should be the be-all, end-all weapon for every situation. It's very versatile yes, but some enemies should shrug it off.
Sure, but the class of "some enemies" should not include "Iron Hands Tactical Space Marines" and "Broadside Battlesuits" and "Tyrant Guard" and "Obliterators" and "Plague Marines."
None of these are supposed to be literally immune to bolt weapons unless they are being wielded by a PC that can get Righteous Fury.
(A couple of them have a damage soak of 18 including AP reduction, so they're not technically immune, but virttually so, since 1 wound will go through 20% of the time).
Compare -- in BC/OW virtually nothing, up to and including Greater Daemons , has a Toughness Bonus higher than 11. There is a reason for that.
It seems to me that Obliterators and Tyrant Guard in particular should be able to soak up a hell of a lot of Bolter fire. You either represent that by giving them a ton of damage mitigation, or you give them a huge bucket of wounds. If you give them too many wounds, however, Specialty weapons lose their potency.
I see your point regarding the other examples, Plague Marines in particular would be better represented by giving them a whole lot of Wounds.
That said, I still don't think that these are game breaking problems.
Any time you bring high TB or the Machine Trait (from The Flesh Is Weak or other things) into play, it's going to cause trouble. Personally I haven't found a good fix aside from converting to BC Unnaturals, and that isn't likely to fly with my players, let alone figuring out the right conversions. A couple extra static bonus points to damage is a better option imo.
Also, idk, I see Vengeance rounds and Felling weapons as things to go after some of those things with. I am very against the bolter being the best choice in every situation. It's already formidable with all the special ammo.
It certainly shouldn't be the best choice, but it should do something to heavy infantry.
It seems to me that Obliterators and Tyrant Guard in particular should be able to soak up a hell of a lot of Bolter fire. You either represent that by giving them a ton of damage mitigation, or you give them a huge bucket of wounds. If you give them too many wounds, however, Specialty weapons lose their potency.
I see your point regarding the other examples, Plague Marines in particular would be better represented by giving them a whole lot of Wounds.
That said, I still don't think that these are game breaking problems.
They should be able to take a lot of bolter fire, not literally be immune to it (which Tyrant Guard are).
I think that if Tyrant Guard get written up ever for BC/OW (or a future DW edition) they will have something like TB11 (pretty much the maximum in BC/OW for something that is not a Monstrous Creature), AP10, which gives them a damage soak of 17 vs. bolter fire.
I'm pretty sure that's what a Carnifex will have as well, since IIRC they have identical Toughness and Armour Save statlines in TT. But twice as many Wounds.
I do not believe that it is gamebreaking, though.
Edited by bogi_khaosaI don't see Tyrant Guard as being akin to heavy infantry. They're more like bodyguards who are also tanks. Trygons are more like heavy infantry. IMO.
I guess I don't have a problem with some weapons being flat-out ineffective against certain enemies. Frag grenades are typically worthless vs anything but Hordes, but I never see people up in arms about that. For a Tyrant Guard you want a lascannon…but that same lascannon is almost worthless versus a swarm of gaunts. The KT's power is in its combined-arms approach, not in the baseline weapon being uber alles.
I really don't have a problem with the idea that if your Kill-team goes up against a walking tank like a Carnifex or a Tyrant Guard with nothing but their basic kit, they're going to get mulched. I pretty much echo what Kshatriya said, these things are why Heavy Weapons were invented.
I really don't have a problem with the idea that if your Kill-team goes up against a walking tank like a Carnifex or a Tyrant Guard with nothing but their basic kit, they're going to get mulched. I pretty much echo what Kshatriya said, these things are why Heavy Weapons were invented.
They have Toughness of 6 and armour saves of 3+ in TT (which roughly corresponds to the difficulty of hurting them with a 2d10 + 5 Pen 5 Tearing attack in the RPG, which I assume is why their TB and AP were chosen to be the way they are).
What makes them walking tanks is their number of wounds, not the difficulty of injuring them.
I do however agree that this is not a game-breaking issue, with the exception of Iron Hands Tactical Marines and broadside battlesuits and suchlike.
Edited by bogi_khaosaI believe they have to be more balanced for things to hurt them in TT than they do in the RPG.
I am sometimes surprised at the large amount of AP, (multiplied) TB, AND Wounds that some Elite and Master enemies have. But, I'm happy that sometimes standing and shooting isn't the solution, especially if you don't have the right gun. Makes players get more creative.
Guh. This conversation has reminded me that it has been entirely too long since I last played Deathwatch.
I believe they have to be more balanced for things to hurt them in TT than they do in the RPG.
I am sometimes surprised at the large amount of AP, (multiplied) TB, AND Wounds that some Elite and Master enemies have. But, I'm happy that sometimes standing and shooting isn't the solution, especially if you don't have the right gun. Makes players get more creative.
Exactly this. My players came up with some amazingly imaginative and often suicidal tactics when fighting things that they were otherwise ill-equipped to fight.
Edited by khimaeraDon't get me wrong -- they should be hard to hurt, and you should probably be using heavy weapons on them, but the idea of them doing no damage at all is I think goofy.
In fact, a post-errata Astartes heavy bolter cannot harm a Carnifex. A multimetal, a krak missile, a plasma cannon will barely do it.
I am going to stare into my crystal ball and scry into the future and guess that if Deathwatch 2nd Ed. ever rolls around -- extrapolating the stats used in BC and OW -- a Carnifex and a Tyrant Guard will have TB12 AP10. Tyrant Guard will have about 50 Wounds and Carnifexes about 100 (why? Because that's how you get them to perform like they do against a lascannon in TT, where they will take about 2 and 4 shots, respectively).
Edited by bogi_khaosa