To start, yes I am aware that, again, this is Star Wars, but the focus of this game is not on the Jedi. That being admitted, I am a bit confused, anyway.

In EoTE, there isn't much Jedi stuff, and they toned the lightsaber back a bit, to make it a semblance more balanced. It's still a beast weapon, but lost Defensive and Deflection, which I found myself completely unable to argue; those are more the skill of the wielder than a quality of the weapon, except as used by that wielder. Also, the Skill is absent, so that its high damage is offset by a lack of hitting potential. Still in EotE, p.412, we get the very cool Forsaken Jedi foe. This bad@$$ has the skill (HE should), and his lightsaber still has Defection and Defensive, because he is talented enough to use them.

Now, when my beta book for AoR arrives, and I see how much is reprinted material, since you might not have EotE, I went to find their Jedi ally/foe write-up, and found p.224. The Jedi-in-Hiding makes me sad. This write-up is lacking the Lightsaber skill, even though the Jedi still has it, AND the lightsaber is back to its regular book write-up, missing the "I'm a Jedi, so this awesome weapon is even moreso!" attributes it should have. What's the deal? Players not getting them is one thing, but why is the write-up of this Jedi so much worse? Sure, I can say, in a game "he has those", but I kind of shouldn't have to.

As a second, can anyone give me a "this is better" for Force Emergent (p.192), compared to Exile from EotE? Some is the same, and others I wouldn't just say are better. Much of the best stuff is still at the bottom, as it should be, but what's really good in the middle?

Move is a copy/paste, I think, which is fine. Forsee is probably only as good as the GM allows, with maybe no planning, not wanting to give critical stuff away, and the everchanging nature of the future. Enhance seems good for a Force frog, and can touch on some other good skills, but I hoped it would help more with combat. It does, but just not in my way. Since my lightsabering would use Agility, though, it could fill the bill, along with Sense. Would have to look at their Jedi block, and see what he uses them for. I think I'm good with these, but thoughts are of course sought and appreciated.

Well, according to Sam and Jay, the Forsaken Jedi in the EotE core rulebook has "hidden talents" that provided Defensive and Deflection to his lightsaber, not that the lightsaber itself has those abilities by itself.

I do agree that the Jedi-in-Exile is pretty lackluster, and have mentioned the lack of a Lightsaber skill in the Proofreading forum in the thread for "Chapter X: Adversaries." Who knows, maybe the Beta updates will address some of these issues?

As for the Force Sensitive Emergent, it's more of an "blunt instrument" themed specialization with an emphasis on physicality and endurance (Toughened and Grit talents) where the Exile has more of a "learn as you but be crafty about it" theme to it. The Exile has a fair number of 'esoteric' Force talents, such as sensing and playing with people's emotions. The Emergent has a more direct approach, something I think is reflected nicely by the fact it offers a straight-line path to the much desired Force Rating talent, meaning it's a lot cheaper for an Emergent to get to Force Rating 2 than it is for the Exile.

As for Enhance, it does help with combat, but the trick also is that the designers need to be aware of how much the Sense power also helps with combat. Regardless of whether one uses Brawl or Agility for their attack roll, being able to have an extra Ability die plus two upgrades on the attack roll is a pretty hefty combination. So with Enhance, they needed to be careful to not break the game by having it offer too good of a combat boost, although if your PC focuses on Brawl, then Enhance is surprisingly good since one of it's Control Upgrades lets you add Successes/Advantages to Brawl checks, and can be combined with the Ongoing Effect to roll another ability die due it being a Brawn skill. Toss in the Pressure Point talent, and you can really go to town on some poor slob with that combo.

Why should the emergent be 'better'?

And how is 'better' decided upon? I imagine it is up to the individual player.

I like the speed at which you get the FR +1 talent in the FS:Em tree, but I think I like the style of play set up in the FS:Ex tree better.

I don't think either one is superior to the other. Though that might depends on the style of game your GM tends to run.

Why should the emergent be 'better'?

Better, in this case is a why, as in "why would I take this?" Not in a duragatory way, but if you have the first book, and I doubt that the Age of Rebellion one is meant to be completely separate, or replace EotE, and you have access to both options, what makes this one what you choose?

With an existing option, another, different one might've seemed, to some, as unnecessary, so if a player wanted to be a Force-user, what do you like about Emergent over Exile? Sorry for the poor choice of words.

Getting to the better Force Rating sooner is a nice bonus. I also like some of the boosts to skills.

In the case of "why take the Emergent?", the main reason is going to be "because I can get to Force Rating 2 a lot faster than I can with the Exile!" The Emergent is probably more suited to characters that are planning on getting into combat, since it offers ranks in Toughened and Grit. The Indistinguishable talent is a nice touch for those Force-sensitives wanting to ensure they can keep a low profile without having to invest in Deception or Skulduggery.

As kaosoe mentioned, the Exile has a lot of more interesting options in terms of their talents, but it's really not geared to be a front-line combatant type of specialization, making it less appealing to those character builds that are focused more on combat (Bounty Hunters, Hired Guns, and Soldiers particularly), where the Emergent might not have the same appeal for a character build that's focused a bit more on trickery.

Not having my AoR book in front of me (it arrives later today, hopefully), since Force Sensitive Emergent is also a talent tree separate from the FSE. I'm assuming the "fastest" way to get a FR of 2 is to simply purchase both trees concurrently. Sure it will cost about 50xp to do so, but then they have a FR2 and a potential to go up to FR4 by working both trees.

I can't comment on the "Jedi in Exile" as I've not seen it yet... I forsee more comments coming soon...

Not having my AoR book in front of me (it arrives later today, hopefully), since Force Sensitive Emergent is also a talent tree separate from the FSE. I'm assuming the "fastest" way to get a FR of 2 is to simply purchase both trees concurrently. Sure it will cost about 50xp to do so, but then they have a FR2 and a potential to go up to FR4 by working both trees.

I can't comment on the "Jedi in Exile" as I've not seen it yet... I forsee more comments coming soon...

Fortunately, this isn't how the Force Sensitive: Exile and Force Sensitive: Emergent specializations work. Both trees grant you Force Rating: 1. The trees do not grant you a bonus to your force rating if you were to already have one.

Okay... But having both trees would mean a potential force rating of 3, rather than 4. Still worth exploring...

Okay... But having both trees would mean a potential force rating of 3, rather than 4. Still worth exploring...

Indeed. You can tell a pretty cool story going through both trees.

I believe that it was the GSA first-look at the AoR beta that outright said as much, that both FS Exiles and Emergents may come to the Rebellion, but the Emergent is more likely or predominant among those in the Alliance... and I see parallels to the Force's gradually changing depiction in the original trilogy, i.e. how it progresses to "you barely see more than hand gestures and subtle things happening"* (in a "did that really happen?" way) to "Luke telekinetically pulling his lightsaber (albeit in desperation and against a wampa), Yoda telekinetically lifting up Luke's X-wing, and Duel on Cloud City" being "Luke hops around the place while Vader chucks stuff at him"... to what we'll get in "Return of the Jedi".

Not sure how "RotJ-style" really can differ from Emergent, seeing as we really don't get much else new of the Force in that movie besides Palpatine's Force lightning (all I remember of the Force from that movie was "Luke as combat stunt" -- aka more points in Lightsaber, Enhance, Influence, Move, Sense and any talents that help with deflecting blasters and/or lightsaber combat -- plus his telekinetically lifting of C-3PO and the Force ghosts) besides Palpatine's Force lightning, but maybe that's why F&D is more of "the Force book, period"...?

Gotta say, I'm actually really sold on multiple Force specializations only being needed for more talents and Force Rating (by going to the bottom of the tree) while powers just need Force Rating 1+. Thanks FFG!

I still wouldn't be opposed to a few Force Skills (like, say Force Lightning) requiring more than just a Force Rating. Having it require either certain Specializations, or - better - certain Talents that only appear in certain Specializations, would be appropriate.

Not to diss, but the Dark Side wouldn't have much of a temptation if the cooler dark powers required certain Talents, only found in specific Specs. I've hated for a decade+ when Force Lightning went from "only the most powerful and learned Dark Side practitioners can manifest the Force in such a visible and violent way" to "Force Lightning, that dark power that anyone can use; it's probably the proof that you have gone to the Dark Side." I liked it in Star Wars Revised, when the feat had a really high level cap, and most players didn't play to that high. The Emperor could do it, but few others, and it wasn't Vader having metal hands that stopped him; even he wasn't that knowledgeable (and the attack was pure Force, not "lightning/electricity". Now, thanks to several fun games, everyone needs to be able to use it, because it's so iconic of the Dark Side.

Okay, whining over. Having babbled that, it might not be good to have some cool powers require several hoops.

I agree with the above. Force Lightening is one of the most difficult things to achieve for a Dark Side practitioner - it should be so again, with SWR.

Agree with the above also.

Although I did use Donovan's Injure force power as force lightning against my players, they got somewhat upset... but a triumph and a mad rancor fixed the situation for them it worked tremendously well, even if they were merely wounded for 5-6 wounds each, thank the force that power has such low damage base.

Not to diss, but the Dark Side wouldn't have much of a temptation if the cooler dark powers required certain Talents, only found in specific Specs.

Actually, it would have a temptation. If you want to use the power, you'll be tempted to buy-in to a "Dark Side Specialization" to get access. Once you buy-in for access to one thing, the biggest cost is already spent, so now it's not much to buy one more Talent for that next cool trick. And then the next...

I can see that, but the whole "call on it right now, I know it's wrong, but I can make it up tomorrow" thing, like Exar Kun saving his life, isn't so well illustrated by willingly paying XP into a path that you, the player, knows is Dark. Sometimes, at least to me, it's better when "there seemed no other path", where the player and character HAVE to dabble with darkness, rather than the player just wanting a Force power that actually does a bunch of damage, and they'll "rationalize" it in game, is what I was meaning.

And then of course, there's Emerald Judgment...

And then of course, there's Emerald Judgment...

Emerald Fire/Electric Judgement? Yeah. Had a player in Saga that came to the table with a character that had Many Shades of the Force linked to Force Lightning, and a whole suite of Aing-Tii-flavored powers and abilities. Oh and he was a 4-armed 4-saber wielder.

I said, "no." Just, "no."

Agree with the above also.

Although I did use Donovan's Injure force power as force lightning against my players, they got somewhat upset... but a triumph and a mad rancor fixed the situation for them it worked tremendously well, even if they were merely wounded for 5-6 wounds each, thank the force that power has such low damage base.

I'm looking forward to trying it out on my PCs soon, so very soon...

Emerald Fire/Electric Judgement? Yeah. Had a player in Saga that came to the table with a character that had Many Shades of the Force linked to Force Lightning, and a whole suite of Aing-Tii-flavored powers and abilities. Oh and he was a 4-armed 4-saber wielder.

I said, "no." Just, "no."

Gentlebeings, this is where we got "The Force in Edge of the Empire" from.

Off-topic, but since it was mentioned...

Been playing around a bit more with Injure, and I think I'm going to up the damage a bit but also take away the "ignores Soak Value" thing. Also splitting up the "action denial" aspect so that it's two separate Control Upgrades, one to deny Actions (staggered) and another to deny Maneuvers (immobilized).

Jeger or Away, if you're interested in experimenting with the tweaked version in your games, shoot me a PM and I'll send you a copy of it.

The jedi in the AoR Beta may simply be suffering from good ole typo syndrome. In regards to the talk about force lightning and other rare force powers, I'm thinking that the whole light side dark side thing will be done in FaD sort of as a mix of obligation and duty, where dark side brings things up like obligation but with a more direct affect on your actions and light side functioning sort like duty where doing so much light side may help redeem dark side or grant temporary bonuses to the characters and both determine what new force powers you can use. But that's just my theory, I'd like to hear what the rest of you think.

I'll ask here, rather than start a whole new thread for something most people won't care about; in EoTE, the lightsaber says you can pick between Brawn and Agility when using it. This lets you choose to be a more mobile, quick-striking character, or a slower, more defensive one, and either way works. (Old Obi-Wan Kenobi isn't so strong now, and never really was, while Darth Vader's diminished Force powers, coupled with his cybernetics, makes him much slower, and less dodgy/cartwheely). AoR doesn't mention that, at all. They are even more "this isn't the weapon you're looking for" than EotE was. Is this still how I am to assume lightsabers work, without a skill telling me the characteristic? It's a beta, and could be an easy, accidental omission, so no biggie, but I'm curious if that has changed?

More than likely the same sidebar from EotE will show up in the final AoR corebook.