The 5 big wishes

By GauntZero, in Dark Heresy Second Edition Beta

I strongly agree with these sugestions. Espacially the first one. Dodge is to binary for my taste.

1) Yup, I'd prefer opposed Evading. However, there's so many strong opinions on both sides of that one that I think it's kind of begging for a grand compromise of some sort. I offered a suggestion for including both opposed Evading and UNopposed Evading in the thread on that subject.

2) I think the Fatigue system looks pretty good now that it's basically like Beta1.

3) I'm fine with the Lore Skills

4) I'm fine with Called Shot. Always thought it should be tough to hit a body part vs. the whole person. Needing the extra time of a Full Action makes sense to me. IMO, making Called Shot tough helps maintain the importance of cover.

5) I see your point here. They've greatly curtailed the actual narrative divination, that was much stronger in both DH1 & Beta1. They seem to have stuck to much more combat practical applications in Beta2. I will say, I don't mind that the narrative diving powers be expensive - true diviners are supposed to be rare.

In your support, I do miss DH1's Psychometry, Personal Augury & Soul Sight - and I liked the tables those powers came with . I would want narrative diviner powers to come with a decent structure to help the GM apply them. Those DH1 powers offered some decent structure.

1.) Cover lost importance due to "Nowhere to hide".

2.) Called shots lost importance due to "Nowhere to hide"

3.) Called shots are useles ever since, as they get an effective -30 penalty AND need a full action (which is another +10 you dont get for aiming) --> -40 compared to a standard attack ? Really ? Thats a joke.

And then the target can still make a binary dodge. Great.

Clearly the Nowhere to Hide talent reduces the effectiveness of cover - that's its purpose - but I don't agree that cover's importance has been reduced as much as you suggest:

---For one thing, your assertion implies a somewhat ubiquitousness of this talent among PCs & NPCs - some will have it but I wouldn't assume it's quite that widespread. A very substantial amount of the time the attacker is not going to have this talent.

---The talent, while increasing the reduction of cover when cover is reduced , doesn't increase the likelihood of cover being reduced. So even the relatively low 8-AP of Storage Crates isn't going to be exceeded all the time by average weaponry. The 12-AP of barricades is going to go unexceeded quite a bit of the time. The 16-AP of thick iron is pretty safe...and plasteel at 32-AP is extremely safe, as always. So there is a wide disparity in the effect of this talent on different kinds of cover.

----Associated with the item directly above, the higher AP covers are not going to be particularly affected by this talent without premium weaponry.

All the points above also apply to reduce the Nowhere to Hide talent's macro effect on Called Shot. To wit, a significant percentage of ranged attackers are not going to have this talent - so they're going to consider making a Called Shot because it's available to any attacker.

I do see your point that with Beta2 Called Shot has increased in difficulty a great deal - no doubt about it. What causes me to come to a different conclusion about it though, is I've always thought that Called Shot should be harder.

In DH there are 6 hit locations, so with Called Shot you've roughly got a target 1/6 as big as you would otherwise. In DH1 I thought -20% just wasn't enough to reflect a target roughly 1/6 the size. Then Beta1 reduces that to +0% and just 1 Action Point! Of course, given my fundamental opinion regarding the target being 1/6 the size, you can imagine I was appalled at the virtually free Called Shot of Beta1...talk about a cover-killer!

I know you're going to hate this, but I'm finally satisfied that the difficulty of hitting a target 1/6 the size is reasonably represented. Essentially, it makes Called Shot a really bad choice for average shooters - which I think makes sense. It makes Called Shot a dubious choice for decent shooters - which again, I think makes sense....there's a good reason that law enforcement doesn't try to shoot the guns out of people's hands. With the current Called Shot rule, you'd better be a damned good shot ! IMO, that's appropriate.

One man's opinion. Cheers

then why does shooting at a servo skull only need a half action, but shooting on a living one a full action ?

Called Shot needs to be changed back to a modifier, I think this would solve half of the problems here.

1) Yup, I'd prefer opposed Evading. However, there's so many strong opinions on both sides of that one that I think it's kind of begging for a grand compromise of some sort. I offered a suggestion for including both opposed Evading and UNopposed Evading in the thread on that subject.

2) I think the Fatigue system looks pretty good now that it's basically like Beta1.

3) I'm fine with the Lore Skills

4) I'm fine with Called Shot. Always thought it should be tough to hit a body part vs. the whole person. Needing the extra time of a Full Action makes sense to me. IMO, making Called Shot tough helps maintain the importance of cover.

5) I see your point here. They've greatly curtailed the actual narrative divination, that was much stronger in both DH1 & Beta1. They seem to have stuck to much more combat practical applications in Beta2. I will say, I don't mind that the narrative diving powers be expensive - true diviners are supposed to be rare.

In your support, I do miss DH1's Psychometry, Personal Augury & Soul Sight - and I liked the tables those powers came with . I would want narrative diviner powers to come with a decent structure to help the GM apply them. Those DH1 powers offered some decent structure.

1.) Cover lost importance due to "Nowhere to hide".

2.) Called shots lost importance due to "Nowhere to hide"

3.) Called shots are useles ever since, as they get an effective -30 penalty AND need a full action (which is another +10 you dont get for aiming) --> -40 compared to a standard attack ? Really ? Thats a joke.

And then the target can still make a binary dodge. Great.

Clearly the Nowhere to Hide talent reduces the effectiveness of cover - that's its purpose - but I don't agree that cover's importance has been reduced as much as you suggest:

---For one thing, your assertion implies a somewhat ubiquitousness of this talent among PCs & NPCs - some will have it but I wouldn't assume it's quite that widespread. A very substantial amount of the time the attacker is not going to have this talent.

---The talent, while increasing the reduction of cover when cover is reduced , doesn't increase the likelihood of cover being reduced. So even the relatively low 8-AP of Storage Crates isn't going to be exceeded all the time by average weaponry. The 12-AP of barricades is going to go unexceeded quite a bit of the time. The 16-AP of thick iron is pretty safe...and plasteel at 32-AP is extremely safe, as always. So there is a wide disparity in the effect of this talent on different kinds of cover.

----Associated with the item directly above, the higher AP covers are not going to be particularly affected by this talent without premium weaponry.

All the points above also apply to reduce the Nowhere to Hide talent's macro effect on Called Shot. To wit, a significant percentage of ranged attackers are not going to have this talent - so they're going to consider making a Called Shot because it's available to any attacker.

I do see your point that with Beta2 Called Shot has increased in difficulty a great deal - no doubt about it. What causes me to come to a different conclusion about it though, is I've always thought that Called Shot should be harder.

In DH there are 6 hit locations, so with Called Shot you've roughly got a target 1/6 as big as you would otherwise. In DH1 I thought -20% just wasn't enough to reflect a target roughly 1/6 the size. Then Beta1 reduces that to +0% and just 1 Action Point! Of course, given my fundamental opinion regarding the target being 1/6 the size, you can imagine I was appalled at the virtually free Called Shot of Beta1...talk about a cover-killer!

I know you're going to hate this, but I'm finally satisfied that the difficulty of hitting a target 1/6 the size is reasonably represented. Essentially, it makes Called Shot a really bad choice for average shooters - which I think makes sense. It makes Called Shot a dubious choice for decent shooters - which again, I think makes sense....there's a good reason that law enforcement doesn't try to shoot the guns out of people's hands. With the current Called Shot rule, you'd better be a damned good shot ! IMO, that's appropriate.

One man's opinion. Cheers

then why does shooting at a servo skull only need a half action, but shooting on a living one a full action ?

Ah, that's a good catch GZ. Those are the kinds of "loose hanging wires" worth keeping an eye out for during new edition creation. Along the same lines, I note that in this latest Update, FFG necessarily adjusted the Die Hard Talent at the same time that they changed the Blood Loss condition.

However, addressing your inference, I don't see how it makes the case that hitting a single body part, that in DH is 1/6 the size of a full humanoid target, really should not be that difficult of a shot. What exactly IS the case to be made that hitting a target 83% smaller isn't that big of a deal?

True marksmen and/or well-equipped/positioned snipers are appropriately a different story. Trying to hit a specific body part is never a walk in the park, but a marksman and/or sniper who engages his target from his long-range weapon's generous Short Range, takes the time for a Full Action of Aim, utilizes the weapon's Red-Dot Laser sight & has the skills of a sharpshooter - will continue to have Called Shot as a go-to.

However, a gunman popping around cover in a firefight, much less being out in the open facing a barrage of fire, and trying to specifically "wing" someone only in the right arm...that should be a highly improbable shot and perhaps nigh impossible for the average shooter.

Called Shot needs to be changed back to a modifier, I think this would solve half of the problems here.

"...solve half the problems here" certainly does sound like quite the laundry list of predicaments. I'm only aware of the one that GauntZero has posted regarding the modifiers for Puny sized targets (pg107). What are all the others?

Also, why do I need to aim for 1 certain location, if at least 2 are hit-able if the target is in cover.

I don't care if I hit head or body, I just wanna hit a part thats NOT in cover in this case (as the armour is very similar or even the same in most cases). That would be even easier as the possible hit area is bigger.