The extra damage dice is definitely fast and easy Svs.

I still like the idea of added damage in enclosed spaces though. Both myself and my co-GM are old SR players so the chunky salsa effect was the exact inspiration for that House Rule.

As for complication, I can see your point. In effect though, a grenade either hits or misses. If it hits, it blows the hell out of at least one target. To be honest, we've written that House Rule but we almost only use it on direct hits. For some reason it offended the heck out of both of us that you could drop a 'nade in someone's lap and have them shrug it off.

@Oprheo - yes, we know how Accurate works, and its OP. Yeah low ammo. In OW long las has clip of 40, sniper rifle 20. Very low.

The GMs' answer to accurate-weapon-using players is to force them to keep taking non-aim half actions (a situation that is not hard to set up). Without that the long las is a glorified stub revolver.

Also like I said above I'm pretty sure it should be per 2 extra DoS, not 2 DoS.

Yeah we run with the 5 DoS thing as well. Its clearly just an oversight.

To be honest though, after we nerfed certain Heavy Weapons in our House Rules, Accurate was a serious concern to the group as it seemed certain to be the new "go to" for ranged builds. When something is comparatively too good, it probably means it needs to be looked at.

Of course, we fixed it by just adding House Rules for burst and semi-auto fire. Again, this was inspired by Shadowrun as we incorporated the idea of Focused Bursts and Wide Bursts. Wide bursts function just as rapid fire does now: More hits. Focused Bursts allows you to trade additional hits as added damage rather than just a new hit.

Essentially, what we have ended up with is that sniper weapons are kings of single target damage, rapid fire weapons are versatile and useful all-rounders while heavy weapons are either for area suppression or anti-vehicle.

Its been a work in progress but our table is quite happy with it, so far.

Yeah we run with the 5 DoS thing as well. Its clearly just an oversight.

To be honest though, after we nerfed certain Heavy Weapons in our House Rules, Accurate was a serious concern to the group as it seemed certain to be the new "go to" for ranged builds. When something is comparatively too good, it probably means it needs to be looked at.

Of course, we fixed it by just adding House Rules for burst and semi-auto fire. Again, this was inspired by Shadowrun as we incorporated the idea of Focused Bursts and Wide Bursts. Wide bursts function just as rapid fire does now: More hits. Focused Bursts allows you to trade additional hits as added damage rather than just a new hit.

Essentially, what we have ended up with is that sniper weapons are kings of single target damage, rapid fire weapons are versatile and useful all-rounders while heavy weapons are either for area suppression or anti-vehicle.

Its been a work in progress but our table is quite happy with it, so far.

Well as I said in my experience it is quite easy to gimp characters using accurate just by playing the enemies intelligently to reduce his available number of actions.

Pin him (this is the big one). Force him to duck behind a wall (getting into and out of cover being a half action I believe), so he can't pop up, aim, shoot, pop down in the same round). Make him move.

If you do that his gun just does 1d10+3 damage, or he has to spend 2+ rounds to get a bonus, or he has to risk something.

In my IRL DH1 game last week we played the climax of The Black Sepulchre. In it, the party squares off against a giant, scary daemon thing with 29 wounds. One of my players, before the daemon even got to act, dealt 27 damage* after toughness reduction.

He did this not with a sniper rifle, but with a pistol with the Accurate quality (Fate Bringer, IH). Snipers themselves aren't the problem - it's Accurate that leads to ridiculousness.

* RAW, Accurate's bonus damage dice don't trigger RF - a rule we've never played with. After this incident I see why it was added.

Accurate can't get the bonus damage on pistols, only Basic Weapons.

I agree accurate is bull.

My current idea for a solution is accurate remains the same, BUT the weapon needs to be braced if you want the bonus damage effect. So you can still get the +10 to hit, but if you want your 3D10 you need to commit a turn, and it makes you easy prey in close range combats

Bogi, that's one reason we wanted to keep Accurate as it is, rather than handicapping it. Its one of the few things that could be considered marginally tactical in this game, so getting rid of it didn't appeal.

That said, we didn't want Accurate to invalidate 90% of the other ranged weapons on the weapon lists. So we settled on a solution that has so far suited us fairly well.

As a general rule, I would much rather find a way to add more viable options, rather than just knee jerk nerfing a solid performing ability/weapon/quality.

It doesn't really invalidate them, because it is near-worthless unless you are stationary; nor can it do suppressing fire.

Though I agree it could stand with requiring being braced or suchlike.

Well, to be clear I say this from my point of view, and that of the gamers at our table.

But by RAW, Accurate is simply too good to passup. And if its too good not to take, it means non-Accurate weapons get sidelined, which was what I meant by invalidated.

In my campaign we have an unfortunate 'tradition' of rolling badly for grenade damage, to the point where they are mostly considered 'joke' weapons, despite having a potential damage of 20 . Maybe a special rule setting a frag grenade's minimum damage based on proximity to the center of the blast might be in order...?

Sniper weapons are a double-edged sword: too weak, and they are utterly pointless, but too effective and they utterly dominate combat- and let's face it, the sniper Standard Operating Procedure of taking up a hidden position at a distance and picking off targets makes for **** boring rpg combat. I have no real suggestion here- just say'n...

In my campaign we have an unfortunate 'tradition' of rolling badly for grenade damage, to the point where they are mostly considered 'joke' weapons, despite having a potential damage of 20 . Maybe a special rule setting a frag grenade's minimum damage based on proximity to the center of the blast might be in order...? Sniper weapons are a double-edged sword: too weak, and they are utterly pointless, but too effective and they utterly dominate combat- and let's face it, the sniper Standard Operating Procedure of taking up a hidden position at a distance and picking off targets makes for **** boring rpg combat. I have no real suggestion here- just say'n...

I was thinking of just giving grenades 2d10 + 5 damage.

@bogi - pinning is an option. But they dont have to move at all, unless facing overwhelming opposition, but then, combat is pointless, and you just run, and look for other solutions.

They can simply stand in cover, popping only head and arms, and wrapped in camo cloak. -30 to hit, and if you didn't make called shot, you have about 70% of hitting the wall.

Oh that reminds me. Called shots sucks very very hard. I'll edit my first post.

You make them move by throwing blast or spray weapons at them, which require them to dive out of the blast radius or take damage, taking them out of cover (or at least away from the wall, making them have to move back to the wall, sucking up their actions).

That said, I am not opposed to requiring a Full Action Aim.

In my campaign we have an unfortunate 'tradition' of rolling badly for grenade damage, to the point where they are mostly considered 'joke' weapons, despite having a potential damage of 20 . Maybe a special rule setting a frag grenade's minimum damage based on proximity to the center of the blast might be in order...? Sniper weapons are a double-edged sword: too weak, and they are utterly pointless, but too effective and they utterly dominate combat- and let's face it, the sniper Standard Operating Procedure of taking up a hidden position at a distance and picking off targets makes for **** boring rpg combat. I have no real suggestion here- just say'n...

I was thinking of just giving grenades 2d10 + 5 damage.

Even better, you get a lot more guaranteed damage.

16 average damage is I think too high. That's higher than a bolter's maximum damage.

Go 1d10+8.

In my campaign we have an unfortunate 'tradition' of rolling badly for grenade damage, to the point where they are mostly considered 'joke' weapons, despite having a potential damage of 20 . Maybe a special rule setting a frag grenade's minimum damage based on proximity to the center of the blast might be in order...?

Sniper weapons are a double-edged sword: too weak, and they are utterly pointless, but too effective and they utterly dominate combat- and let's face it, the sniper Standard Operating Procedure of taking up a hidden position at a distance and picking off targets makes for **** boring rpg combat. I have no real suggestion here- just say'n...

Once a player dropped a grenade at his feet to commit suicide (RP reason) he rolled double 1s.

IRL a sniper's standard tactic is shoot and scoot. This is because when a Sniper picks off his first target every bad guy around him will fire EVERYTHING they've got at him. This will lead to suppression and wounding at a prodigeous rate if the sniper does not move. Additionally, Enemies will not remain static! They will move as rapidly as they can in order to close with the sniper. Additionally, Bad guys can and will often have various heavy weapons! (You won't laugh at the relatively humble heavy stubber if you're on the receiving end!) If and when they get close, Flamers will ruin your snipers day pretty quick whether he's in cover or not! Being on fire sucks too! Also, Many situations will not allow your sniper to get a good angle on his target. In CQB situations said sniper is a meat shield with an expensive club!

The point is, as mentioned earlier, If the Gm does not necessarily cater to the sniper's desires the group may once again find the need to carry other weapons! Also, Remember the "what's good for the goose" rule: If the players want to play with lot's of snipers, why can't you? A Sniper rifle is only a Scarse availability weapon. Hardly beyond the reach of an enemy Heretic. Perhaps one holed up in a window high up outside the acolyte's Hideout?

Your players will quickly develop their own countermeasures or TPK's will result!

Well, accurate needed a damage boost from the original version. I mean, in my first group the Tech-Priest wips out his long las, aims and rolls good and does ... 4 damage.

The latest escapade from my current Assassin where he snipes a drug dealer resulted in just 16 damage .. enough to kill a simple human.

So far accurate weapons have not outshined the other ones in my rounds.

Guns with burst or full auto can generate several hits which require several DoS in Dodge to avoid getting hit unlike the sniper rifles where a simple Dodge is suffice.

If players try to munchkin with Sniper rifles there are several ways to counter them.

Suppression fire is a valid options to to pin someone to get you close combat guys closer.

Grenades (even Smoke) are also an option to make (N)PCs move to avoid damage and/or penalties.

If the standard Frags are not making enough damage use the heavier Frags from the Inquisitors Handbook, molotov cocktails (aka Firebombs), simple Smoke to hand out penalties (or even blind fire) or simply switch of the light.

I want to see your sniper hit something when there is nothing to see.

Flame/Spray Weapons are short ranged but force him to move too, ruining his aim.

Let someone sneak up on them while they stare down their scopes.

Use other snipers against them. What the players can they opponents can do too.

Yeah the problem with smoke, blind or sniper rifles is that they are utilized by highly trained, and well equiped troops. And they dont come up that often.

Yes I know you can utilize different tactics. But most of the time, it doesnt make sense, that heretics are equipped specially to counter the PCs. It can happen sometimes, and then, the PC are in serious trouble.

Erm ... what?

Hive gangs can like present day street gangs make up several thousand members (eg: Crips, the Latin Kings, MS-13 (Mara Salvatrucha), Neta, and the Bloods).

If they are in the drug trade (har har) they are most likely armed with tons of guns, pistols, shotguns, and (considering the high armament in the universe) hunting rifles and autoguns. Crude explosives (nail bombs), mines and grenades are not uncommon in hive (gang) wars and riots, and all that usually requires the deployment of the PDF to quell them.

No really, remember that the sectors of a hive often contain several hundred thousand to several million people, a Hive is a New York topped uppon another New York atop another ... and that the street gangs are therefore as big if not bigger.

Start a shoot-out with one of their outposts/chapters and you could get into a whole lot of trouble.

Edit: What i mean is that it is not that uncommon to run into someone who has access to what we consider military hardware.

As a GM i'm stingy with the heavy stuff (rocket and missile launchers, mortars, ...) but i don't sweat handing out the small stuff into the hands of criminals and heretics. I'm currently AFB, but hunting rifles and autoguns have an Availability of Common right?

Seems legit to me to hand them out.

Erm ... what? Hive gangs can like present day street gangs make up several thousand members (eg: Crips, the Latin Kings, MS-13 (Mara Salvatrucha), Neta, and the Bloods). If they are in the drug trade (har har) they are most likely armed with tons of guns, pistols, shotguns, and (considering the high armament in the universe) hunting rifles and autoguns. Crude explosives (nail bombs) and grenades are not uncommon in hive (gang) wars and riots, and all that usually requires the deployment of the PDF to quell them. No really, remember that the sectors of a hive often contain several hundred thousand to several million people, a Hive is a New York topped uppon another New York atop another ... and that the street gangs are therefore as big if not bigger. Start a shoot-out with one of their outposts/chapters and you could get into a whole lot of trouble.

Even if the scale of this is off, its worth noting that Necromunda shows as a precident that Hive gangers can and do have the resources to aquire everything from grenades to anti-tank rifles (las cannons). There is literally no reason to suspect they wouldn't have access to this kind of equipment, at least in small numbers.

Cultists are even more likely to be armed with this kid of equipment, given that they are (usually) aiming for an end-goal that is some form of armed uprising.

Yeah the problem with smoke, blind or sniper rifles is that they are utilized by highly trained, and well equiped troops. And they dont come up that often.

This is where you are going wrong. These weapons are utilised by specifically trained soldiers within an organised military . Cults are a bunch of rebels using what ever they can get their hands on (which in some cases can be significant, up to and including tanks). A well prepared cult will have access to almost all of this equipment. Its just less a case of 'Jones has completed sniper training and that his his designated role' and more 'Jones can shoot a sump rat in the arse from 100 meters away, give him the sniper rifle'

I remember a Rogue Trader selling armed Sentinel walkers to an underhive gang on Clove, if that helps anyone

IRL a sniper's standard tactic is shoot and scoot. This is because when a Sniper picks off his first target every bad guy around him will fire EVERYTHING they've got at him. This will lead to suppression and wounding at a prodigeous rate if the sniper does not move. Additionally, Enemies will not remain static! They will move as rapidly as they can in order to close with the sniper. Additionally, Bad guys can and will often have various heavy weapons! (You won't laugh at the relatively humble heavy stubber if you're on the receiving end!) If and when they get close, Flamers will ruin your snipers day pretty quick whether he's in cover or not! Being on fire sucks too! Also, Many situations will not allow your sniper to get a good angle on his target. In CQB situations said sniper is a meat shield with an expensive club!

Well, if we are talking RL snipers, the primary reason they exfiltrate often is actually to avoid enemy counter-snipers and designated marksmen. Lying still, with a long barrelled weapon makes you an ideal target for another sniper. Especially if you reveal your position by firing repeatedly without moving.

Generally, snipers don't expose themselves to regular infantry, and are not really in danger from them. The relative helplessness a regular infantryman feels when exposed to sniper fire is one of the reasons snipers are so feared and hated.

Of course, RL sniper combat is by RPG standards a really tedious affair. Even Hollywood only manages to make it palatable by removing large parts of the process, focusing on those times when the sniper is forced into unusual circumstances. The hours and hours spent in the stalking process are generally disregarded or montaged just to get it out of the way.

Dark Heresy "sniper" combat is more akin to being a Designated Marksman. You're the guy in the squad or the group with the high powered, long ranged weapon who's purpose (in RL) is to be the counter-sniper or pick off enemy heavy weapon teams.

Realistically, Accurate should not just be dependent on the attacker. It should be just as important that the target is stationary, meaning Accurate should really only gain its full damage bonus against targets that are also Aiming, Bracing or in some other fashion not just stationary but actually motionless. A trooper hugging the dirt and firing wildly from behind cover would not be viable for the full Accurate bonus, but an enemy sniper taking his Aim action or an enemy machine gunner crewing his heavy stubber would be.

To achieve that effect, Aim actions would have to function somewhat like Overwatch or delayed actions. In that, even if taken with a Half Action all other actions for the round must be taken first. This would add another layer to combat, but also a fair amount of complication.

I can understand why such an option was not adopted into the game, even if it is something I think would enhance the tactical aspects of DH combat.