@Preacherman I do not get the numbers you have posted because you didn't mention the rank, advances spent, items, abilities etc. Listing numbers without telling any details makes them quite useless for others. In addition saying the soldier is not worse then the wizard in armor because the slayer/ironbreaker is broken is not that good of an argument.

In the end I still think soak is very strong and the wizard can use armor and shields without any real drawbacks (black dice don't count they are just to insignificant in comparison to more soak). The real drawback for the wizard is not wearing any armor at all.

Well I'm running a new character as my old one is suffering from a case of deaditis. I want to run a Bright Wizard, currently at 4 advancements.

Fluff wise, he's from a very martially oriented, Myrmidia worshipping family that has had a tradition of males becoming well known bright wizards, so like his father and uncle, he too joined the college from an early age. Their distinctive sort of *family move* is breathing fire, but since there's no such ability card, the DM will let me use Flameblast as a "breath weapon".

Build-wise, at this point I'm:

S4

T4

A2

I4

W4

F2

Spellcraft 1

Channeling 1 (spec for BW magic)

Resilience 1 (spec for rank 1 spells)

Actions: Pyrokinesis

Advancements spent:

Talent for +2 WD for Spellcraft checks

+action card Shielding Winds of Aqshy

+action card Flaming Sword of Rhuin

+action card Double Strike

I weep for any GM that even allows ironbreakers, much less an Ironbreaker-Trollslayer-Giantslayer dishonorable enough to use a shield (lugging around a tower shield?). That campaign sounds miserable. Having any other character equal to that only adds to the misery. Jesus, after 42 rounds of combat, if the players and GM weren't so bored to tears from all the soak going on, it would be a miracle if you still had a group left. You'd have the one broken character still standing and all the other characters would be dead or have fled...hence the argument against broken characters being the norm.

Let's use similar example that helps prove your point though:

Reiklander Swordsman - (Soldier, Veteran, Sargeant:)

Strength 5, Toughness 5 and however many wounds they can get in Plate mail and no shield (great weapon instead)

Armor Defense: 2 - Total Soak: 11

Greatsword: Base damage: 12, crits on 2 eagles. Jack spit for ranged combat. No ability to affect more than one person at a time. No ability to do social influence spells. Skill selection is about as boring as it gets.

Bright Wizard (apprentice, Acolyte, wizard)

Intelligence 5, Toughness 4, Strength 3 - low wounds, in Plate mail and no shield (would need both hands free to cast in my game)

Armor Defense: 1, Total Soak 9

Crown of Fire (opponent's cant approach), and Flaming Sword of Rhuin-DR5/CR2, pierce 1; gain 1 fortune die with attacks; 2 successes gain 1 strength (bringing him up to 4). Greatsword in his pocket in case they get jumped (total DR 10, CR2). Ability to do ranged combat galore, including bolts, which would do 11 points of damage on intelligence 5. Ability to do social influence with spells.

It seems pretty clear that if you wanted to be a front-line fighter, you'd pick the person who is specialized for it. Why did you think that a wizard should be a front-line fighter? They aren't going to get the wound threshold. It's not like they're working out in the gymnasium. They're studying books The Plate mail would be useful to save your life is about it.

There are other wizards with "great weapon" spells, but still, I would think you'd want to save those as a last resort. It's just quicker to keep a greatsword in your pocket instead and use a wizard as a diverse character to assist in diverse ways.

In the warhammer fantasy battles universe, I don't recall any "front line wizards."

Is your argument that they should be able to wear armor because they don't get all the benefits of the soldiers? That kind of cheats all the other careers (pedlar, envoy, noble, etc.). Armor is the balance for the fact that they get access to all of the regular special abilities PLUS they can access all of these wonderful spells. There has to should be a trade-off.

..

It's actually not at all un fluff-like with the slayer/ironbreaker. You do realize 2/3 slayers become slayers because they get rejected by women, right? If for instance things happen and you become the last male of your bloodline, your slayer oath becomes worthless, and you're "encouraged" to put some armor on and not die like a moron. Essentially if you bring more shame through death than through continued existence, you should stop being a slayer. Fluff wise. And yes, we do have a troll slayer/Iron breaker.

I also think IB is completely broken, but I also think pretty much all melee is broken in this game. Why are peasants even scared of wizards? According to 3rd Edition WFRP, a rank 1 peasant with reckless cleave would absolutely decimate a rank 1 wizard (possibily rank 2 as well) ...

We're "not bored" because the DM generally hits others, not the "dedicated tank", our fights are pretty dynamic, with a lot of athletics, coordination checks, we all "help out". One particularly "sad" fight involved my (at that point completely useless in combat) character throwing molotov cocktails at enemies, just to be at least marginally useful

What does Crown of fire do again? I'm ordering the PoD tomorrow I think, but am curious till it arrives. How does it stop enemies from approaching?

Agreed, I don't want to be a dedicated front line fighter, but since most if not all BW spells are close or medium range, I'm bound to be in the front lines, and I don't want to be wearing pajamas when those 2 goblins see me, get 2 hits and knock me out.

You'll like the bright wizard expansion. It really adds some fun spells (you can see my brief reviews over on the POD subforum).

Agree'd on the Slayers. Of course they all start somewhere

Good to hear that your GM keeps things interesting. I found a couple useful talents for you (both focus from Hero's Call ):

Suffused With Power – You gain 1 fortune die on all checks while you have favor or power in excess of the characteristic governing that check.
Embrace the Maelstrom –Whenever you suffer a miscast, gain 2 power after that miscast is resolved.

Probably start with lighter armor at first for some extra soak.

jh

You'll like the bright wizard expansion. It really adds some fun spells (you can see my brief reviews over on the POD subforum).

Agree'd on the Slayers. Of course they all start somewhere

Good to hear that your GM keeps things interesting. I found a couple useful talents for you (both focus from Hero's Call ):

Suffused With Power – You gain 1 fortune die on all checks while you have favor or power in excess of the characteristic governing that check.

Embrace the Maelstrom –Whenever you suffer a miscast, gain 2 power after that miscast is resolved.

Probably start with lighter armor at first for some extra soak.

jh

Thanks for the heads up

Oops, my fault. The least of that build's problems? If you say that you should actually say what the problem is. As I stated I just threw something together fast and you might try some constructive criticism next time.

The whole slayer debate (mostly starting because some player wants to be the ironbreaker/slayer super hero) just annoys me because I spent way too much time talking to players that want to play that pc in my game.

The peasant vs wizard debate only works if 2 pcs would fight each other. Fluff wise it will never happen with NPCs except an angry mob of peasants trys to kill the wizard. But "realistic" peasants or inhabitants of the warhammer world fear all things magical and shouldn't be easily driven to do that. Also if your GM builds reckless cleave peasants to kill a PC he is an ... and should reconsider playing with the players and not turn it into a competition.

I thought attuned items only add white dice to Channeling checks, not Spellcraft as well (which is the least of that build's problems )

Oops, my fault. The least of that build's problems? If you say that you should actually say what the problem is. As I stated I just threw something together fast and you might try some constructive criticism next time.

The whole slayer debate (mostly starting because some player wants to be the ironbreaker/slayer super hero) just annoys me because I spent way too much time talking to players that want to play that pc in my game.

The peasant vs wizard debate only works if 2 pcs would fight each other. Fluff wise it will never happen with NPCs except an angry mob of peasants trys to kill the wizard. But "realistic" peasants or inhabitants of the warhammer world fear all things magical and shouldn't be easily driven to do that. Also if your GM builds reckless cleave peasants to kill a PC he is an ... and should reconsider playing with the players and not turn it into a competition.

Sorry if it sounded like criticism, I thought that your build was just a funny way of saying you think wizards are OP.

Well as I said earlier we do a lot of athletics and coordination checks during our sessions so S2 A2 would get you into a lot of very bad, potentially fatal situations.

Also, investing essentially 12 points or 17 into stats as I'm assuming you did, you'd have very little versatility with action cards, talents and skills. I mean in our sessions at least, we use a bunch of other skills and checks, including some fellowship checks, and with those stats, sure, you'd have a higher dmg output but it doesn't seem like a balanced character to me. You wouldn't even have parry or ddge

Sorry if it sounded like criticism, I thought that your build was just a funny way of saying you think wizards are OP.

Well as I said earlier we do a lot of athletics and coordination checks during our sessions so S2 A2 would get you into a lot of very bad, potentially fatal situations.

Also, investing essentially 12 points or 17 into stats as I'm assuming you did, you'd have very little versatility with action cards, talents and skills. I mean in our sessions at least, we use a bunch of other skills and checks, including some fellowship checks, and with those stats, sure, you'd have a higher dmg output but it doesn't seem like a balanced character to me. You wouldn't even have parry or ddge

Criticism is good. I just wanted to know what the problems are.

That is why I said I wouldn't play it like that. In the end you will just go strained all the time and turn insane (the being strained rule regarding insanity is pure nonsense if you ask me but I digress). BUT I like characters that are not balanced because the intelligent wizard who only has his willpower to get him threw anything that is farther on the physical side than walking on a flat surface at a medium pace would be kind of funny I guess - Okay, I found my next character. DODGE? ME? Only those weak of mind and will would try to avoid their inevitable fate! (which is dying horribly - impaled on a fence he needed to climb over)

Isnt the Amber Wizard the front line combat Wizard?

Plate wearing Wizards, apart from the soak adding to the casts, there nothing else to stop this? Apart from chaos Sorcerers, Warhammer doesnt have Plate wearing wizards.

A slayer ironbreaker. I just cant see a slayer wearing Gromil Full Plate. Wish rules said something that slayers can only wear certain armours, Leather jerkin, a mail shirt for example.

People seem to like to play to the rules, instead of the spirit and lore of warhammer. Luckily thats what he gm is for

Isnt the Amber Wizard the front line combat Wizard?

Plate wearing Wizards, apart from the soak adding to the casts, there nothing else to stop this? Apart from chaos Sorcerers, Warhammer doesnt have Plate wearing wizards.

A slayer ironbreaker. I just cant see a slayer wearing Gromil Full Plate. Wish rules said something that slayers can only wear certain armours, Leather jerkin, a mail shirt for example.

People seem to like to play to the rules, instead of the spirit and lore of warhammer. Luckily thats what he gm is for

Technically the Bright Wizard, Amethyst and Amber Wizard are all front line combatants. They all have short range spells, as well as spells to either summon melee weapons, or to turn into forms that are strong in melee (flaming sword of rhuin, reaping scythe, amber forms). As for why they wouldn't wear plate is beyond me. Almost all of their spells (if not all) are as I mentioned earlier, medium to close range. You'd have to be a masochist to go into an actual combat situation without armor on. Add to that how few wizards the Empire has, and how valuable they are, and it only becomes dumber still.

Adding to that is the fact that Bright Wizards actually are mentioned several times to be front line warriors. Here are a few excerpts from Realms of Sorcery 2nd ed:

"Pyromancers frequently train with military detachments, and, as a result, they are the most readily recognised of all Magisters. But they do not simply learn how to use their abilities to support troops as most other Magisters do, they also learn how to fight as frontline troops - such is their aggressive and passionate nature ."

Another part, related to the way they cut their robes to allow easier movement in melee combat:

"The Pyromancers of the Bright Order tend to wear robes of red or orange as a kind of uniform in battle, cut so as to allow easy movement in combat ."

Another part, noting how apprentices perform mock combat, while older students duel with magic. Also mentions combat training:

"Too much academic study is discouraged infavour of practical experimentation for those that are deemed to have enough control and discipline. Bright Magisters will spend most of their days upon the battlefield and must learn how to fight, survive, and win . [..] Mock combat is a frequent part of training , but then so is actual magical duelling for senior apprentices."

Range is for those celestial sissies.

I wish to i could remember my old WFB Pyro spells. Maybe there were armour spells? or defensive spells

Your quote mentioned they wore robes, and cut them for easiler movement. Nothing about armour though.

Until they add another FAQ, Nothing much we can do except house rule.

I wish to i could remember my old WFB Pyro spells. Maybe there were armour spells? or defensive spells

Your quote mentioned they wore robes, and cut them for easiler movement. Nothing about armour though.

Until they add another FAQ, Nothing much we can do except house rule.

Yes, I agree that they normally wear robes, just like a soldier normally wore regular clothing. You can't walk around with armor. That stuff is heavy, uncomfortable, you can't sit down right, and you'll mess up your back. But in a combat situation, going on any sort of battlefield without it, is suicide.

They do have 2 armor spells. Shielding Winds of Aqshy which adds soak equal to your depth in the reckless stance (or soak 2 if conservative), which is very little, and the good one which is Panoply of Rhuin (defense 2, soak 5), which is a RANK 5 SPELL, which is funny, because short of an incredibly lenient GM, the magister would die long before he reaches that kind of rank.

I think the reason you're set against the idea is that you're imagining the wizard in full plate, whereas I don't. I mean I guess technically it -could- be worn, but in our games at least, that's knightly armor, and wouldn't be readily available to just anyone. My entire point was about breastplate + chainmail.

In my game I just follow the lore of warhammer. This means slayers and wizards don't wear any armor because it is sensible from a player perspective but just ruins the immersion for the others. The simple thing that explains it is that the slayer wants to die. He does not swear an oath to die in combat and then use the heaviest set of armor he can find ... Equally the wizard does not wear armor because it interferes with his spellcasting (black dice don't matter, I know but that is player logic). But to each their own so if people want to play by the rules of wfrp3 and not that much by the lore that's okay too.

Can ironbreakers actually become slayers? I mean would they actually leave their armor behind which is after all a priced possesion or just try to die in that suit by going into the tunnels? I don't think the gromril suit gets recycled and given to another but is buried with the ironbreaker who wore it.

In my game I just follow the lore of warhammer. This means slayers and wizards don't wear any armor because it is sensible from a player perspective but just ruins the immersion for the others. The simple thing that explains it is that the slayer wants to die. He does not swear an oath to die in combat and then use the heaviest set of armor he can find ... Equally the wizard does not wear armor because it interferes with his spellcasting (black dice don't matter, I know but that is player logic). But to each their own so if people want to play by the rules of wfrp3 and not that much by the lore that's okay too.

Can ironbreakers actually become slayers? I mean would they actually leave their armor behind which is after all a priced possesion or just try to die in that suit by going into the tunnels? I don't think the gromril suit gets recycled and given to another but is buried with the ironbreaker who wore it.

From what I know, slayers don't exactly want to die. They want to find a worthy doom, a battle of the ages, and are OK with the idea that they might die.

And there's nothing in the lore as far as I am aware saying that wizards wouldn't use armor. Bright Wizard battle mages for instance, are so powerful, that it's rumoured they're kept in lead lined cells beneath the tower in Altdorf, released only when the Empire needs them the most. (realms of sorcery)

It wouldn't be difficult to imagine such a wizard wear armor that has lead incorporated into it, to both contain the tremendous amounts of energy, and provide some safety to those around him, only to be surrounded by foes, take his lead restraints off and explode with rage and fire (see: http://th08.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2011/272/c/a/hero__s_call_by_daarken-d4bc7ul.jpg ) Seems cinematic to me, without disturbing the Warhammer Lore in the least. In fact, staying within its boundaries completely.

Ironbreakers should definitely be able to become slayers, fluff wise, but I don't know how it would work in game terms, as I understand the gromril armor can't be sold, given away, etc. Slayers can similarly become Ironbreakers if things happen, and dying would bring greater shame. Also, from what I'm aware, Gromril armor is passed down, not buried with the wearer. I might be wrong on that however.

I cannot find it anymore (stupid warhammer online wiki spam) but I am 100% sure that the slayer can only regain his honor by dying. As far as I know they are not okay if they die but they want to find an enemy that can kill them. This doesn't mean they just get drunk and want to be beaten to death by 20 peasants. They want a glorious death afterall.

Well, I have never seen a model of a wizard with armor and never heard or read any wizard wears armor. In addition the game says casting gets harder in armor which is enough reason for me to think in character you wouldn't deliberatly make casting harder for yourself. I know that in wfrp3 casting spells is not actually playing with the essence of chaos and more about getting funny miscast effects like purple cloths or rain of frogs but fluff wise it should be.

The ironbreaker armor thing could be, but I don't know. Fluff wise a slayer can never become an ironbreaker because he will not wear armor and nobody will grant him the honor of being an ironbreaker if he's a slayer and has disgraced himself. But the game is broken fluff wise anyways with the ironbreaker being a starting career and not the high prestige career it actually is.

Don't know if I'm treading on people's toes here.

But Wizards in WFB do NOT wear armour and are expressly stated that they are NOT allowed to purchase, use or gain benefit from wearing armour. Solely because it interferes with their ability to spell cast and things can go horribly wrong for them if they do wear armour. The only exceptions to this are chaos sorcerers who wear chaos armour which is created by magic itself and Vampires who can wear heavy armour.

As for Slayers, they are looking for a worthy death to atone for a past grudge. And their one aim is to die in combat with a worthy foe. There is only one Dwarf that is a slayer and is unable to seek this death, King Ungrim Ironfist the Slayer King of Karak Kadrin and he is unable to seek his glorious death due to his responsibility to his hold.

These are how it works in WFB and so in WFRPG may do things differently and wizards might wander around in armour. All though I would say that it should be near impossible for someone other than a member of a Greatsword regiment to get hold of a suit of Plate Mail. And as for the wizard being always ready in his armour should only ever happen if they are knowingly entering a full on battle or war. Not if they are wandering the countryside looking for the nearest inn or delving a nearby cave system - only a dwarf should be able to wear so much armour and move around in small spaces. Lesser armours are not as much of a problem.

Again sorry if I am stepping on anyone's toes here.

Gazery

1) Keep in mind that metal armor, especially platemail, is HEAVY. S4 character will have a difficult time wearing plate and carrying a sword/shield or two-handed weapon. If your wizard is S3 or less, you can pretty much forget about wearing plate as you won't be able to move with it on without being encumbered.

2) There is nothing technically stopping wizards from wearing armor per the rules. Armor interferes with casting magic. "Socially", however, armor is frowned upon by the wizardly orders. Yes, even those orders that are 'front-line' fighting types. First of all, keep in mind just how much the colleges of magic go about seeking people with the talent for magic, and what they do to those that cannot control their gifts. Wearing armor essentially means that your magic is now always unpredictable. the Empire and the Colleges *hate* unpredictable magic. They stamp it, and anyone out of control, out of existence. Secondly, wizards of the Imperial Colleges of magic are elitists and purists. They are *all* about the magic. It consumes them and their thoughts. Therefore, any protection should, naturally, come from manipulating the Winds of Magic. Especially since to use other armor is to handicap yourself. You would be ostracized, and likely rebuked, if you should wear "common" armor.

1) Keep in mind that metal armor, especially platemail, is HEAVY. S4 character will have a difficult time wearing plate and carrying a sword/shield or two-handed weapon. If your wizard is S3 or less, you can pretty much forget about wearing plate as you won't be able to move with it on without being encumbered.

2) There is nothing technically stopping wizards from wearing armor per the rules. Armor interferes with casting magic. "Socially", however, armor is frowned upon by the wizardly orders. Yes, even those orders that are 'front-line' fighting types. First of all, keep in mind just how much the colleges of magic go about seeking people with the talent for magic, and what they do to those that cannot control their gifts. Wearing armor essentially means that your magic is now always unpredictable. the Empire and the Colleges *hate* unpredictable magic. They stamp it, and anyone out of control, out of existence. Secondly, wizards of the Imperial Colleges of magic are elitists and purists. They are *all* about the magic. It consumes them and their thoughts. Therefore, any protection should, naturally, come from manipulating the Winds of Magic. Especially since to use other armor is to handicap yourself. You would be ostracized, and likely rebuked, if you should wear "common" armor.

1. The discussion was never about plate, it was about breastplate + chain. No shield, no full plate, no two handed weapon. His strength as previously mentioned is 4, more than enough to carry the armor without the slightest hindrance.

2. - Source pls for "Socially, however, armor is frowned upon by the wizardly orders"

- Bright wizards have no active searches for members, those are the Light Order. Bright Wizards have the highest number of volunteers, so many that they send quite a few to other Orders

- Why does wearing armor mean that your magic is unpredictable? It simply makes it slightly weaker.

- The Imperial Colleges are apart from the Temple of Verenna and some other organizations such as the Herrimaults, the least elitist institutions in the Warhammer world, accepting members from all walks of life, as long as they follow rules (and obviously, are magically attuned).

I'm not a lore buff or anything, but having read winds of magic, realms of sorcery, the empire whfb manual and tome of mysteries, and don't recall ever reading that wearing armor is frowned upon. All I've found are notes that metal "interferes with" spellcasting (lead in particular). If you could provide a source, that'd be great though.

1. This is where the difference between those for and against armor is. In my opinion you can't have 4 strength as a wizard because it is just weird and doesn't fit my view of wizards. Wizards are scholars and need their time to study and don't waste it on working out.

2. The idea is if you get black dice it gets harder to cast. The wizard is making the use of spells harder which is what dvang implied. Therefore a wizard would not wear armor because he is manipulating something that can kill him or even worse things could happen if anything goes wrong. This is where another problem of wfrp3 comes into play. The miscast effects are too weak and just outright failing to cast a spell is not a miscast but just a "oops, didn't work".

Winds of Magic "Some even wear gold-plated armour pieces, so long as it does not hinder their castings." So armor and metal (even gold for gold wizards) does negativly effect using magic.

If you want to have wizards wear armor in your game just do it. I do not think this discussion will come to any conclusion so everyone has to decide for him/herself how they want to play.

I think the problem is, where we learned about warhammer wizards and armour. I learnt from Warhamemr Fantasy Battles, Heroquest, Advanced Heroquest and 1st Ed/ 2nd Ed WFRP.

In the current setting what Preacherman is saying is true, theres nothing against doing it.

For miscasts, bring in the some house rules for chaos mutation or demon summoning. A miscast spell in combat and suddenly your surrounded by 3 or 5 imps, makes a interesting case for being more careful with your casting.

1. Thyris Gormann is said to be almost 7 feet tall Just because you're studious doesn't mean you're a weakling physically

2. Well yes, I mean I knew that metal does make using magic more difficult, that's explained from the Player's Handbook. Just not that it brings some sort of risk of miscast, which is what dvang was implying (although maybe that's mentioned somewhere and I don't know).

Am I going crazy or is the character on the Channel Power action card wearing breastplate+chainmail?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v442/preacherofnothing/channelpower_zps42b975e2.png

I think the problem is, where we learned about warhammer wizards and armour. I learnt from Warhamemr Fantasy Battles, Heroquest, Advanced Heroquest and 1st Ed/ 2nd Ed WFRP.

In the current setting what Preacherman is saying is true, theres nothing against doing it.

For miscasts, bring in the some house rules for chaos mutation or demon summoning. A miscast spell in combat and suddenly your surrounded by 3 or 5 imps, makes a interesting case for being more careful with your casting.

Yeah, except in WFB they can get Ward Saves that are as strong as full plate armor

1. Being tall does not mean you are strong. It just means ... well, that you are tall.

2. And that is the flaw of the wfrp3 system as I mentioned.

I see a breastplate on that. But I have never seen any artwork anywhere that showed wizards in armor except chaos sorcerers. Maybe they used the same artwork with the priest channel power card. In addition the character on the card does look more like a priest then a mage. But again, if you want to have wizards wear armor in your game just do it. Like several people mentioned before wfrp3 does allow it.

This is where another problem of wfrp3 comes into play. The miscast effects are too weak

Seriously? That's not my experience at all.

The bright wizard in my campaign drew a miscast card that made her the target of her own high-damage blast. She KO'd herself and gained a permanent injury. It was several sessions before she dared cast a spell again. There's at least two cards in the deck that do that (hit you with your own spell), one of them for a single chaos star so it can happen on an otherwise great roll (and thus really nail you for damage).

There's also cards that give you Crits, Insanities, Corruption or even Mutations for a single chaos star.

The effects for 1 star seem to me to be much more potent than the "Expanded Minor Chaos Manifestation" chart in Realm of Sorcery. The 2 and 3 star effects seem to be at least roughly comparable to the "Major" chart. I'll admit that there's only a couple cards that are the equivalent of the "Catastrophic Chaos Manifestations"... but that chart came into play on about 1 in a 1,000 rolls in 2nd Ed, IIRC, so there's not much value to having a lot of cards dedicated to replicating their effects.

The effects for 1 star seem to me to be much more potent than the "Expanded Minor Chaos Manifestation" chart in Realm of Sorcery.

I always did feel those were weak and wierd in 2e..plus I'm a rat-bastard GM so any extra nastiness on the players is always good

jh

This is where another problem of wfrp3 comes into play. The miscast effects are too weak

Seriously? That's not my experience at all.

The bright wizard in my campaign drew a miscast card that made her the target of her own high-damage blast. She KO'd herself and gained a permanent injury. It was several sessions before she dared cast a spell again. There's at least two cards in the deck that do that (hit you with your own spell), one of them for a single chaos star so it can happen on an otherwise great roll (and thus really nail you for damage).

There's also cards that give you Crits, Insanities, Corruption or even Mutations for a single chaos star.

The effects for 1 star seem to me to be much more potent than the "Expanded Minor Chaos Manifestation" chart in Realm of Sorcery. The 2 and 3 star effects seem to be at least roughly comparable to the "Major" chart. I'll admit that there's only a couple cards that are the equivalent of the "Catastrophic Chaos Manifestations"... but that chart came into play on about 1 in a 1,000 rolls in 2nd Ed, IIRC, so there's not much value to having a lot of cards dedicated to replicating their effects.

Agreed. I went through the miscast deck to see what I should expect, and they seem absolutely BRUTAL. Either way, after I read them I spoke with the GM and he said that we (myself and the resident grey wizard) will be picking from hand selected miscasts appropriate to the case at hand.

AkA, not a huge horrible mutation or corruption miscast when simply doing a cantrip or some rank 1 spell.