I have a few questions related to the mage classes in the game (apprentice, acolyte, wizard).

1. Would a BW be affected by regular fire? Such as being burned at the stake, walking through a forest fire, etc. ? I'm assuming they could from a rules point of view, but it seems kind of...silly I guess fluff-wise...

2. Has anyone tried running a wizard in armor? The misfortune die for every point of soak seems really bothersome to be honest (personally think it's stupid, since their spells are all close/medium range, and their fluff is all about them being front line fighters). Is it feasible?

Fluff questions (having read Realms of Sorcery from 2nd ed and Winds of Magic from 3rd, didn't find an answer):

3. Are the tattoos on BWs made by them or do they just appear as they use Aqshy more and more?

4. Would it be 1 key per rank that they wear?

I have an Amethyst Wizard in my campaign who is wearing a mailshirt underneath. (+1 black die)

He wore it from day1 and I cant remember him miscasting a spell. As soon as you have 1 yellow die it shouldnt be a problem.

Our wizard is rank4 now and the one black die is not noticeable.

2. Has anyone tried running a wizard in armor? The misfortune die for every point of soak seems really bothersome to be honest (personally think it's stupid, since their spells are all close/medium range, and their fluff is all about them being front line fighters). Is it feasible?

I have an Amethyst Wizard in my campaign who is wearing a mailshirt underneath. (+1 black die)

He wore it from day1 and I cant remember him miscasting a spell. As soon as you have 1 yellow die it shouldnt be a problem.

Our wizard is rank4 now and the one black die is not noticeable.

A mailshirt would be +2 black dies

Another question:

How would you go about getting spells that are higher rank than you? Can you get a rank 3 spell at rank 2? What about at rank 1? What would it cost? Would casting it require additional purple die?

Havent got the rulebook with me currently. But there is a segment that deals with costs of higher rank spells, cost extra to buy them.

What Durak said - there is a whole section regarding casting spells which are higher than your rankk and also casting spells from different schools.

I think it was in the Magic expansion.

iirc, it is +1 purp die for each difference between rank of player and spell. (miscasts happen more frequent - and those can be nasty at times (losing stats, die, ...)).

Wizards should be more powered than other characters. The armor penalty is just for such a thing. Wizards can be a blast to play though

Ok I found the explanations for aquiring and casting higher rank spells in Winds of Magic, and also found out about the tattoos (apparently they're self made )

Wizards should be more powered than other characters. The armor penalty is just for such a thing. Wizards can be a blast to play though

So do you think a mage wearing armour (maybe even breastplate + chain) is viable Emirikol?

handy summary btw: http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/63236-bright-order-magic/

Seeing how black dice do not matter at all you can even wear platemail as a wizard in wfrp3 without any problem.

In the end the rules are flawed because the black/purple dice are just not balanced in comparison to the number of positive dice you will have in your pool.

Balanced how? Meaning they cancel each other out exactly 50% of the time? No, they don't in WFRP3. The dice are skewed towards player success and green dice have a higher success chance than red, but with the "time" sacrifice. Some GM's will throw extra dice in so that they are skewed /against/ player success.

In SW, the dice are plainly 50/50. Some people prefer that method for purity sake, but it' really is personal preference. Dungeons and Dragons has been attempting "dice balance" in their latest two editions and when you look at it numerically, it's kind of blah IMHO, but it does add to certainty.

In either case, you've got to be able to calculate successes as a GM and modify according to your style. (I tend towards leaning against player success).

Thanks all for the replies. I still have 2 unanswered questions though:

1. Would a BW be affected by regular fire? Such as being burned at the stake, walking through a forest fire, etc. ? I'm assuming they could from a rules point of view, but it seems kind of...silly I guess fluff-wise...

4. Would it be 1 key per rank that they wear?

Answers:

1. Yes. They are affected by regular fire unless under the following spell (from the POD): Aqushy’s Aegis http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/63236-bright-order-magic/

4. I'm not familiar with any rules regarding "keys". Maybe someone else can come up with an answer for this one. 2e Realms of Sorcery has some things like that maybe worth looking up.

So do you think a mage wearing armour (maybe even breastplate + chain) is viable Emirikol?

Oh, it's viable, but should be more penalized than not wearing it. That's the balance issue where the wizard in Plate Mail shouldn't be more powerful than a soldier in Plate Mail

Seeing how black dice do not matter at all you can even wear platemail as a wizard in wfrp3 without any problem.

In the end the rules are flawed because the black/purple dice are just not balanced in comparison to the number of positive dice you will have in your pool.

I know individual black dice are no big deal, but the + 5 black (to both channeling and casting) from wearing platemail would be noticeable. First rank bright wizards can have ~83% success rate when quickcasting flameblast, but that armor would drop it to ~52%. That's a big drop.

Even if you still succeed, you're much less likely to score the 3 successes, 3 boons and a comet that you'd need to max out the damage on the spell.

In comparison to d20 rpg's, it is easier to cast spells in heavier armor in WFRP3, but yes, you won't get the big blasts that you want until you get to Rank3 ( and have 3-4 yellow dice), which makes it all moot. I like that in d20, you get a consistent chance of failure regardless of your level.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm

LIGHT

padded 5%
leather 10%
Studded 15%
Chain shirt 20%

MEDIUM

Hide 20%
Scale 25%
Chainmail 30%
Breastplate 25%
HEAVY

Splint 40%
Banded 35%
Half Plate: 35%
Full Plate 35%

I think that

So do you think a mage wearing armour (maybe even breastplate + chain) is viable Emirikol?

Oh, it's viable, but should be more penalized than not wearing it. That's the balance issue where the wizard in Plate Mail shouldn't be more powerful than a soldier in Plate Mail

I don't think he'd be more powerful at all. A wizard in Plate Mail will have MUCH fewer action cards, as well as much fewer wounds than a soldier in Plate Mail.

He'd be forced to invest his fortune points into Int/Will to negate the misfortune die. Most likely won't have any tactics talents which are the ones that are best for melee combat, etc.

Sure, he might have more soak, but only just barely. Also, that's only if the the spell works and only for a few rounds...

Soak is the single most powerful element in the game. Platemail (especial gromril plate) negates pretty much all but a single point of damage or two cases (if the opponent even hits). It requires absolutely no x.p. expenditure.

imo

Soak is the single most powerful element in the game. Platemail (especial gromril plate) negates pretty much all but a single point of damage or two cases (if the opponent even hits). It requires absolutely no x.p. expenditure.

imo

True, but there are a few points that aren't being mentioned here:

1. Unless every single fight in your campaigns is premeditated and initiated by the PCs, there's no time to cast SWoA (shielding winds of Aqshy) before a fight erupts, there's most likely going to be at least 1 hit without the additional soak.

2. The casting might not even work. These are dice we're talking about, statistically it should be manifested, but it can always straight up just fail.

3. Assuming the spell works and the caster has time to cast it, the soak only becomes noticeable in 2-3 rounds.

4. The wizard will always have fewer wounds than a melee dedicated character.

5. The wizard also will never have the same damage output as a dedicated melee character. He's investing points in Intelligence, talents into + white dice for spellcraft/channeling, fortune dice for Int/Will, everything that the melee character is putting into Strength, Toughness, resilience, Weapon Skill...

1. I don't get it. The platemail gives you 5 soak no matter what you do. If you get shielding winds of aqshy up you will have much more soak than anyone else. Tgis still doesn't effect the value of platemail.

2. When you hit your 3rd yellow die on Rank 3 you do not care about 5 black dice because you have high int, fortune dice int, specialisation etc.

3. Soak from armor is always there.

4. Not that many. Wizards have to buy one extra wound per level and therefore have only les wounds because they don't buy additional wounds and might have 1-2 less because they didn't get 5 TO.

5. The wizard and the melee do the same thing. One goes for INT and the other for STR. Both do damage beased on their main attribute. The cost are exactly the same for both characters.

Your arguments are kind of flawed because Emirikol's statement about SOAK being very strong still stands true. In addition the wizard doesn't have to do anything to wear platemail apart from buying it so you do not lose advances or anything else.

1. I don't get it. The platemail gives you 5 soak no matter what you do. If you get shielding winds of aqshy up you will have much more soak than anyone else. Tgis still doesn't effect the value of platemail.

2. When you hit your 3rd yellow die on Rank 3 you do not care about 5 black dice because you have high int, fortune dice int, specialisation etc.

3. Soak from armor is always there.

4. Not that many. Wizards have to buy one extra wound per level and therefore have only les wounds because they don't buy additional wounds and might have 1-2 less because they didn't get 5 TO.

5. The wizard and the melee do the same thing. One goes for INT and the other for STR. Both do damage beased on their main attribute. The cost are exactly the same for both characters.

Your arguments are kind of flawed because Emirikol's statement about SOAK being very strong still stands true. In addition the wizard doesn't have to do anything to wear platemail apart from buying it so you do not lose advances or anything else.

True, meanwhile a slayer/giant slayer/ironbreaker can have:

Toughness 6, Strength 6, and a tower shield, 12 extra wounds leading to a constant:

Soak: 14

Defense: 3

Wounds: 28

And a higher damage output than a mage.

Meanwhile a mage has to actually succesfully cast the spell (which might not cast, and during which round he's also not doing damage as opposed to a melee character), then wait 4 rounds (which is in fact the full duration of the spell) to reach the ironbreaker's level of soak. And he'd have a maximum of 16 wounds, while also doing less damage than the melee character.

I weep for any GM that even allows ironbreakers, much less an Ironbreaker-Trollslayer-Giantslayer dishonorable enough to use a shield (lugging around a tower shield?). That campaign sounds miserable. Having any other character equal to that only adds to the misery. Jesus, after 42 rounds of combat, if the players and GM weren't so bored to tears from all the soak going on, it would be a miracle if you still had a group left. You'd have the one broken character still standing and all the other characters would be dead or have fled...hence the argument against broken characters being the norm.

Let's use similar example that helps prove your point though:

Reiklander Swordsman - (Soldier, Veteran, Sargeant:)

Strength 5, Toughness 5 and however many wounds they can get in Plate mail and no shield (great weapon instead)

Armor Defense: 2 - Total Soak: 11

Greatsword: Base damage: 12, crits on 2 eagles. Jack spit for ranged combat. No ability to affect more than one person at a time. No ability to do social influence spells. Skill selection is about as boring as it gets.

Bright Wizard (apprentice, Acolyte, wizard)

Intelligence 5, Toughness 4, Strength 3 - low wounds, in Plate mail and no shield (would need both hands free to cast in my game)

Armor Defense: 1, Total Soak 9

Crown of Fire (opponent's cant approach), and Flaming Sword of Rhuin-DR5/CR2, pierce 1; gain 1 fortune die with attacks; 2 successes gain 1 strength (bringing him up to 4). Greatsword in his pocket in case they get jumped (total DR 10, CR2). Ability to do ranged combat galore, including bolts, which would do 11 points of damage on intelligence 5. Ability to do social influence with spells.

It seems pretty clear that if you wanted to be a front-line fighter, you'd pick the person who is specialized for it. Why did you think that a wizard should be a front-line fighter? They aren't going to get the wound threshold. It's not like they're working out in the gymnasium. They're studying books The Plate mail would be useful to save your life is about it.

There are other wizards with "great weapon" spells, but still, I would think you'd want to save those as a last resort. It's just quicker to keep a greatsword in your pocket instead and use a wizard as a diverse character to assist in diverse ways.

In the warhammer fantasy battles universe, I don't recall any "front line wizards."

Is your argument that they should be able to wear armor because they don't get all the benefits of the soldiers? That kind of cheats all the other careers (pedlar, envoy, noble, etc.). Armor is the balance for the fact that they get access to all of the regular special abilities PLUS they can access all of these wonderful spells. There has to should be a trade-off.

..

@Preacherman I do not get the numbers you have posted because you didn't mention the rank, advances spent, items, abilities etc. Listing numbers without telling any details makes them quite useless for others. In addition saying the soldier is not worse then the wizard in armor because the slayer/ironbreaker is broken is not that good of an argument.

In the end I still think soak is very strong and the wizard can use armor and shields without any real drawbacks (black dice don't count they are just to insignificant in comparison to more soak). The real drawback for the wizard is not wearing any armor at all.

Might be fun to make a 3rd career wizard and see how it actually works out with platemail and we can test this argument out

I do think though that the armor penalty for a rank 3+ wizard is moot as the black dice won't even add up to a hill of beans as many wizards have their fortune and specializations maxed out.

Just threw some stuff together which I wouldn't play but is possible with 30 advances spent.

STR 2

TO 4

AGI 2

INT 6 +1FD

WP 6 +1FD

FEL 2

Spellcraft 3 +3FD from attuned staff

Channeling 2 +3FD from attuned staff

Wounds 16

Just threw some stuff together which I wouldn't play but is possible with 30 advances spent.

STR 2

TO 4

AGI 2

INT 6 +1FD

WP 6 +1FD

FEL 2

Spellcraft 3 +3FD from attuned staff

Channeling 2 +3FD from attuned staff

Wounds 16

I thought attuned items only add white dice to Channeling checks, not Spellcraft as well (which is the least of that build's problems )