Looking at RF, I am not really satisfied with it in its current state,

Against elite opponents it doesnt feel powerful enough, and in general I miss an opportunity to improve it as a player.

Suggestion:

> make Deathdealer talent also increase RF critical effects of RF by BF/2 (rounded up) or WS/2 (rounded up) --> players have a chance to make their RF more deadly

> give called shots Vengeful (8) or improve their vengeful by 2 steps if they already have it (this would give players an option to increase their RF chances & also improve called shots). I think this would also nicely simulate the impacts of shots on an enemies weakness.

What do you think ?

I'm....disinclined to support this. RF is a pretty special event when it happens, particularly when it explodes a second or even a third (!) time. It is also made more likely by players love of all things Tearing. I like to treat RF as a random event, a treat for players to enjoy and revel in. Not something they may weaponize further than is already possible, that'd trivialize the whole occurrence in my mind.

Personally I'm not a fan of this because it would introduce the possibility of characters (NPCs and players alike) being one shotted on the first hit.

Deathdealer + BS 50 and an explosive chest hit with a RF roll of 5 means instant death no matter the targets wounds and defences (assuming you hit and do a point of damage of course).

Obviously this will depend on your view of the game (I imagine some players would love there to always be a chance to one shot an opponent), but it's not for me.

I like Righteous were it is. It's exciting when it happens, and disastrous when it happens to you. It's not really something you focus on getting, rather just a surprise present when it does happen, and you get to watch the boss try to crawl away on his now useless legs.

The furthest I'd go is adding the Chosens ability from Black Crusade as a Tier 3 talent. Just letting you choose to reroll RF results.

Also, while I would really like to see Veangeful actually put to use, putting it on called shots is a heeeell no.
Chainweapons and Bolters would become ridiculous, with a 28% chance to RF per HIT.

If thats what you want, go play Black Crusade. Legacy Heavy bolter with +3 RoF, and Tormenter. Everyone dies. 37% of RF per hit, 9 possible hits.

What I dont like is that RF cannot be deadly. 1d5 is not much.

Oh bugger.

My group forgot that and so did I (despite having run both BC and OW using the 1d5 crit table rule).

We've been using the 1d10 extra damage system. (Lots of 2e WFRP lately).

In light of that, hopefully my previous comments makes more sense

If you officially now change your mind with the boring 1d5 effect that currently is present, its ok ;D

Usually such a 1d5 effect won't do an effect which I'd love to have when RF happens.

Its ok, but not really cool.

1d10 would be too much maybe...thats why I'd like a talent to improve the 1d5 by a certain amount (2-3)

And also I think giving Called SHots a higher chance for RF wouldnt ruin it, as automatic shots also have the same benefit at the moment with multiple hits.

Why should a well placed shot be less likely to hit a sensible spot than 3 wildly fired shots with automatic fire.

Well, it instantly kills Mooks, and causes hilarious and flavourful effects on everyone else. Its quite easy to cripple someone out of a fight, or bleed them to death with RF.

I've been thinking a lot about BC, and it would be pretty cool to take a lot of the Legacy Weapon traits, and making them into talents. Would have to wait for a later book probably though.
Still there are things like: RF does D5+1, and once per game you can make it do D10-2
Which would be fun.

The average effect of RF is a crit3 and a minor effect that does not take an enemy out of combat at all. It maybe costs him an half action, knocks him prone or gives him some fatigue - not the cool effect I expect from righteous fury.

It should be scary to be hit by RF, and a 1d5+2 would be much more scary to be hit by (giving even a theoretical chance to die, even if not very likely still).

Also, if normally not doing damage, you do 1 damage instead. Wow - what a fury. Make it at least 1d5 damage to make it hurt a little. Those who usually have such a high defense that RF with a 10 on damage roll doesnt create any damage, dont give a **** on 1 damage caused. And 1d5 wouldnt kill them outright, but would at least give them some hurt.

And mooks are killed easily anyway, the RF instant-kill is just a flavour thing.

In DH1, RF was much more dangerous. If confirming the roll, you got 5-6 additional damage on average.

I'd like the old RF back. That way its possible to kill enemies, otherwise practicaly inkillable. And PC's too. Makes the system more grimdark.

I'd like the old RF back. That way its possible to kill enemies, otherwise practicaly inkillable. And PC's too. Makes the system more grimdark.

I agree, it seems to fit the setting better than a minor inconvenience.

But if so, without the confirm roll - that takes too much time.

If you go back to the old way, it becomes a lot more unfortunate for players, who need to survive multiple combats, not just this one.
Current RF does fine with big enemies, thanks to the 1 wound ping. If thats all you are doing, you need a bigger weapon, or you need a lot more of them. You shouldn't be relying on one "perfect" shot to kill it.

And a lot of the effects of RF are actually pretty terrible. Being stunned in combat, losing your helmet, having your eyes gouged out, arms disabled, blood loss are all horrible in combat. They all add a lot of flavour and danger without being "oh, here is 10 more wounds. Die pls"

Thats the thing I like the most, is it makes combat more interesting and cinematic, without the ridiculous drag of Beta 1.0



Oh, and I just saw the confirm roll thing. Thats another problem with the old system. It's highly likely for a starting ground, or any non combat acolyte to roll the dice, see those 10's pop up, and get all excited! Oh, but now you need to make another roll. Sorry, you failed, the Emperor wasn't watching.
The new system always rewards you with something, without exploding damage

If we could agree to increase the 1d5 a little bit, we'd have a deal.

I'd just love to buff called shots somehow - and tying it somehow to RF would be a nice thing.

Best solution for called shots? Just make them a modifier to regular shots.

Giving them Vengeful would be ridiculous. Imagine Autoguns or bolters with that

Called shots in my eyes have always been the assassins choice.

They should put some cool effect in it, or at least make them a half action only and -1ß instead of -20.

In its current state it is useless.

And RF is under its possibilities ;P

Called shots should just be a flat modifier to hit a specific area. The way to make them interesting is to make the effects of hitting different body locations more diverse.

Does DH2 use the same RF rules and crit charts as BC/OW?

Because a d5 roll on those can be plenty deadly. They're not rare occurences either; 10% of hits, 20% of hits with a Tearing weapon (= almost half the time if you manage a hit with all shots on a semi-auto boltgun burst) or a weapon with Gauss (OK Necrons only, or Sisters of Battle using their super powers of unbalancedness), 30% if it's Tearing and you have Flesh Render. Anything with 2d10 damage (most grenades) gets them 20% of the time; a lascannon gets one 50% of the time, and autocannon or krak missile 30% (per hit).

Called Shots are for shooting people in cover, mainly. Oh, and snipers.

And also I think giving Called SHots a higher chance for RF wouldnt ruin it, as automatic shots also have the same benefit at the moment with multiple hits.

Why should a well placed shot be less likely to hit a sensible spot than 3 wildly fired shots with automatic fire.

Very true.

I usually go with:

Roll RF, mooks die immediately, other enemies take 1D10 extra damage, players rejoice.

And also I think giving Called SHots a higher chance for RF wouldnt ruin it, as automatic shots also have the same benefit at the moment with multiple hits.

Why should a well placed shot be less likely to hit a sensible spot than 3 wildly fired shots with automatic fire.

Very true.

I don't think it is less likely, mathematically, depending on the spot in question.

But I am thinking of OW, and have nothing to do with the Beta at all, so why am I here? Good question. I'm leaving.

if you hit several times, your chance for RF is like that of several single hits.

if you hit several times, your chance for RF is like that of several single hits.

I misinterpreted, sorry. I thought he meant that autofire was more likely to hit a specific location than a Called Shot.

Maybe we need a talent that allows for more deadly criticals, something like Deadly Blows or "One-shot One Kill" that adds 1/2 rounded down of the characters' BS or WS to any crits dealt, including RF. Is that a thing? I haven't checked. I know the Assassin had something like this previously, maybe it should return as a Talent.

Unless you are playing a horror game or some other such genre where player characters are expected to die at a moment's notice, a mechanism whereby one hit by a common weapon can kill a PC is bad game design, I think.

EDIT: NPCs get RF in the Beta, right?