I came to the Forum looking for a discussion on the Aptitude system, and just wanted to add my voice to those saying it's needlessly awkward. If we can't have straightforward tables (which DH did well and RT did poorly, with too few choices) then something like the first Beta would be good: simple and quick to use.

I'm very surprised to see, now that I'm finally getting a look at the new document, that psychic powers are still talent trees.

Does anyone else feel that this is disconnected? I liked (and commented on) how the old beta had a similar format for the two, though I suppose that's a minor issue.

Did the vitriol for talent trees not extend to psychic powers?

The psychic powers have had talent trees in effect for the last few games now, though they've frequently been flatter than they are here. I think people generally have a higher tolerance for weird **** in terms of their supernatural powers, and any outrage over perceived rigidity and speed-bumpiness involved with talent trees is lessened when it is confined to one part of the system only 1-2 people in a group will use, rather than affecting everyone.

I don't mind them, and I don't mind the talent trees in theory . For psychic powers, it forces a gradual buildup of power and specialization in order to get the good powers from a discipline.

I don't mind them, and I don't mind the talent trees in theory . For psychic powers, it forces a gradual buildup of power and specialization in order to get the good powers from a discipline.

In this regard, I don't mind Talent Trees at all. I think the DH2 Beta 1.0 trees were very.. restrictive and had considerable issues, but what a "tree" really is is just a number of abilities or aspects of abilities that are nested in such a way that they have prereqs.

And I think that we can all agree that a lot of talent should have prereqs. Some of those talents should also be prereqs. for other talents that have prereqs. and so on. So in a sense, a "talent tree" is only a graphical representation of something that we've had in practice for a very long time, and makes complete sense.

And I think that we can all agree that a lot of talent should have prereqs. Some of those talents should also be prereqs. for other talents that have prereqs. and so on. So in a sense, a "talent tree" is only a graphical representation of something that we've had in practice for a very long time, and makes complete sense.

This. I prefer the presentation of talent trees over yet more tables (which are really just flattened trees). If they could implement the current talents (roughly) into a sensible tree presentation that'd be just dandy.

And I think that we can all agree that a lot of talent should have prereqs. Some of those talents should also be prereqs. for other talents that have prereqs. and so on. So in a sense, a "talent tree" is only a graphical representation of something that we've had in practice for a very long time, and makes complete sense.

This. I prefer the presentation of talent trees over yet more tables (which are really just flattened trees). If they could implement the current talents (roughly) into a sensible tree presentation that'd be just dandy.

Totally agree here. Make those talents in groups. I just joined the new RPG "Song of Ice and Fire", they did it easily.. So why not this system.

Talent trees just makes it easier to see, what is required to get a certain talent. It may even reduce the amount of heavy tables, which may confuse some players (often new ones who have to adapt).

I don't mind being given graphic representations of "Talent trees" for ease of checking prerequisites.

I do take issue with lumping all remotely similar Talents into one big "tree" of cumulative prerequisites, because it constrains advancement and makes all characters interested in the same field advance exactly the same.

I don't mind being given graphic representations of "Talent trees" for ease of checking prerequisites.

I do take issue with lumping all remotely similar Talents into one big "tree" of cumulative prerequisites, because it constrains advancement and makes all characters interested in the same field advance exactly the same.

Yes, when Scyndria said "Make those talents in groups" , I threw up a little in my mouth. I do not think that lumping talents together is the way to go, but graphical representation, perhaps akin to a "Tech tree" for those familiar with such things from 4x gaming or similar, would be very nice.

Sorry to try and derail your thread cps, but my question is about aptitudes..

Is there a way to gain aptitudes?

The only sources i have seen so far are from world/background/role

Sorry to try and derail your thread cps, but my question is about aptitudes..

Is there a way to gain aptitudes?

The only sources i have seen so far are from world/background/role

Unless something has changed since Only War (I haven't been able to read DH2 Beta 2.0 in it's entirety, yet), the only way to gain additional Aptitudes past character creation is through the gamemaster. In supplements for Only War, they also introduced a way to change your career/specialization/archetype into a range of secondary specializations that replaced your original Aptitude rollout.

I never liked the latter functionality at all, and I hope it doesn't reappear in DH2.

The Inquisitor elite advance gives you Leadership and the Psyker elite advance gives you the Psyker Aptitude. Other than that I haven't seen any other way to gain them, even in the Rewards section in the DM chapter. It follows that gaining Aptitudes will be a rare, probably once-per-character-if-ever event.

Maybe this is just my lack of practical experience with Only War, but I'm having a hard time seeing the point of Aptitudes.

Obviously, it's there to differentiate the classes. I get that. But is that even a good thing?

Some differentiation is needed, obviously, or the whole class system should be thrown out as a whole. But is exp differentiation really an interesting way to do it?

The home/background/role special abilities go a long way to differentiate the classes, and some of them in an interesting way (though overpowered in several cases).

The Assassin is ideal for single, high-damage hits, preferably with a high RF chance.

The Warrior is ideal for getting consistent hits.

The Desperado is ideal for dual-wielding.

Some of the others are less interesting (you only have so many fate points), but the idea is in there. Characters are naturally inclined to take skills/talents that accentuate their natural abilities. I think that's much more interesting than having variable experience costs.

So.. knowing this probably isn't happening, 'cause there's only so many major redesigns in a beta, how about this:

Throw out Aptitudes and their wonky cost system. Make all skills and talents available to everyone at the same price and then redesign the home/background/role special abilities to enhance the thematically appropriate skills/talents of that class. Make those special abilities really shine, by allowing for great synergy with appropriate talents. I think the Assassin/Warrior roles are half way there - they just need some balancing. The others could catch up.

OK, I'm going to throw in here in favour of aptitudes, in particular the "double aptitude"-system seen in OW (and here).

I like that you can be good at some things and bad at others, without being locked in a straight-jacket like the original DH or even worse RT. It makes sense - every day I see people trying their hand at things they are no good at. And mostly people can learn, though it takes more effort for some than others.

I like that there's a granularity to the system, so that it isn't a simple easy/hard question, but rather a easy/doable/hard situation. It makes things into more of a decission and a matter of priorities, rather than a disguised version of can/can't.

To me, the system isn't terribly complicated and certainly it feels like I waste less time flipping through books than I did i DH1.

In DH1, I looked at what my rank-entry offered me, and then I had to look up this. in OW, I look up what I want and then write down what that'll cost me. About the biggest help I could ask for with the aptitudes system is that all of the pricing tables were collected on a single sheet, preferbly available for download and printing.

Have this sheet next to you as you go through the book to see where to go, and no flipping is required.

Meanwhile, I've started throwing an Android App together, for me, my friends and anybody else. It's still on the drawing board mostly, since I only started this morning on the train, but I hope to make some progress tonight and tomorrow night. Should get a rudimentary shape by then.
I'll make it work for OW and DH2.0b2, if I can.

Pitching in on the Aptitude front I will be creating a new version of my Aptitude Calc excel sheet that I made for Only War ages ago to bring it in line with Beta 2.

Once I have it working I'll put it up on google docs and distribute the link here.

Regards

Surak

Meanwhile, I've started throwing an Android App together, for me, my friends and anybody else. It's still on the drawing board mostly, since I only started this morning on the train, but I hope to make some progress tonight and tomorrow night. Should get a rudimentary shape by then.

I'll make it work for OW and DH2.0b2, if I can.

Very nice! Keep us posted, please!

I don't mind being given graphic representations of "Talent trees" for ease of checking prerequisites.

I do take issue with lumping all remotely similar Talents into one big "tree" of cumulative prerequisites, because it constrains advancement and makes all characters interested in the same field advance exactly the same.

Yes, when Scyndria said "Make those talents in groups" , I threw up a little in my mouth. I do not think that lumping talents together is the way to go, but graphical representation, perhaps akin to a "Tech tree" for those familiar with such things from 4x gaming or similar, would be very nice.

Well, it was meant to be in a graphical way.

Hi guys,

Aptitude calc is now up - link is in my sig or in the thread dedicated to it on these forums

Regards

surak

Aptitudes have made a reappearance in the new beta, along with a Google docs spreadsheet you can use to calculate costs in another thread in this very forum.

I'm not a big fan of Aptitudes. They're a nice idea. The problem with DH1 is that each character class is locked into a specific table of advances and can't take anything outside of it. With BC/OW, they quite wisely opened up character creation so that any kind of character could take any advance. In order to maintain some character specialization and not make characters too samey, Aptitudes were introduced to affect the costs of advances. So the smart guy got a discount on smart skills and the shooty guy got a discount on shooty skills. Nice idea.

The problem is that, in practice, figuring out how much it costs to purchase anything takes way too long. You've got to flip to the character advance cost table, flip back to the skill or talent page to get its associated Aptitudes, its tier, then back to the table to figure out how much you need to pay to get it by cross referencing two tables half a book apart and your character sheet. Very clunky in actual practice.

This system would work great, however, if all of that cost calculation was done for you. The original DH2 beta had sort of a half measure - each Role had a table that was essentially the costs derived from assumed Aptitudes that you used to figure out the cost. For talents, the cost was listed along with the talent's description You still had to do some math, but everything you needed to know was right on one page.

Totally agree! I thought the aptitudes in Only War were clunky to use, and unfortunately the new Beta version is the same. I play in a group who also calculates their advances at the table, I am afraid. FFG have never really solved this one, though a further look at the Talent Trees might have been advised.

Is the solution for all the page flipping simply to duplicate the exp costs table into each chapter.

So the talents chapter has the talents costs at the start?

After all your altitudes don't change after character generation, so we already know what they are.

(For the example of spending exp on existing characters)

Aptitudes have made a reappearance in the new beta, along with a Google docs spreadsheet you can use to calculate costs in another thread in this very forum.

I'm not a big fan of Aptitudes. They're a nice idea. The problem with DH1 is that each character class is locked into a specific table of advances and can't take anything outside of it. With BC/OW, they quite wisely opened up character creation so that any kind of character could take any advance. In order to maintain some character specialization and not make characters too samey, Aptitudes were introduced to affect the costs of advances. So the smart guy got a discount on smart skills and the shooty guy got a discount on shooty skills. Nice idea.

The problem is that, in practice, figuring out how much it costs to purchase anything takes way too long. You've got to flip to the character advance cost table, flip back to the skill or talent page to get its associated Aptitudes, its tier, then back to the table to figure out how much you need to pay to get it by cross referencing two tables half a book apart and your character sheet. Very clunky in actual practice.

This system would work great, however, if all of that cost calculation was done for you. The original DH2 beta had sort of a half measure - each Role had a table that was essentially the costs derived from assumed Aptitudes that you used to figure out the cost. For talents, the cost was listed along with the talent's description You still had to do some math, but everything you needed to know was right on one page.

Totally agree! I thought the aptitudes in Only War were clunky to use, and unfortunately the new Beta version is the same. I play in a group who also calculates their advances at the table, I am afraid. FFG have never really solved this one, though a further look at the Talent Trees might have been advised.

Yeah, the talent trees weren't a bad idea, although the execution in the original beta certainly needed some work.

On the aptitudes front I don't have a real problem with them (although they can be a bit heavy to work through). However, I felt the original beta's fixed cost lists of skills and then just general talent costs was a more elegant solution to having a controlled system that people could still just buy from anywhere.

I prefer the more open system of Aptitudes to the 'channeling' effect of Trees; my only real complaint with Aptitudes from Only War (I still haven't had time to do more than skim Beta2 ) is that there are instances of the writers/designers making some head-scratching decisions about who gets what Aptitude. For instance, neither Catachans or Heavy Gunners get Strength as an Aptitude- zuh? And every Weapon Specialist gets Fieldcraft- even if they are from a Hive World and have never seen a forest before?

Are there similar goofy Aptitude 'glitches' in Beta2 ?

(And for the record I prefer Trees for psychic powers, since they don't have Prerequisites to get the powerful stuff the way Talents do.)

I wouldn't mind clumping related talents in their own sections and having a summery of xp costs on the character sheet. That would go some way to making the process easier if they are set on aptitudes.

The problem is that, in practice, figuring out how much it costs to purchase anything takes way too long. You've got to flip to the character advance cost table, flip back to the skill or talent page to get its associated Aptitudes, its tier, then back to the table to figure out how much you need to pay to get it by cross referencing two tables half a book apart and your character sheet. Very clunky in actual practice.

I feel like the flipping problem is easily solved- just make a second doc real quick. I feel like when my group moves over to this system, someone will spend two minutes scribbling all the charts onto a piece of notebook paper, and that'll be that. After that, it'll be glorious, because everyone can look at the Talents section at the same time, and not have to flip back to their Career charts.

EDIT: Oh wait, Characteristic and Skill advances are on the same page. It's only talents that are seperated- so yeah. Write the nine relevant numbers down for reference and you're golden.