Only if they have "touched by the fates (x)" so usually named or elites, the grunts just do normal.

Maybe we need a talent that allows for more deadly criticals, something like Deadly Blows or "One-shot One Kill" that adds 1/2 rounded down of the characters' BS or WS to any crits dealt, including RF. Is that a thing? I haven't checked. I know the Assassin had something like this previously, maybe it should return as a Talent.

Thats what I suggested before. A talent that makes RF dealier by increasing the crit

Only if they have "touched by the fates (x)" so usually named or elites, the grunts just do normal.

Really. So they've gone back to the pre-BC/OW system.

I do not approve.

If ever there was a game mechanic that should be left up to GM caveat, it's the ability of NPCs to Righteous Fury. As far as I'm concerned, Touched by Fate implies,"If this NPC couldn't already RF, he can now. Also, he has Fate Points."

Actually I think that ZH/RF as implemented in BC/OW is necessary for the game to function effectively (roughly mimicking how things function in TT) without massive reworking. It's what lets large groups of guardsmen take out space marines, for instance (without the Horde rules).

It's also what prevents the "space marine can be on fire forever" problem.

But I am talking BC/OW here and don't really know how it works in DH2 so what am I talking about.

EDIT: I actually did the math on this a while ago and, if memory serves, four squads of stock OW Guardsmen will, statistically, Righteous Fury a stock BC Space Marine to death in about 5 rounds. If they're overloading their lasguns he'll likely be pretty beaten up by RF Criticals (possibly unconscious) before that though.

I tend to prefer the old 'exploding dice' version of Righteous Fury over the version from BC onward. It's much more dramatic, and usually ends up being the high point of a combat.

But if so, without the confirm roll - that takes too much time.

I disagree with this. The Confirm roll only adds a couple seconds; without it, Righteous Fury is purely random. This is a major pet peeve of mine: if RF is strictly random and does not take the relative 'heroic-ness' (or 'villain-ness') of the character into account, it ruins the concept of 'righteous' fury, i.e. a moment so heroic/diabolical that it attracted the attention of the gods. If a First Company Space Marine can't convert hits into Righteous Fury more often than a common Gretchin, then something is very wrong with the system, in my opinion...

Well in BC/OW "Zealous Hatred"/"Righteous Fury" is just a name. It's actually just a strong blow.

I have no idea how it is described in DH2. Why am I here again?

@bogi - players have to have the possibility to die in one shot, otherwise they'll get too cocky, and arrogant. Think of the psyker. Also they got fate points for re-rolls, and not dying. That way you can burn them more effectively.

YEah, and after some thought, I think the confirmation roll is neaded. Makes some suspense, and lets the player howl "RIGHTEOUS FURY!" (My players still yell ULRICS FURY!). The auto 1d5 critical doesnt do the trick anymore...

What do you guys think about making a hybrid of the first and second generation RF systems:

Any damage roll of '10' functions the same as it does in BC / OW - i.e. if damage is dealt, an additional 1d5 roll is made on the Crit table; if the damage doesn't overcome Armour/TB, 1 unavoidable point is dealt. This works the same for everyone - mighty heroes and nameless grunts alike.

Exceptional characters who have earned the attention of their god(s)- namely PCs, and NPCs with Fate Points- can also make a Confirmation roll. If successful, 1d10 is added to the damage total, in addition to the effects above (since characters are also getting automatic effects from the '10', I think it might be reasonable to require a Confirmation roll on any subsequent 10s, rather than just the first 10 as per the pre- BC systems).

Too much...?

Too much, I think. Maybe you add your WS/BS bonus to the damage on a RF in addition to a 1d5 critical.

10% of hits, 20% of hits with a Tearing weapon (= almost half the time if you manage a hit with all shots on a semi-auto boltgun burst) or a weapon with Gauss (OK Necrons only, or Sisters of Battle using their super powers of unbalancedness), 30% if it's Tearing and you have Flesh Render. Anything with 2d10 damage (most grenades) gets them 20% of the time; a lascannon gets one 50% of the time, and autocannon or krak missile 30% (per hit).

Hey whoa let's keep our probabilities accurate. That's 19% for 2d10, and 27.1% for 3d10.

I'm surprised so many people don't like the OW/BC way of doing it. I've always found it much more exciting, even went so far as to use it as a house rule before BC even existed.

The old way is just so lacklustre. You might fail the additional roll, you might only get like 1 or 2 bonus damage. And even a huge additional hit is just sort a "meh"
Oh wow, now the villain has 5 wounds instead of 10.
With the new system, the villain has 10 wounds, but his sword was just blown out of his hand, and he is leaking blood everywhere as he desperately tries to escape.

And it works back to make combat more interesting the other way. With a very limited pool of wounds, and not many chances to heal, you obviously can't have players taking D10 extra wounds all the time. They'd get messed up completely, so you can't let mooks have RF. But with the new system, it doesn't hurt them permanently, just causes injuries which spice up combat, and add a whole new layer of survival. You still have 8 wounds, but your agility bonus is halves as you lay bleeding out behind a pile of crates a long way from friends

I do like the narrative effect of OW better. My only issue is that the effects have no chance to be lethal (or a very very minor one).

Maybe add the attacks DoS over the first on the 1d5 crit effect ?

In that way also skill would be a factor.

So a good hit with 3 DoS would create a 1d5+2 crit effect with RF

Maybe add the attacks DoS over the first on the 1d5 crit effect ?

+1 damage per 2 DoS. Or Crippling Strike/Crack Shot that each provide +2 to critical damage. Both of these are tier 2 talents (in OW).

Mind you, I'd like something this too, but it's not essential.

I was talking about RF crit effects only.

All right, The narrative effect of the damage could exist, IF you say that something happens when character is "lightly wounded and heavily wounded".

Eg. PAIN - if character gets wounded, and his condition is lightly wounded he must test WP on +10/+20 or gain penalty -5/DoF or 10% to all his actions.

If he gets heavily wounded, he must test WP on -10/-20, or he'll get the same penalty eg -5/DoF on all actions.

This would also need some talents, talent descriptions and additional equipment. Eg stimm negates all pain penalties and fatigue, same as frenzy.

This could be also a skill "Resistance to Pain".

I was talking about RF crit effects only.

...and I was hoping you'd compare your effects to an effect that had been judged too powerful to apply to RF crits, as well as the only talent I can think of which adds damage based on DoS.

I'd rather have to bonus to crit-level on RF than bonus damage, in case you were wondering.

thats what I meant *confused*

1d5+X crit effect. No additional damage itself.

I think the current system works perfectly fine. I never liked the DH1 Righteous Fury because it was way too swingy -- you could kill a powerful enemy in a single hit if your dice exploded correctly. The current (BC/OW/DH2) system creates some interesting critical effects rather than just doing a boatload of extra damage. One of my players was shot in the arm by a lasgun and suffered a "5" Righteous fury effect -- he was knocked prone, Stunned, and had his arm rendered Useless for 10 rounds! To me, that's much more exciting than "whoops, I dealt 30 damage with my lasgun. Burn a Fate point."

But a talent like "Emperors Strike" could give you +2 or +3 on the 1d5 crit effect and make it possibly deadly (still not with a high %)

I think the current system works perfectly fine. I never liked the DH1 Righteous Fury because it was way too swingy -- you could kill a powerful enemy in a single hit if your dice exploded correctly. The current (BC/OW/DH2) system creates some interesting critical effects rather than just doing a boatload of extra damage. One of my players was shot in the arm by a lasgun and suffered a "5" Righteous fury effect -- he was knocked prone, Stunned, and had his arm rendered Useless for 10 rounds! To me, that's much more exciting than "whoops, I dealt 30 damage with my lasgun. Burn a Fate point."

Yeah, as a player it's a lot of fun to do a crapton of damage, but just last night a player one shot my boss in the first action of the combat. It was kind of anticlimactic.

e; in DH1 with exploding 10s

Yeah, as a player it's a lot of fun to do a crapton of damage, but just last night a player one shot my boss in the first action of the combat. It was kind of anticlimactic.

I think the current system works perfectly fine. I never liked the DH1 Righteous Fury because it was way too swingy -- you could kill a powerful enemy in a single hit if your dice exploded correctly. The current (BC/OW/DH2) system creates some interesting critical effects rather than just doing a boatload of extra damage. One of my players was shot in the arm by a lasgun and suffered a "5" Righteous fury effect -- he was knocked prone, Stunned, and had his arm rendered Useless for 10 rounds! To me, that's much more exciting than "whoops, I dealt 30 damage with my lasgun. Burn a Fate point."

e; in DH1 with exploding 10s

Yeah, we've had a few "whoopsie" moments like that. We were playing a game, and the GM's brother was along for the ride as a level 1 assassin, and we were mostly just telling him what to do the entire game. There was a lead up to the big reveal that the town Bishop was a Daemonhost, and after he revealed himself, he spread his wings, and jumped out the window, flying off into the night, ready to begin his invasion plans. New player asks if he can shoot the daemon. We chuckle and say "sure" but aim first. So he fires his hunting rifle, hits, rolls 3 dice, and gets RF twice in one shot, and proceeds to do something like 40 damage to the poor daemon, annihilating him and the plot.

As we do have a master, elite and troop category, why not differ RF ?

> troop dies

> elite gets 1d10 crit, also players

> master gets 1d5 crit

If you went down that path, a 1d5+2 crit or something might work better for the elite. Then you're guaranteed something nasty, but also have pretty much no chance of an outright kill.

As we do have a master, elite and troop category, why not differ RF ?

> troop dies

> elite gets 1d10 crit, also players

> master gets 1d5 crit

Wait, you WANT players to get hit with 1D10? Thats brutal