If you want a simple rule, you may add (or subtract) your degrees of success from your target location roll. Called-shot type talents give you bonus degrees of success for the purposes of this.

It's not a bad idea, maybe a little bit too powerful?. May worth a try, anyway.

Or give weapons an Edge-factor.

Kind of a way to make good shots count.

With a called shot, you may "sell" 3 DoS for one of the following effects:

> damage +2

> damage gets Tearing Trait

> damage gets Razor-sharp trait
> damage gets Concussive Trait

> damage gets Sapping trait (yes, I'd like to re-introduce it & the Beta1's fatigue rules)

> get Vengeful (8)

That would make Called shots something strategically interesting.

And it would be backwards totally compatible.

Sounds good.

Would give it a worthy effect and add a lot of flexibility to a skilled shooter to simulate aiming for weaknesses.

Spots that "feel" tearing if hit, and such...

> damage +2

> damage gets Tearing Trait

> get Vengeful (8)

It doesn't speak well to your understanding of the game that you think these are different things.

(hint: mathematically, one of them will be the best)

> damage +2

> damage gets Tearing Trait

> get Vengeful (8)

It doesn't speak well to your understanding of the game that you think these are different things.

(hint: mathematically, one of them will be the best)

Just some examples.

Btw - sometimes +2 damage is better than Tearing.

Tearing lifts the average damage about the same amount, but not the max and min damage. Instead it hightens your RF chances.

Vengeful (8) does not increase your damage, but increases your RF chances more than tearing does.

Anything wrong about the maths here ?

Maybe a Talent like Eye of Vengeance could be re-worked to fit for Called SHots.

Anyway, I still think a half action would be sufficient.

I recall people talking about the opposed evasion test from beta 1 of the new rules. Idea called shots turn any dodge or parry into an opposed skill test. Also counting as you used an aim action for talents or weapon traits.

Called shot is a full action single attack at -20 that if you hit the DoS you get penalize any dodge or parry. Also it counts as you had aimed for Accurate or other bonuses.

Now we have talents that take this to a -10 and -0 already. So in effect a sniper can make a called shot and get bonus accuracy damage AND its harder to dodge the shot because of called shot which then hits the targeted location.

So now you called shot a head and its hard to dodge parry but you only get the single attack. Makes it useful for melee as well when they get bonuses.

I'd still prefer called shots to create an interesting additional effect.

If thats not possible, at least it should become a -10 half action instead of a -20 full action

Or, as I've mentioned before, make every single shot a called shot. It makes sense from a realistic standpoint, gets rid of a fairly useless action and talent/s, and gives single shot more utility versus semi and full auto.

If you make every shot a called shot, shots would need to be more difficult in general as you target for a smaller area.

I'd like to keep this different action for the "snipers factor".

I'd still prefer called shots to create an interesting additional effect.

If thats not possible, at least it should become a -10 half action instead of a -20 full action

Yes, I would prefer Called Shot to have some effect relative to the body part targeted, as it might in real life.

This could be something like a precise leg shot reducing movement, or even something as basic as increasing the weapon penetration as you fire at a weak piece of armor.

DoS on Called Shot into weapon penetration bonus could work well.

making called shots better affects the balance of the game if you make it too good especially with locational armor. As it seems all armor has either two types a all locations suit thats same AP all over and thus moot. Else a -1 armor helmet. Rarely you get the not wearing helmets or armored greaves/sleeves whatever enemy. First edition saw all out attack spam as the enemies early on has just as bad or worse WS/BS so everyone would burn reactions to try to get the damage in.

I think the easiest way of doing it is part of the aim action. If you aim the subsequent shot can be a called shot. Normally +10 aim and -20 called for -10. That way inaccurate and accurate weapons make the called shot worse or better. You can use all sorts of talents to bump this up further as well. No extra book keeping and checking DoS except with talents.

I really don't understand the appeal of ******* around with the called shot action itself. The called shot should just be a flat modifier to hit a smaller location, and nothing more.

The way to make Called Shots interesting is to actually make hitting specific locations on people interesting, rather than fairly samey, which it is at the moment.

A flat modifier is the boring way to go (balanced maybe, but boring - I dont want a boring game).

The idea to grant an effect depending on the hit area is nice (I think in SR5 they at least have something similar).

> Legs: target must succeed Toughness or get prone (stop a fleeing heretic)

> arms: target must succeed Toughness or lose whatever it hold in the hand

> Body: (or exotic areas at beasts etc.): deals 1 additional fatigue

> head: hit gets Vengeful (9) or Vengeful improved by 1 step if it already has it

I'm totally on board with it being kind of a dull way to handle things, but I just think that trying to approach this issue at a level as high as the called shot action itself is a bit silly. Making exceptions specifically designed to make shooting people in a specific spot interesting seems flawed when you could just, y'know, actually make hitting those specific spots interesting in the first place.

If this game has different hit locations it should make a good use out of it in my opinion.

And it still is a difficult decision of you make a called shout with a cool specific effect (or one that you need very much in a given situation), but you get a -30 penalty (-10 if you have a supporting talent) and it takes a full action (indirect another -10 as you cant aim in addition).

So its regular attack +20 (incl. aim) against specific -20.

The way to make Called Shots interesting is to actually make hitting specific locations on people interesting, rather than fairly samey, which it is at the moment.

This is true. If we went hit point free again we would have this.

A flat modifier is the boring way to go (balanced maybe, but boring - I dont want a boring game).

The idea to grant an effect depending on the hit area is nice (I think in SR5 they at least have something similar).

> Legs: target must succeed Toughness or get prone (stop a fleeing heretic)

> arms: target must succeed Toughness or lose whatever it hold in the hand

> Body: (or exotic areas at beasts etc.): deals 1 additional fatigue

> head: hit gets Vengeful (9) or Vengeful improved by 1 step if it already has it

What I believe they were trying to do with omitting this from Called Shot is mitigate some of the 'mechanics burden' that can slow down games.

(As a side point to that, they should probably have a 'heuristics' section that gives tips on keeping a list of common modifiers to your character's particular rolls.)

If they add a special effect to Called Shot, it would need to be something extremely simple to implement, but also not be good enough to completely eclipse a standard attack.

So what's something flavorful and simple that a legshot can give? Half movement? What about if the target absorbs most of the damage in armor? What about leg shots gotten without using Called Shot?

Now if there were some way to cause a minor Critical Effect outside of negative HP, that might have a use with Called Shot.

Concussive Shell half action load, Called Shot half action to legs? Special Ammo could be a useful interaction.

Definitely with you on the mechanics burden. You also have to see how it plays down the road with advanced characters. Say you have a high BS gunslinger. If we make called shot a half action as a normal type of attack. Then can they double called shot with two pistols, swords or even one handed basic weapons? If so then you have a situation where it comes down to who can debuff the enemy the fastest using called shots to disarm, knock them down, fatigue or other debuffing. Not only does balance get affected we have to take into account crunch required to just pull each combat off.

I think instead of using called shots to disable as a normal thing it should perhaps fall under a talent upgrade. As it represent a dedicated sniper who shoots to maim.

I still think it should be improved to work as a single shot, get aiming benefits easier and make it be the advanced snipers choice of attack. A couple talents turns it into a +0 standard attack and any secondary attack as part of the action resolves as a standard attack if able.

Making called shot give crippling bonuses is in the same vein as letting full auto weapons called shot as well. You stack certain combat roles to become the best choice. Rather then allowing them all to have a part. Single shot weapons typically do more damage and have bonuses like accurate. Burst guns put out more shots especially into a crowd and full auto ones can suppress. Change the dynamic too much and it gets skewed.

indeed giving them Crippling wouldnt be the worst idea.

Like, leave them as they are, but add Crippling (DoS as X) as effect of the attack.

And interesting was what I believe the Beta injury mechanic was intended to do, it was just too cumbersome as was.

Tom, Lynata, and others offered excellent alternatives to the Beta injury mechanic.

If Damage Types had an affect on injuries- supposedly why we have Critical Tables for different Damage Types- then the system could be interesting. The barrier is Wounds; nothing is "interesting" until reaching Critical injuries.

What if making a Called Shot were a flat modifier to WS/BS Tests, each 2 DoS being +1 on the Critical Injury Tables? This competes with Righteous Fury- do RF Critical results "stack" like standard Critical Injuries? I don't think they do, as the RF rules openly state that these effects of RF Critical results are not actual Critical Injuries, just the effects of "Emperor-guided" attacks. Why not then treat any Critical results as "stacking", regardless how they are generated?

You have a villain locked in combat and score RF- have RF tied to the DoS on the attack roll, +1 per 2 DoS. A Called Shot is made by your ally Moritat, and if the attack is successful (and not evaded) add +1 per 2 DoS on the Attack roll. Maybe make Called Shot require at least a Half Action Aim prior to making the CS WS/BS Test? All Critical injuries generated through RF and CS stack- oh, but this creates a problem with really "hefty" opponents, opponents 20+ Wounds.

Still, I think Tom has hit the nail on the head- "interesting" is where you hit your opponent and with what, and I think the easiest way to define what is Damage Types. Perhaps it would be good to take another look at the Critical Tables, rather than just copying/pasting (again), and look back to the Beta Tables and the Beta Fatigue mechanics as inspiration when doing so.

I also think Draconis13 has touched upon something worth considering.

Although the topic frequently mentioned was snipers, it could very well affect all "specialists."

Next, consider why Acolytes carry any variety of weapons: a ranged weapon of some type to excel or support in ranged combat, a melee weapon to at least defend oneself in close combat. But why do Players choose the weapons their Acolyte uses? Personal preference? Effectiveness and utility? A combination of these reasons?

Some weapons should be more effective, or have more utility. Perhaps then limiting Called Shot to single/Standard attacks is not such a bad thing.

A shotgun excels in close-range engagements though it has a limited ammo capacity, while a lasgun excels in long-range, protracted firefights. One is Damage Type , the other [E], and these Damage Types affect Critical Injuries in different ways. Perhaps just making the distinction between these affects through Damage Types more apparent would lend itself to the issue of weapon "balance", or what I refer to as utility, and would then result in a game meta that makes some sense within the context of the game's rules, ultimately leading to interesting Called Shot results?

I would have called shots either be just a modifier to standard attacks (-30)

or

something that gets a special bonus, like improving the chances on righteous fury with getting Vengeful (9) (or improving existing vengeful by 1 step)

I'd prefer the second option, as it would show the attack on a weak spot with a possible crit effect.

But even the first option would be much better than the current state.

Also, in its current definition - Eye of Vengeance wouldnt even be possible with Called Shots ? Why ??

I think the idea of called shots granting extra critical damage, even on Righteous Fury, at a +1 per degree of success gives them a use that wasn't really there before. It's not always useful, thought it certainly works for snipers (accurate weapons get it done) and it also works for semi-auto/full-auto on a number of other weapons.

I also think it should be a half action so you can use it with auto fire. The same rules apply to allies and enemies that apply to you.

So, I'm not sure that called shots need bonuses like this. Called shots can already get bonus damage by targeting a location with a lower armor value. Like that guy who's not wearing a helmet. I get effectively 4 bonus damage because he's not adding his flack to that location.